Has Forza 3 suppressed you appetite for GT5?

[Taurim]

I am quite sure he OBVIOUSLY realized that. He was joking.

Of course I was Maybe it was not obvious enough

 

[Tenacious D]

Wow, is this discussion exactly what I was posting about. Bringing Enthusia into the thread is perfect, because it has a hardcore niche following who absolutely love it. Meanwhile, I can't stand it. My focus on most racing games is in the midband of high performance sports cars, 350hp and below, and my sweet spot are cars like the 350Z, Supra, WRX and S2000. Unfortunately, all the physics in the world goes to crap if the tires don't speak to me, and the communication with the cars in Enthusia is some of the worst I've ever experienced. If I can't take a 240SX around a curve aggressively because the tires don't start their soft whispering until I'm on the way off the track, it's pretty much game over period for me. I've tried it a few times over a period of years, and it's always the same experience. And it's disappointing because the opening (if rather strange) cinema really makes you want to try it, but it's nothing like the actual game.

So am I wrong? In some ways I am, in others not, because the fans can obviously overlook all the aspects I'm not groking and drive their wheels off.

This whole strong reaction to one game or another shows that taste definitely has a huge role to play in how satisfying the driving experience is. Enthusia is a rather extreme example, and the closest sim I can think of to it is rFactor, which it does feel rather close to. However, in rFactor I can manage to get a car around a track successfully because the communication with me is much better.

I'm not sure that those expecting big changes to a Forza sequel will ever be happy, especially if they prefer another flavor of racing. And these games definitely have a flavor, a nuance, a subtle but still rather profound character that sets them apart. Forza 3 and GT5 Prologue aren't really that radically different if you sit down with a halfway decent FFB wheel and give each a fair shake. You can drive a car hard in each and pretty quickly grasp the rules each one demands you follow. But at the same time, those flavors are pretty distinct, and can make you love one and hate the other. Plus, if Forza 3 was suddenly like GTR Evo, such a strong shift would alienate a bunch of Forza fans. Drifting would suddenly feel very different, and the drifters would have kittens. It would also be unnatural, because people develop a taste for flavors in both foods and games, and the people in T10 probably expect a certain nuance in how their cars handle based on the years they've been living and breathing their own game. The same thing is true with Polyphony, to be sure, but frankly I agree with Kazunori's seasoning a little more. Even tire sounds figure into this. Some really like the sounds in FM2 and 3, while I think they blow. Some can't stand the squeal in GT, but I find it to be very realistic.

The goodies in Forza will mean the world to some, and no big deal to others. Like I go crazy over the car customization and livery editor, giving me the ability to make any car in F3 into a race car. Or even paint up the race cars themselves! To someone else who isn't a creative whizkid like me, they don't care if they're all about the handling. F3 is already smarting from the removal of public lobbies, but this could possibly be remedied with a patch.

Kazunori's approach has always been different to the rest of the world of racing: to provide an encyclopedia of cars and motorsports, as big as he can make it, and a solid driving model to enjoy his cars. Other than GT3, Gran Turismo has been about having a wide selection of cars to choose from, and a number of challenging tracks to learn. And who knows, this could essentially be what we get in GT5. Without race modding and a livery editor, weather and time of day changes, GT5's claim to fame will be the staggering number of cars to explore in a solid Gran Turismo driving experience. Well, with damage and online lobbies. For millions of us, that will be good enough.

And on that, we're left wondering. We don't know what the car list is going to look like, though it probably looks like GT PSP, so that's something. But tracks? Cool features? Online capabilities? Things to spawn a thriving community of involved members like race mod and livery painting? Group and league formation tools? Not a clue, just slim hints from past interviews and roadmap plans. We don't even know for sure if there will be used cars again.

Forza provides a lot of seasoning with the race modding and paint shop to make their fans happy, and with F3, even bring in a few new ones. Will GT5 be the same? Will the usual flavor of Gran Turismo handling be enough to keep fans happy? Will it please Metacritic? We'll see. I know I've rambled on a bit, but what the heck, a few things might be worth reading.

And on Metacritic, it's definitely more of a yardstick than anything. Some things are clearly off, such as the different and rather baffling scores for MGS2 and 3, the Final Fantasys, and GT2 and 3. Gears of Wah is just NOT that good, sorry. I'm not sure the PS3 games will ever get a fair shake with some reviewers, but to date, this bias has certainly been a factor.

 

[Seismica]

Where Konami stopped with the one EPR game, PD should of taken all the great qualities of Enthusia & made sure it was 100 times more of a driving/racing sim, instead of slowly making changes for every sequel.

Here is a viideo ( slideshots ) of EPR, it's still worth playing.Konami should make a sequel for the PS3, it would be the perfect racing/driving sim.The graphics would be on par, more than likely more gorgeous looking & not lifeless ( accurate water changes & water physics, maybe with sea life etc ).I think more juice can be squeezed from the PS3, than what people are saying.Not one game that i can think of yet, has reached the limits of the PS3 in fast moving environments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vStqYrZ1GmA&feature=related

You only got to think of other games Konami have made before, to know how to entice people to buy their games.I'm not putting PD down in any way.I just think they have the edge over other console game developers.I'm not saying the sun shines out of their ass, they are strong competition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa9lxMKWhK8&feature=related

Theres a Bugatti EB110 in that vid

I do find it ironic that metacritic scores only count when it's suitable for ones argument, and then don't matter when it defeats their agenda.

I don't know about other people, but i have always completely disregarded game reviews, i like to see and play it for myself before i make the decision to buy a game.

Generally speaking, racing games get ranked quite low. GTA4 is currently the highest ranking console game. Why? The online isn't brilliant, the gameplay is worse than San Andreas was, not to mention San Andreas had a harrier and various other planes which made it a lot more fun. Even San Andreas for PC was given awfully low review scores, even though it had good online features and great potential for modding.

GT4 was given a score of 89. GT3 was given a score of 93. I think the first problem lies in that a lot of reviewers rate out of 10, not 100, so they give it 1 down from the top score, which only equates to a 90%. The second problem is, racing games are not for everyone. But the likes of GTA4 and COD4 appeals to significantly more people, and this means not only do they get good reviews, they get consistent good reviews. Racing games have never had that. Forza 3 was rated 91/100, but as a game in itself it is excellent, and deserved 95-100 (i.e. not looking at it from a sim racer point of view, so no 'omg physics r rubbish lol!!!1!!1!')

On another note GT4 prologue was rated at 70, and increased by 19 to GT4's score. By the same logic GT5P's rating of 80 will be increased to 99. Although like i said, its irrelevant, if it does get a high metascore it will be for the wrong reasons.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Just three secrets GT4 never had that is in EPR, lift off oversteer, braking oversteer & oversteer when going down through the gears.Also a 66 Stang GT in EPR is fitted with an open diff & can be swapped for a lsd like the Shelby Mustang GT350 from GT4.Also the cars aren't reluctant to do handbrake turns in GT4.

 

[Perkel]

Smoke&Slide

hey we don't actually know how new physic engine will handle in gt5. It could be better

 

[Smoke&Slide]

I know i considered that Perkel, i will wait & see.

 

[Perkel]

just think what change was done form gt4 to gt5p

 

[Seismica]

just think what change was done form gt4 to gt5p

I think GT5 will be similar physics wise to prologue. I reckon they added some new lines of code for torque related dynamics, although there is no hint of cornfirmation for that at all. We also can see from the latest demo with the Toyota concept, that the car turns a lot more sharply in comparison to prologue. Those and other subtle differences may imrpove the physics a lot.

I would be happy with prologue's physics though (Well, except for the improvement in collision physics on both wall and other cars, that i welcome)

 

[Tenacious D]

Once again, in complete agreement with Seismica.

While I'm happy with Forza 3's handling and physics, I'm still happy-er with Prologue, even though it seems you crawl through turns in comparison. F3 is still no slouch in regard to realism and essential feedback - I still don't care for the tire sounds but I'm adjusting - so it'll be interesting to see if Turn 10 releases a Forza 4 in time for the holidays 2011, or keeps updating F3 with DLC to flesh it out one extra year.

 

[RedSuinit]

I think GT5 will be similar physics wise to prologue. I reckon they added some new lines of code for torque related dynamics, although there is no hint of cornfirmation for that at all. We also can see from the latest demo with the Toyota concept, that the car turns a lot more sharply in comparison to prologue. Those and other subtle differences may imrpove the physics a lot.

I would be happy with prologue's physics though (Well, except for the improvement in collision physics on both wall and other cars, that i welcome)

Kaz has confirmed that there is a whole new physics engine, and that everything is different.

 

[Seismica]

Kaz has confirmed that there is a whole new physics engine, and that everything is different.

Doesn't stop it being similar though does it I doubt they will have restarted the physics from scratch after prologue spec III.

 

[Bogie 19th]

The game developers of Halo have come right out and said that the game shouldn't be installed, as it can slow things down if it is.

For their specific game, yes.

 

[TBR 427]

Doesn't stop it being similar though does it I doubt they will have restarted the physics from scratch after prologue spec III.

Generally if something's all new it does sorta mean they started from scratch.

I mean, physics engines AREN'T something you can just say "oh I'll just stick on some chassis flex calculations onto the back of it" or "I'll just add another dozen variables, I hope I don't have to adjust the available ones accordingly!"

If you add one variable, you have to re-write every single calculation that the variable is in to 'make room' for it; to make sure it's addition doesn't throw off the handling too much. Now think what happens when they add 50 more variables.

 

[Perkel]

"Doesn't stop it being similar though does it I doubt they will have restarted the physics from scratch after prologue spec III. "

why they wouldn't ? Because Prologue is 4 milion seller ? i don't think they have considerate that gt5p will sell that much.

I try to make an example.

They added pro physic for prologue to see feedback, they upgraded it (spec 2 - spec 3), in gt hd was only standard physic (and it was better than gt4 physic).

Adding damage could change a lot, prologue engine was joke in damage part.

and why there was no damage update for prologue ? they scrapped physic engine so they weren't working on update (pointles for gt5)

 

[Seismica]

Generally if something's all new it does sorta mean they started from scratch.

I mean, physics engines AREN'T something you can just say "oh I'll just stick on some chassis flex calculations onto the back of it" or "I'll just add another dozen variables, I hope I don't have to adjust the available ones accordingly!"

If you add one variable, you have to re-write every single calculation that the variable is in to 'make room' for it; to make sure it's addition doesn't throw off the handling too much. Now think what happens when they add 50 more variables.

Like the difference between GT3 and GT4? They were very similar physics wise despite the amount of changes that went into them.

I think GT5 will have a similar feel to GT5P, the differences will be very subtle. It will just be a derivation of GT5P's physics.

 

[Perkel]

I think GT5 will have a similar feel to GT5P

feel maybe and i hope (because gt5p feel of driving is very immersive)

but from tgs videos it seems it's quite diffrent (more realistic bounces from cars and uncontrolled slides), rest is unknown...

 

[Devedander]

But copying the files from the HDD to the HDD is quicker than copying from the disc to the HDD. I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the game is faster off the disc.

You might think so, but it's apparently not...

http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=news&cid=16252

 

[RedSuinit]

Like the difference between GT3 and GT4? They were very similar physics wise despite the amount of changes that went into them.

I think GT5 will have a similar feel to GT5P, the differences will be very subtle. It will just be a derivation of GT5P's physics.

That's your opinion. We'll just have to wait and see. I think there is going to be a big difference between the two.

 

[Seismica]

You might think so, but it's apparently not...

http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=news&cid=16252

Ah that makes sense, it was not possible to install games before NXE, and Halo 3 was out before that. Then its not a fault with the game at all, its Microsoft's fault Strange how the original Xbox allowed installation of games, but the 360 needed a firmware update long after release to make it possible

I'm sure Halo ODST will load quicker off the HDD if that is the case, as it was released long after NXE.

That's your opinion. We'll just have to wait and see. I think there is going to be a big difference between the two.

Lets just hope it moved the pro physics more towards the PC sims *Fingers crossed*

And kept the standard physics easy as you'd expect them to be.

 

[Bogie 19th]

You might think so, but it's apparently not...

http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=news&cid=16252

Again, that was just for Halo. Most titles see improved loading times, as well as some have experienced improved framerates and less pop in.

AStrange how the original Xbox allowed installation of games

The original Xbox didn't allow installation of games (legally).

 

[Seismica]

The original Xbox didn't allow installation of games (legally).

I wouldn't know i never owned it.

I guess my uncle must have chipped his then

 

[TokyoDrift]

Metacritic scores mean NOTHING

They compile the results of the companies that put Final Fantasy XII above final Fantasy X. The same people who rated Gran Turismo 4 at 89/100 because it was not to their liking. Yet they rated Tony Hawks Pro Skater 3 as the best PS2 game ever made.

Give me a break, these arn't real gamers, they rate games as a profession, they have no idea what they are doing. They play the game for a few weeks and give it a review. So Playability and Depth are grossly overlooked. Some games are funs for a few weeks, some keep going for years. The latter gets pretty much ignored by the sites Metacritic compiles the data from.

Sorry, but are you really THAT ignorant? So GT4 got 89/100...you fail to acknowledge the countless review scores in the high 90s. Whatever... Who cares how they rated Tony Hawks? It's an insignificant comparison. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and everybody's opinion is correct. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. If you want to be pedantic, the "popularity" of a game is not just the opinion of one site or individual. It encompasses review scores, written comments, sales etc. To that end, neither Tony Hawks, or GT4, or Forza 3 come anywhere close to that accolade.

Metacritic, like Gamerankings, simply gathers all of the reviews from various sources, puts them all in one place for ease of use, and shows you an average score - one they weight in some cases. So, when a game comes out that scores basically 90% on average, the fact is, that game must represent that genre very well. You really think that every single person who reviews games is not a gamer? FFS...

So, Forza 3 has only been out for a couple of weeks, yet here you are claiming that the game has no depth, no "longevity"? Really? On what experience are you judging that, your own fanbotic values? Based on the demo, the game plays very well indeed, and from the reviews I can see it has as much depth as you want to extract from it. You really think any of the previous Gran Turismo games have been "deeper"...riiiiiiight. At the end of the day, both games have you racing around tracks, collecting cars, and modding cars to some degree. The modding element is where Forza races ahead, so your logic here is seriously flawed.

Still, I suppose that when GT5 comes out and gets a 90%+ average on Metacritic, we can assume that score means crap because they are not real gamers... Grow up.

 

[Perkel]

tokyo

so basiccaly you say tony hawk 3 is best game ever on prev gen ? :>

And gta4 is THE BEST GAME EVER ?

numbers don't lie but it's ill logic to take avarge from all reviews.

GTA4 is most overhyped game ever and it get 10/10 only for gta n title like halo 3.

Game is worse than gta vice city & gta SA.

 

[Seismica]

Sorry, but are you really THAT ignorant? So GT4 got 89/100...you fail to acknowledge the countless review scores in the high 90s. Whatever... Who cares how they rated Tony Hawks? It's an insignificant comparison. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and everybody's opinion is correct. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. If you want to be pedantic, the "popularity" of a game is not just the opinion of one site or individual. It encompasses review scores, written comments, sales etc. To that end, neither Tony Hawks, or GT4, or Forza 3 come anywhere close to that accolade.

Metacritic, like Gamerankings, simply gathers all of the reviews from various sources, puts them all in one place for ease of use, and shows you an average score - one they weight in some cases. So, when a game comes out that scores basically 90% on average, the fact is, that game must represent that genre very well. You really think that every single person who reviews games is not a gamer? FFS...

Taking these reviews as a whole, an average, is not a reliable source of comparison for any game unless the difference between them is >20%.

Ok i will retract the statement that 'reviewers are not real gamers', i kind of regretted that after i wrote it, i knew there would be some backlash. 'Some' jounalist reviewers for non-gaming sites don't look at the game compared with similar games. This is how you end up with unique genre games getting near 100% reviews. What they need is a list of reviews focused on each genre and each sub-genre. Most sites look at the game as a game, not as a racing sim or an arcade racer etc. They look at how anyone could get fun out of it. Some simply say 'This game is for fans of the genre'; when you hear/read that in a review, you know right there its a bogus review written by someone who knows little about the genre.

So, Forza 3 has only been out for a couple of weeks, yet here you are claiming that the game has no depth, no "longevity"? Really? On what experience are you judging that, your own fanbotic values? Based on the demo, the game plays very well indeed, and from the reviews I can see it has as much depth as you want to extract from it. You really think any of the previous Gran Turismo games have been "deeper"...riiiiiiight. At the end of the day, both games have you racing around tracks, collecting cars, and modding cars to some degree. The modding element is where Forza races ahead, so your logic here is seriously flawed.

Still, I suppose that when GT5 comes out and gets a 90%+ average on Metacritic, we can assume that score means crap because they are not real gamers... Grow up.

Where did i say Forza's metacritic score was too high? Where did i say it had no longevity? I was critiscising the relevance of metascores in the argument of Forza vs GT. If you read a later post i made, i said Forza's score should have been higher...

And yes i believe GT4 was 'deeper' than the majority of games simply because it has more content. It mean there is more to do. Forza makes up for the difference in cars and tracks with a livery editor. It probably/most likely has more longevity than GT4 simply due to online racing and the livery editor. We don't know what online features will be in GT5 (except that it will have public matches and private lobbies) and we don't know if it will have a livery editor. If it has both of those, it will have more long term playability than Forza 3 because of the great amount of content it has.

A good example of a game which was reviewed poorly in LocoRoco for PSP. This game was given 30/64 reviews of 90% or higher. This game lasts barely a week, which is how long reviewers probably spent on it. My opinion of playing it was its fun, for about 5 minutes. I would rate it quite highly as 6.5/10 for its well put together gameplay, but it would lose out on long term playability. Like i said, longevity is rarely taken into account in short reviews you get on release. The sort of reviews we get for retro games now, are the sort of reviews we should see, where they explore every aspect of the game for extended periods of time, but they don't because whether it be a website or magazine, or a personal review, they don't often explore the game properly, they spend a few weeks and then move onto another game, usually because of a time limit for each review on their conveyor belt-like output.

 

[Tenacious D]

So, Forza 3 has only been out for a couple of weeks, yet here you are claiming that the game has no depth, no "longevity"? Really? On what experience are you judging that, your own fanbotic values?

He didn't say that at all, I checked, so your rant is completely unwarranted. However, I'll address the issue you bring up because I like to hear myself type.

Your nick certainly has a strong indication for your gaming style preference. So let's assume you're a drifter. Well, then Forza's your pet series. Drifting is relatively easy, not NFS Underblown easy, but easier than real life. By necessity, games built for the drifting community have to be a little easier because things like analog clutch are absent. So with nifty drifting and replay sharing, as well as limited movie making, Forza 3 will rise to the top of any racing game pile and have all sorts of replayability and longevity.

Livery editor: this is my area. There aren't a ton of cars available out of the box, but the sampling is very large. The range of aero kits is wide, though some are pig ugly, and the same for rims. Unfortunately, the real racing splitters and wings are "Forza" designs, but oh well. Even so, the number of racing variations you can make is substantial, and the upgrading system is very deep, allowing you to even do drivetrain swaps on most cars! And I haven't even touched the livery editor, which allows you to create, trade or sell decals and entire liveries. It's so deep, you can even edit the individual colors, giving you an infinite color palette, and metallic finishes are there for special paint jobs. Being able to paint over race cars as well gives you the potential for an essentially unlimited number of personalized rides. All kinds of longevity for folk like me, and pretty much a must-have game.

Outside of those two areas? Well, now we have the issue of physics and handling, and drivers views. Forza has a certain flavor, a strong, meaty flavor, and you either like it or you don't. Allowing only eight car races can turn people off. Some online racing leagues have made the decision based on this to give Forza 3 a pass. There are plenty of tracks available, but some people think the fantasy tracks are dumb. Online public lobbies have also been axed, at least for now, angering some fans.

This is a mixed bag to be sure. For some, this is still enough to keep them playing Forza till doomsday. For others, it's fun, might keep them playing for a time, but unless buying liveries or discovering the joy of painting cars hits them, they might get bored after a few months or a few weeks. Especially if what they really want is GT5. And hey, some won't touch it at all.

So the potential for all kinds of longevity is there, sure. GT4 had almost none of this, and I was still playing it, going on 16 months, until F3 hit. When I finally get my hands on GT5? Well, if it has a livery editor and race mod, I might never play Forza 3 again.

 

[Voltaic]

My appetite has not been suppressed, I'm just frustrated as HELL!

 

[happycorey]

Forza 2.5 is good fun but it makes the wait seem even longer. They have cut sooo many corners and limited and locked so much good content I'm glad PD has taken the time to put forth the effort to make a quality game WELL worth the wait.

 

[Simple SIM]

Forza 2.5 is good fun but it makes the wait seem even longer. They have cut sooo many corners and limited and locked so much good content I'm glad PD has taken the time to put forth the effort to make a quality game WELL worth the wait.

Bash "Forza 2.5" all you want but the fact remains that Forza 3 sits as THE Highest scoring racing game this entire gen and it remains to be seen if GT 5 is going to be "WELL worth" the wait.

GT 4 sure wasn't and neither was GT PSP.

 

[Kryz11]

Bash "Forza 2.5" all you want but the fact remains that Forza 3 sits as THE Highest scoring racing game this entire gen and it remains to be seen if GT 5 is going to be "WELL worth" the wait.

GT 4 sure wasn't and neither was GT PSP.

Just because something is scroed high, does not mean it is the best for the HARDCORE fan base.. GT4 was not that highly scored back in those days, yet i was one of the most popular racing games.. Only TOOLs fallow scores..

Same thing with BAYONETA, it got a PERFECT score, but does not appeal to everyone.. he is not bashing, he is speaking his mind, I have FM3 and I would call it too a FM2.5.. its not that polished of a game.

 

[happycorey]

Bash "Forza 2.5" all you want but the fact remains that Forza 3 sits as THE Highest scoring racing game this entire gen and it remains to be seen if GT 5 is going to be "WELL worth" the wait.

GT 4 sure wasn't and neither was GT PSP.

I understand where you're coming from, but I played 10 straight hours of it to define my opinion. It is a damn fun game anyone would be stupid to disagree, but it's as fun as FM2.5, it wasn't as epic as everyone claimed, and the high scores I don't think were deserved for the same game. No one touched down on the negatives (not that they should) but it was half assed

Just because something is scroed high, does not mean it is the best for the HARDCORE fan base.. GT4 was not that highly scored back in those days, yet i was one of the most popular racing games.. Only TOOLs fallow scores..

Same thing with BAYONETA, it got a PERFECT score, but does not appeal to everyone.. he is not bashing, he is speaking his mind, I have FM3 and I would call it too a FM2.5.. its not that polished of a game.

Agreed. A high score isn't necessarily the deciding factor of a game. TXR series, got bad scores, but I have had endless fun playing each game.