Guns

  • Thread starter Talentless
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Which position on firearms is closest to your own?

  • I support complete illegality of civilian ownership

    Votes: 120 15.5%
  • I support strict control.

    Votes: 244 31.5%
  • I support moderate control.

    Votes: 164 21.2%
  • I support loose control.

    Votes: 81 10.5%
  • I oppose control.

    Votes: 139 17.9%
  • I am undecided.

    Votes: 27 3.5%

  • Total voters
    775
Are you suggesting that a society will have more crime if a society leans towards more corporatism?

I don't know that much about Corporatism, but according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the Countries of Norway and Sweden have leaned more towards corporatism. So would these Countries have more gun violence than the United States?
Do they refer to the socio-political or economic planning definitions for corporatism? Based on what I know of their systems they are using the socio-political definition. I'm talking about the economic planning aspect, also sometimes called neo-corporatism, when you attempt to boost economic growth by having political and corporate entities partner up. US financial policy is decided by a central bank, run by the heads of banks, that frequently meet and work with the executive and legislstive branches of government.

There are many other factors as well, as I listed corporatism as one item in a list of some examples, not even a comprehensive list of all causes. By pointing at different countries you already introduce multiple variables that you ignore and then by picking at just one issue you ignore multiple, already stated variables.

Just above, Keef mentions that gun violence is down in the United States.

Does this mean that the US has been leaning further away from corporatism, over the last 10-20 years, which has reduced gun violence?

Or does it mean that the US has leaned more towards corporatism, over the last 10-20 years, which has reduced gun violence?
He also mentioned that gun ownership is up. Again, far more variables at play here to be able to narrow it down to one. By that rationale it could be argued that the effect of increased corporatism has been nullified by increased gun ownership and thus less regulations on guns is the answer.

Would you be willing to say that, or would you rather step back and say we can't nitpick one variable?
 
When people's opportunities are taken away, they create their own. We have seen this recently happen with 30-40 ish white males who's jobs such as assembly work etc. where taken away and moved over seas.

More or less a meth epidemic bloomed in certain states, because it is an illegal activity violence often accompanies the trade.

Now if you solely want to look at the mass shooting deals, that is a completely different issue imo and our mental health system needs a good looking over. I'm pretty much convinced those perpetrators have problems that instead of being addressed, pills are simply thrown down their throat.(I could go into my education rant at this point but I'll bite my tongue)
 
I'm not sure you understand the difference between corporatism and capitalism after that last sentence.

I'm suggesting we get government out of the business of business, let capitalism and free markets take hold, and stop creating economic situations where crime becomes a necessity for some as public policy.

I understand the difference perfectly. Perhaps you should define "corporatism" for us, in the manner you are using it, and then explain the direct link between reduced corporatism and reduced crime.
 
Am I on your ignore list Johnny? :lol:

Anyway, here we go with the exact right approach every school should take :ill:

Suspend a seven year old for being a boy, sounds great.
School spokeswoman Bethanne Bradshaw told WAVY-TV: "A pencil is a weapon when it is pointed at someone in a threatening way and gun noises are made.

"Some children would consider it threatening, who are scared about shootings in schools or shootings in the community."
 
Well I'm not going to speak for FK, but I gave you an explicit example of how(semantics aside) things can go a-rye. If you don't see the point I guess you won't, but his view is valid all the same.
 
When people's opportunities are taken away, they create their own. We have seen this recently happen with 30-40 ish white males who's jobs such as assembly work etc. where taken away and moved over seas.

More or less a meth epidemic bloomed in certain states, because it is an illegal activity violence often accompanies the trade.

Now if you solely want to look at the mass shooting deals, that is a completely different issue imo and our mental health system needs a good looking over. I'm pretty much convinced those perpetrators have problems that instead of being addressed, pills are simply thrown down their throat.(I could go into my education rant at this point but I'll bite my tongue)

Well I'm not going to speak for FK, but I gave you an explicit example of how(semantics aside) things can go a-rye. If you don't see the point I guess you won't, but his view is valid all the same.

I didn't realize this was for me. I don't see a link between corporatism and your response. Jobs are moving overseas because of free market capitalism. Labour and materials are far cheaper overseas so production moves over there and shipping costs to move goods to Western markets are next to nothing. I don't see a connection between a meth epidemic and corporatism either, sorry.
 
Ignoring problems is always a good thing, that way we move forward quite easily.

I don't care about whatever word you want to use, or fk, facts are facts. I'll make it simple and repeat myself as it seems necessary. Take away people's prospects and they will make their own. Give them liberty and they will choose it. it's very simple tbh.
 
Ignoring problems is always a good thing, that way we move forward quite easily.

I don't care about whatever word you want to use, or fk, facts are facts. I'll make it simple and repeat myself as it seems necessary. Take away people's prospects and they will make their own. Give them liberty and they will choose it. it's very simple tbh.

Yeah, still not seeing it.
 
I knew you wouldn't.

Others might be curious about it though, we started out as a country with a set of laws that would allow freedom and prosperity, through the years and accelerating now, we have laws specifically taking both of those things away. It has everything to do with big business not only lobbying but at this point running the gov, it has to do with things such as the epa who can write rules and lock you out of any chance to prosper...

There should be no surprise the result is violence.
 
I knew you wouldn't.

Others might be curious about it though, we started out as a country with a set of laws that would allow freedom and prosperity, through the years and accelerating now, we have laws specifically taking both of those things away. It has everything to do with big business not only lobbying but at this point running the gov, it has to do with things such as the epa who can write rules and lock you out of any chance to prosper...

There should be no surprise the result is violence.

You also started out in 1776 when most people were either farmers or small merchants. In case you haven't noticed most people aren't small farmers or merchants and it's 2013. I don't question that government is too big in your country or mine, I am only questioning the link between corporatism and violence that you drew and still awaiting a more detailed explaination of what you believe corporatism to be and how reducing it is linked to a reduction in crime.
 
Give people an honest chance and they will take it, keep choking them with a stacked deck and act surprised that crime rises?

Seriously, I can't see how you miss the boat so badly. Bringing up a year 200 plus years ago has zero meaning, people are being robbed of life and you think it's just fine and dandy. Lets smack them around some more and put them in line.
 
Give people an honest chance and they will take it, keep choking them with a stacked deck and act surprised that crime rises?

Seriously, I can't see how you miss the boat so badly. Bringing up a year 200 plus years ago has zero meaning, people are being robbed of life and you think it's just fine and dandy. Lets smack them around some more and put them in line.

I brought up 200 years ago because you brought up your country's founding..try to follow along.

Your problem is you are arguing in generalities, which can mean anything to anyone at any particular time. I never said anything was fine and dandy, all I said was I don't see the link between corporatism and crime. Feel free to point it out to me with some specifics. I'm all ears.

Meanwhile, take a crack at explaining this, in relation to corporatism rise or decline in the last 20 years. Not sure anyone would argue that corporatism is down in the last 2 decades but crime seems to be so, and dramatically, an apparent contradiction:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/08/us/study-gun-homicide/?hpt=hp_t2
 
I already pointed it out.

You will never see it, maybe because you have not been in business and ran up against the machine, maybe it's because you have never seen the people in need, maybe it's because you like to think you are smarter then you are.

I keep up just fine thank you 👍
 
I already pointed it out.

You will never see it, maybe because you have not been in business and ran up against the machine, maybe it's because you have never seen the people in need, maybe it's because you like to think you are smarter then you are.

I keep up just fine thank you 👍

Au contraire, I've been self employed all my life but for a brief few years of insanity. And with the work I do now, I am intimately involved with local Community Housing on a daily basis and into the homes of several hundred social assistance recipients every year. I see people in need all the time. I still fail to see the link between corporatism and crime and since you decline to do anything but throw out a few meaningless generalities, I can only assume you have nothing to back up your assertions.
 
I have no intentions of arguing against you over a word, didn't I say that several posts back?

You will never see what you don't want to see, I know I am right as I've seen it first hand as have others on this site. Keep in your bubble and think it's all ok, I already knew you thought ignoring the corruptness we are plagued with was ok as long as you get yours.

It gets old always having to repeat yourself but here we go, there will always be a criminal element but it's much much larger then it needs to be atm, we create a whole bunch of it with unfair treatment of people.

BTW there is nothing general about how our government forces people down and takes away their liberties, nope, it's not general at all.
 
I have no intentions of arguing against you over a word, didn't I say that several posts back?

You will never see what you don't want to see, I know I am right as I've seen it first hand as have others on this site. Keep in your bubble and think it's all ok, I already knew you thought ignoring the corruptness we are plagued with was ok as long as you get yours.

It gets old always having to repeat yourself but here we go, there will always be a criminal element but it's much much larger then it needs to be atm, we create a whole bunch of it with unfair treatment of people.

BTW there is nothing general about how our government forces people down and takes away their liberties, nope, it's not general at all.

Well, if you've seen as have others on this site, I say we forward your post to Wikipedia and have them throw it in with their articles on corporatism. No further proof is needed on the link between corporatism and crime:sly:
 
Jobs are moving overseas because of free market capitalism.
Wait, when did America get free market capitalism back?

Labour and materials are far cheaper overseas so production moves over there and shipping costs to move goods to Western markets are next to nothing.
If government weren't involved in affecting the costs related to labor and materials perhaps those jobs could have stayed here. As an example, look at GE. Currently GE is slowly moving their appliance manufacturing back to the Louisville, KY plant. They have found that the more they send out of the country the higher their quality complaints and service calls have become. It closed in on a point where the benefits of outsourcing labor were being outweighed by the consequences. No matter how much cheaper it is, if it nearly kills your sales and marketshare it is a waste.

Now, one would think that GE would look at this lesson and learn from it. Where possible, they have. Aero and medical is still in the US. But in recent years they shutdown every single lightbulb factory and moved them overseas. Free market capitalism? On the surface, sure. It is cheaper to make new lightbulbs overseas. But why is it? The factory closings coincided with new lightbulb regulations and various energy subsidies. For GE it became more profitable because they needed to produce CFL bulbs. They had to meet regulations. CFL bulbs contain mercury, which has a various job safety rules tied to it, but not overseas. But even bulbs not regulated went completely CFL. Why? Because for producing energy efficient products there are tax subsidies. In fact, remember when everyone was upset to discover GE, outsourcing kings, paid no taxes and even got a massive tax refund? We paid them hundreds of millions to send thousands of jobs overseas. We created the environment that made outsourcing preferable. And it was all done with GE CEO Jeff Immelt working as a jobs advisor to the president.

Now, out of those thousands of jobs lost, would you suggest that none of those people turned to crime? None of them turned to drugs or alcohol, resulting in the other points I listed that you don't have issue with?

On the other side is what should be the triumph of free market capitalism, where anyone can produce a better product than the current goods and services on the market. The problem is that when new barrier of entry rules are proposed the big companies lobby for them. It will cost them, but if it means less new competition, it is a great thing. This most recently has been going on with the Internet tax that Congress is looking at. It is supposed to be a fairness rule to help small businesses, but it is being lobbied for by the largest online retailers, like Amazon. Why would Amazon want to have to do this? Because they developed the software that anyone can buy from them to handle it. They want a new barrier of entry that is overcome by paying them. If this happens a small business owner trying to create an online retail presence could not compete with Amazon without paying Amazon first. Similarly, despite talk in public, the primary lobbying efforts for our new healthcare law was done by the very companies it was supposed to regulate. Insurance companies were upset in front of cameras, but striking deals to be the offered of the insurance exchange plans. You can't compete with health insurance now because they are part of the system.

So to get into an existing business many cases require you to have tons of money to get started or be willing to strike some under the table deals that may even put employees or customers at risk.

And all the many government/corporate tweakings in the market and economy lead to things like bubbles in certain markets, and all bubbles burst, taking out a lot of people with it.

Now, can I draw a very direct line from corporatist actions to a specific crime? Not without tons of time and money. Can it be argued that certain corporatist actions harm the economy more than help, which can lead to individuals becoming part of the other groups that no one disagrees are causes of crime? I believe so. You may disagree. If so, fine. It is virtually impossible to give you very specific examples before all of this is recent debate is long forgotten. Consider yourself to have won this point, or whatever makes you feel better. I will concede that the current path we are on is one that has been debated amongst economists for centuries, and still is today.

Meanwhile, take a crack at explaining this, in relation to corporatism rise or decline in the last 20 years. Not sure anyone would argue that corporatism is down in the last 2 decades but crime seems to be so, and dramatically, an apparent contradiction:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/08/us/study-gun-homicide/?hpt=hp_t2
Hey, the past called. It suggested you learn how to scroll up and save us all the trouble of rehashing something GTSail and I went over eight hours ago. It all even started with Keef linking an LA Times article that discussed the very study your CNN article does.

I won't bother rewriting my entire post. I'll just suggest a little statistical reasoning on your part might make you realize that this is now you using broad generalizations to try to make your point. I never said corporatism, by itself, is the result of all crime. And I know you are smart enough to understand that.
 
Wait, when did America get free market capitalism back?
...snip....

Good answer and I agree for the most part, except for the sarcasm at the end of course. I didn't read your earlier discussion but my question wasn't about why crime has gone down but yes towards the broad generalization that corporatism has gone up dramatically while crime has gone down dramatically.

However, I still don't see a link between corporatism and crime. Law abiding citizens don't go about committing crimes because they lost their job. I think one has to have a predisposition to that type of thing, job or no job and if you commit crimes because you got laid off, chances are probably extremely high that you were engaging in criminal activity already. I know a few people that sort of fall into that boat but they also have a tendency to work in jobs that are nearly bulletproof, mostly working for the city or provincial government. Yes I can see a scenario where a handful of individuals commit some crimes who are frustrated and angry about the whole thing, but that's more anecdotal than statistically significant, although I could be wrong.

Intuitively I'd like to believe it's true, I just believe that the factors that make someone a criminal involve so much more than just being laid off from work.
 
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To me the focus is more about what arora was saying, that when the deck is stacked against you to begin with it's often easier to turn to drugs/crime rather than deal with the system the way it is. It's a bit of a one size fits none way of doing things.
 
Good answer and I agree for the most part, except for the sarcasm at the end of course. I didn't read your earlier discussion but my question wasn't about why crime has gone down but yes towards the broad generalization that corporatism has gone up dramatically while crime has gone down dramatically.
The question oversimplifies the situation. If crime only had one cause it would be a legitimate question, but a combination of things could be lowering gun crime despite a growing war on drugs and other factors.

However, I still don't see a link between corporatism and crime. Law abiding citizens don't go about committing crimes because they lost their job. I think one has to have a predisposition to that type of thing, job or no job and if you commit crimes because you got laid off, chances are probably extremely high that you were engaging in criminal activity already.
Predisposed does not mean you will just do it no matter what. Not everyone predisposed to behavior does it no matter what. If so, we could legislate that alcoholics do treatment before having their first drink, suicidal individuals be put in solitary confinement no matter how happy they are, and so on. Predisposed means that when the opportunity presents itself you are more likely to see it as a necessity.

And we should keep in mind that crime comes in many forms. And while white collar crime is not related to guns, if you want evidence of criminal disposition, studies show CEOs have a rate of psychopathy four times higher than the average population. This plays perfectly into the corporatism model of behavior, where they work with politicians (I want to see how they test) to profit quickly while creating long term harm that wouldn't have been possible without the political influence.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/06/14/why-some-psychopaths-make-great-ceos/


Yes I can see a scenario where a handful of individuals commit some crimes who are frustrated and angry about the whole thing, but that's more anecdotal than statistically significant, although I could be wrong.
Yes, it is impossible to point out statistical significance. Even if you have a functional addict who goes deeper into his addiction after losing his job and reverts to theft to feed his addiction it would be near impossible to determine if it is the addiction or the job loss that is to blame. Of course, this circles back around to my other points about mental health and addiction.

Intuitively I'd like to believe it's true, I just believe that the factors that make someone a criminal involve so much more than just being laid off from work.
I do to, which is why I had a list of things to be looked at. The causes of violence are complex, which is why we aren't interested in fixing them. The tools of violence are simple to point at and attack.
 
*snip*...And we should keep in mind that crime comes in many forms. And while white collar crime is not related to guns, if you want evidence of criminal disposition, studies show CEOs have a rate of psychopathy four times higher than the average population. This plays perfectly into the corporatism model of behavior, where they work with politicians (I want to see how they test) to profit quickly while creating long term harm that wouldn't have been possible without the political influence.

I'm just suggesting that you haven't shown a direct link between increased gun violence in societies that are increasingly leaning towards "corporatism".

Your example of CEO's with higher rates of psychopathy doesn't get us there. Even if you are implying that all CEO's are criminals:lol:, because there will be CEO's in a society whether the society leans towards more "corporatism" or not. Pure capitalism has just as many CEO's, maybe more!:scared:

I'm not saying that I think that a society should evolve towards or away from "corporatism", I just saying that I don't see the direct link between it and gun violence. In some societies, it almost seems to reduce crime (but again I don't see a direct link, so I wouldn't want to say that "corporatism" reduces crime).

Respectfully,
GTsail
 
Yeah, I kind of already conceded the point, since you all are only willing to accept specific, direct examples.
 
If your audio is up at work then I would say NSFW. Crazy.

That is how guns should be used. Lol



Not even remotely close.

That video and the man shooting the gun are both idiotic ... to say the least.

* I'm hoping you posted this as a joke ... I really am *
 
Yeah, I kind of already conceded the point, since you all are only willing to accept specific, direct examples.

I would not concede the point, I was looking at a very specific area where crime is created imo. To cast it aside in a broader sweep would not be just.
 
I would not concede the point, I was looking at a very specific area where crime is created imo. To cast it aside in a broader sweep would not be just.

Well, the demand became for a direct specific link, while pre-emptively tossing any examples of cases aside as anecdotal. At that point it requires sociological studies of economic systems, and as the economic debate is a hundred year old one it would be impossible to satisfy the demand. At that point it had been far sidetracked off the larger point (literally to the point of the fact there was a larger point being forgotten) and was headed off-topic as a whole. By conceding that I can't meet their demand (who could?) I'm trying to save the larger point, that guns are not the problem, from being shoved aside.

Maybe if I threw around terms like military-industrial complex...
 
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Maybe if I threw around terms like military-industrial complex...

I forgot about the thread :embarrassed:

We could also throw around the commerce clause and how it's been used over the years(mostly starting after the early 40's). It would lead us right back to the specific gun issue at hand as well ;)
 
So what all happened down in Houston at the Annual NRA Convention ... some lenghty videos, but some good stuff.

Wayne LaPierre rips in to Obama
Chris Cox gives a speech
Glenn Beck address
Words from David Keene ... NRA President (soon to be former)
Senator Ted Cruz speaks
Jim Porter ... incoming NRA President
Governor Rick Perry speaks out
Judge Jeanine Parro
Sarah Palin speaks

The Obozo administration is set to sign the U.N. Arms Trade Treaty.

This fight is still not over. Continue to keep those calls going to your state senators / congressman. Voice your opinion, don't be afraid to let them know how you feel.
 

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