Hamas wins Palestinian election

  • Thread starter Zardoz
  • 113 comments
  • 2,511 views
Wow, this makes three threads about this that I have seen.

I'll say the same here though, I don't see teh difference between now and when Arafat was in power. Okay, maybe Hamas won't pretend to want peace. That might be a good thing since Israel won't be letting their guard down.
 
FoolKiller
...That might be a good thing ..

FOXNews disagrees:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,182842,00.html

A Hamas government, without Fatah as a moderating force, would greatly complicate Abbas' efforts to restart peace talks. The Islamic militants, who carried out dozens of suicide bombings and seek Israel's destruction, have said they oppose peace talks and will not disarm. Israel and the United States refuse to deal with Hamas...

...Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the U.S. position on Hamas as a terrorist organization has not changed despite the election outcome...
 
This is a nightmare. I have no idea why they were allowed to vote for hamas. What did they think would happen? This is like letting your kids play with a loaded shotgun and thinking they are to stupid to find the trigger much less pull it...
 
Zardoz
FOXNews disagrees:
Let me rephrase my comment. At least Israel won't back down some for a "truce" anymore. There won't be a two-faced government like Arafat had.

Yes, that is a bad thing because it will probably mean war but the guard won't be lowered for peace just so that a bunch of civilians can get blwon up.

THE ED3
This is a nightmare. I have no idea why they were allowed to vote for hamas. What did they think would happen? This is like letting your kids play with a loaded shotgun and thinking they are to stupid to find the trigger much less pull it...
Because the UN recognizes Hamas as a legitimate political party, something the US and Israel (and there are others I am sure) refuse to do.
 
The un is totaly worthless imo. I wish we would stop bull****ing around and take our 22% elsewhere. hamas is clearly a terrorist group. 👎
 
There are obviously a lot of Palestinians who don't think so.

Remember, when a voting population feels threatened by outside threats, they will always side with the political party that takes the hard line against their enemies. Lots of examples there, of which Iran is only the most recent.

In Israel, that's the ultra-right wing hawks, and in Palestine, that is now apparently Hamas. Tensions on both sides hve never eased... a lot of Israelis think that some politicians see keeping the tension high as a way of staying in power. I guess that works to Hamas' advantage, too.

Eitherb way, this spells trouble.
 
niky
...Lots of examples there..

That part of the world simply will not settle down. The problems of the Middle East defy solutions, and only worsen as time goes by.

You wonder how long it can go on, and how much worse it can get. We all wish we could just turn our backs and ignore the whole area, but in a diabolically cruel twist of fate, those people are sitting on the great bulk of the most precious commodity on this planet, so we have no choice but to deal with them and their unsolvable problems.
 
FoolKiller
Because the UN recognizes Hamas as a legitimate political party, something the US and Israel (and there are others I am sure) refuse to do.

The US, Israel, and the EU recognizes Hamas as a terrorist group. But, the Mainstream Media will only tell you about the first two...
 
Viper Zero
The US, Israel, and the EU recognizes Hamas as a terrorist group. But, the Mainstream Media will only tell you about the first two...

True, but it's the opinion of the US that matters more, as they're Israel's primary backer. Hopefully Israel will reconsider if Hamas changes its tone, but it doesn't look like Hamas will ever change.

How the Palestinians could have voted so foolishly defies expectations... oh wait, we (the Philippines) elected an actor and a high school dropout to the Presidency... :indiff:
 
Viper Zero
The US, Israel, and the EU recognizes Hamas as a terrorist group. But, the Mainstream Media will only tell you about the first two...
Not true... the BBC, for example, make it quite clear (on the web and on nightly news programmes like 'Newsnight') that the EU, the UK, the US and Israel share a common stance on dealing with Hamas...

The irony is, that despite the fact that the EU are the biggest financial donors to the Palestinian Authority, it is Israel themselves that play a crucial financial/economic role in the future of any Palestinian state, therefore any government, including the new Hamas government, will have to deal with Israel atleast to some extent, whether they like it or not...
 
If the Palestinians were bad before, now they'll get a little worse - but I don't see it as getting a whole lot worse. I can almost feel the rest of the world dropping what little sympathy it might have had for them.

These people are amazing. Electing a mother of two suicide bombers even though she has no political experience to office? They're obviously not thinking straight.

On the news last night one of the palastinians was on camera during some sort of riot/demonstration/parade, she said "we needed a change, the other guys just weren't getting the job done." And by getting the job done she means they didn't kill all of the jews - though the reporter didn't ask her what she meant.

This is a nightmare. I have no idea why they were allowed to vote for hamas. What did they think would happen? This is like letting your kids play with a loaded shotgun and thinking they are to stupid to find the trigger much less pull it...

It's a democracy - that's why they're allowed to vote for terrorists. We could vote for terrorists over here too.
 
I feel sorry for any reasonable Palestinian who wants peace. Because in this case, it seems like the majority of Palestinians are illogical morons who want to continue the cycle of violence. I'll be surprised if any good comes from this.
 
Just heard. Israeli elections are in May or so. Who wants to bet that they're going to vote all the hardliners back into power?
 
I've just got to comment on the blindly pro-Israel stuff I'm seeing in this thread...
1. "Terrorism" is just a politically loaded way of framing armed resistance used by the most powerful forces in the international arena. Both the United States and Israel itself were created by "terrorist" organizations (Continental congress? Joseph Stern gang? both killed civillians who disagreed with them)

2. Israeli forces have killed far more Palestinian civillians than vice versa.

3. Israeli methods may seem more humane (helicopters vs suicide bombs, for instance) but the difference is really a product of the wealth of the israelis and the poverty of the palestinians (give Hamas some tomahawk cruise missles and I'm sure they'd abandon suicide bombs...)

4. The purpose of the state of Israel (particularly as articulated by the Israeli right) is explicitly racist and ethnocentric--Israel is a state for Jews, with all other ethnic groups treated as second class citizens. Look at the flag, for cryin' out loud!

5. Israeli Ecomomic and military dominance of the region prevent the Emergence of a viable Palestinian Economy and hinders the emergence of civil society, as well as keeping Palestinians in poverty.

6.Daily unneccesary humiliations of normal palestinian Civilains do more to prolong this conflict than Hamas could in their wildest dreams (IDF broadcasting pornography in Jenin? how does that help Israeli security?)

I could go on, but I'll spare you...

By voting for Hamas, Palestinians show that they won't be terrorized out of their democratic rights by threats and bullying from the US and Israel.

If you don't want the palestinians to have thier choice of governments, then you don't want democracy!!!
 
BuzzOrHowl
I've just got to comment on the blindly pro-Israel stuff I'm seeing in this thread...

Don't assume it's blind.

1. "Terrorism" is just a politically loaded way of framing armed resistance used by the most powerful forces in the international arena. Both the United States and Israel itself were created by "terrorist" organizations (Continental congress? Joseph Stern gang? both killed civillians who disagreed with them)

You need to look up the word terrorism. It has a definition - one you clearly don't know.

2. Israeli forces have killed far more Palestinian civillians than vice versa.

Does Palestinian forces include suicide bombers?

3. Israeli methods may seem more humane (helicopters vs suicide bombs, for instance) but the difference is really a product of the wealth of the israelis and the poverty of the palestinians (give Hamas some tomahawk cruise missles and I'm sure they'd abandon suicide bombs...)

They are more humane - regardless of what it takes to be humane.


4. The purpose of the state of Israel (particularly as articulated by the Israeli right) is explicitly racist and ethnocentric--Israel is a state for Jews, with all other ethnic groups treated as second class citizens. Look at the flag, for cryin' out loud!

You need to look up the word racist as well.

5. Israeli Ecomomic and military dominance of the region prevent the Emergence of a viable Palestinian Economy and hinders the emergence of civil society, as well as keeping Palestinians in poverty.

Always blaming the neighbor.

6.Daily unneccesary humiliations of normal palestinian Civilains do more to prolong this conflict than Hamas could in their wildest dreams (IDF broadcasting pornography in Jenin? how does that help Israeli security?)

You're losing me here...

I could go on, but I'll spare you...

Thank you.

By voting for Hamas, Palestinians show that they won't be terrorized out of their democratic rights by threats and bullying from the US and Israel.

Again, look up the word terrorize or terrorist and figure out why Israel and the US don't fall into those categories. Again, it has a definition, one you clearly need to know.

If you don't want the palestinians to have thier choice of governments, then you don't want democracy!!!

Woah! You got one right! 👍
 
I am very familiar with the many definitions of Terrorism floating around the political arena these days. As a starting point, consider that found in the American Heritage Dictionary:

Ter-ror-ism: Noun: The political use of violence or intimidation

My personal definition: The use of extreme and highly visible violence against small segments of a population in an effort to exert political influence through inspiring a state of extreme fear in the larger population.

As a humanist, I find all use of terrorism to be repugnant... and I don't support it under any circumstances.

What I'm attacking is the idea that Terrorism is solely the territiory of poor people with brown skin. The legitimate and respected governments of both the US and Israel (and the Russians, and Chinese, and....well you get the point) Have engaged in "military" actions which meet both definitions of terrorism listed above.

If we really want to end violent conflict (and the terrorism which is always a part of it) we would do better to stop pointing fingers and arguing about whose bombs are worse or sneakier and create a world of mutual respect and justice. What we wouldn't do is keep a people in poverty, treat them as second class citizens, or broadcase pornography over the TV channels in Jenin (as the IDF did following its assault on Jenin in a obvious attempt to humiliate and inflame devout muslims)

Finally, yes, I am considering suicide bombers when I compare Israeli and Palestinian deathtolls- I believe they are currently around 3000 Israeli Civillians killed by Suicide bombers and 9000 Palestinians killed by IDF forces (some, but not all, were gunmen... and therefore "legitimate" targets in the horiffic logic of war. Many were children.)
 
Who's blindly pro-Israel here?

Israeli military action, as excessive as it may be, though, does not actively target civilians. Hamas attacks do.

The creation of Israel was not intended as a marginalization of Arabs in Palestine, but as the creation of a refuge for a displaced European Jewish population still reeling from the Holocaust. That said, it wasn't entirely fair to dispossess the Palestinians, but attempts at reparations and negotiation for a stable peace have met with many problems thanks to hostility on both sides... it's something that goes back centuries... both sides have claim to the land, and the issues are not as simple as they may seem on the face of it.

There have been many attempts to resettle the Palestinians, but they have all failed... it's in the interest of certain political groups, both inside and outside Israel, to keep the hatred between Palestinians and Israelis alive.
 
My contention is that "terrorism" is just a regular part of how wars are won. I believe that any state or people who have "won" a war have needed to engage in terrorizing the population of the opposing entity.

As an example regarding the US, I'll reference a war most of us are glad the US and Allies won, just to clarify my point.

WW2- use of Atomic Bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Violent? certainly. Intimidating? certainly. Designed to affect Imperial Japan's political choices through terrorizing the population? definintely.

Basically, The Allied forces wanted to avoid a ground assault on the Japanese mainland. So they used an extremely violent and visible super weapon against one small city (not really much of a military target) then waited for the news to sink in. A few days later, again in Nagasaki. This had the effect of Terrorizing every level of Japanese society. After the second bomb, the Japanese saw that they could surrender or be incinerated, and chose to bend to the political will of the Allies. Ironically, they faced the same choice prior to the use of the atom bomb... Incendiary raids were killing more Japanese civillians than either bomb did... But it took the highly visible elements of the atomic bomb to really strike terror into the hearts of the Japanese... and consequently end the war.

So, even when we agree with the goals, terrorism is a part of war. Always has been, always will be. Am I glad that WW2 ended without the massive death toll a land invasion would have cost on both sides? of course. Am I sad that I'm glad that a massive terrorist effort was successful, yeah. But the world is a complicated place.
 
BuzzOrHowl
If we really want to end violent conflict (and the terrorism which is always a part of it) we would do better to stop pointing fingers and arguing about whose bombs are worse or sneakier and create a world of mutual respect and justice.
As utopian as it sounds it is impossible to have. Besides, how many times has Israel agreed to a cease fire only to get a suicide bomb in a pizzaria the next day?

What we wouldn't do is keep a people in poverty, treat them as second class citizens
And the Jewish people have NEVER felt that? I guess it is better to try and "push them into the sea" and want to "see them all dead?"

I believe they are currently around 3000 Israeli Civillians killed by Suicide bombers and 9000 Palestinians killed by IDF forces (some, but not all, were gunmen... and therefore "legitimate" targets in the horiffic logic of war. Many were children.)
You sound as if you don't agree with this logic. A man shooting at you with a maching gun isn't a justifiable target for shooting?

How many civilians were actually targeted by Israeli forces? Public transportation and restaurants are not military targets. In order for a suicide bomber to reach these places they have to get past guards and other Israeli forces, which means they purposely went for civilian targets. How is that better than aiming at gunmen or men planning attacks?
 
Look, I'm not "against" the Jews... Jews have been subject to terrible racism and bigotry over many centuries (mostly at the hands of christians... but that's another story). Nor do I support any goals of "Driving them into the sea" or "killing them all" What I'm saying is that the palestinians have a legitimate gripe, and like all peoples who have engaged in warfare will use terrorism if it will help them attain their goals. I don't like the inflamatory and anti semetic rhetoric spouted by many palestinian radicals, but that alone doesen't devalue the entire cause of palestinian statehood.

"Giving a refuge" is not productive if it means displacing someone else. It would have made more sense to give the Jews a chunk of Germany... But still would have been a political disaster. Better We should commit to providing people of all ethnicitys safety from racist oppression and violence whatever country they live in. It's worth noting that political zionizm existed prior to the Holocaust--Some extreme right zionists (incl. Menachem Begin, believe it or not) even supported Hitler in the early days... because they thought he would deport German Jews to Palestine and facilitate the creation of a Jewish state. (I guess that's a lesson of "be careful what you wish for")
 
BuzzOrHowl
Look, I'm not "against" the Jews... Jews have been subject to terrible racism and bigotry over many centuries (mostly at the hands of christians... but that's another story). Nor do I support any goals of "Driving them into the sea" or "killing them all" What I'm saying is that the palestinians have a legitimate gripe, and like all peoples who have engaged in warfare will use terrorism if it will help them attain their goals. I don't like the inflamatory and anti semetic rhetoric spouted by many palestinian radicals, but that alone doesen't devalue the entire cause of palestinian statehood.

"Giving a refuge" is not productive if it means displacing someone else. It would have made more sense to give the Jews a chunk of Germany... But still would have been a political disaster. Better We should commit to providing people of all ethnicitys safety from racist oppression and violence whatever country they live in. It's worth noting that political zionizm existed prior to the Holocaust--Some extreme right zionists (incl. Menachem Begin, believe it or not) even supported Hitler in the early days... because they thought he would deport German Jews to Palestine and facilitate the creation of a Jewish state. (I guess that's a lesson of "be careful what you wish for")
I understand why the Palestinians are upset, but their tactics suck. Their leaders have been two-faced throughout all of the peace talks and tell Israel and the US one thing while telling their own people another thing. When Arafat died I thought that they might get somewhere but this most recent election makes me think that things have been setback farther than any assault could do. The US and Israel are still negotiating with non-Hamas Palestinians while Hamas is quickly forming together their own form of government that will probably never agree to what has been discussed before. It does not appear to be a step forward.

And if you notice many people here are not trying to be pro-Israel so much as they are anti-Hamas. No matter what you want to argue Hamas has been led by a hatred for Israelis and never agreed to any kind of cease fire or truce. The only change I see in Hamas is that they now have access to a bigger budget and as the ruling political party may create political justification for Israel to go forward with a full-fledged invasion of Palestine, not just Gaza and the West Bank.

Pretty much, based on Hamas' past behavior I think this is the first link in a chain of events that will lead them to full war. The only thing that might hold Israel back is the realization that their biggest supporter is on the other side of the globe while their biggest enemies surround them.

Of course, I hope that Hamas will act like a political party and participate in diplomatic relations, causing a major drop in the number of suicide bombings.
 
@Foolkiller
I appreciate your reasoned response... I hope that Hamas does turn away from violence and toward diplomacy. I think there is a good chance of this, as they have accumulated a great deal of political capital through this election win. I would think they would rather spend it than blow it being hard headed. (Just ask GWB... warring can make your political capital go away real fast...)

In some ways, Hamas is the ideal peace negotiator for the Palestinians, just as Sharon was ideal for Israel...When an old softie makes a consession, nobody cares... But when a hardliner does, it's international news (ie. Sharon dismantling the Gaza settlements). At this point any concessions by Hamas will carry much more signifigance for Palestinians and Israelis alike than any similar consessions by an equivalent Fatah leader.

Finally, consider that many Palestininans voted for Hamas just to vote against Fatah, who have been a bunch of incompetent two faced corrupt hypocrits for decades. Perhaps now Hamas will move toward diplomacy and Fatah will clean house... setting the stage for success in future peace negotiations
 
BuzzOrHowl
My contention is that "terrorism" is just a regular part of how wars are won. I believe that any state or people who have "won" a war have needed to engage in terrorizing the population of the opposing entity.

As an example regarding the US, I'll reference a war most of us are glad the US and Allies won, just to clarify my point.

WW2- use of Atomic Bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Violent? certainly. Intimidating? certainly. Designed to affect Imperial Japan's political choices through terrorizing the population? definintely.

Basically, The Allied forces wanted to avoid a ground assault on the Japanese mainland. So they used an extremely violent and visible super weapon against one small city (not really much of a military target) then waited for the news to sink in. A few days later, again in Nagasaki. This had the effect of Terrorizing every level of Japanese society. After the second bomb, the Japanese saw that they could surrender or be incinerated, and chose to bend to the political will of the Allies. Ironically, they faced the same choice prior to the use of the atom bomb... Incendiary raids were killing more Japanese civillians than either bomb did... But it took the highly visible elements of the atomic bomb to really strike terror into the hearts of the Japanese... and consequently end the war.

So, even when we agree with the goals, terrorism is a part of war. Always has been, always will be. Am I glad that WW2 ended without the massive death toll a land invasion would have cost on both sides? of course. Am I sad that I'm glad that a massive terrorist effort was successful, yeah. But the world is a complicated place.


That instance wasn't designed to terrorize citizens - it was desgined to bully the military into backing down. There is a big difference.

That bomb said "BANG! You can't win!"

That's not terrorism, but it is wartime diplomacy.

Care to try again?
 
Back