Has GTS with a wheel setup made you a better driver in the real world

[Junkman55]

If I’d seen your age, if you’re really 70, I would’ve said Sir. If I drove a car I’d say no still, cause driving in real live is about feedback from the road and seat of the pants. If I was 70 years old, I could see where GT could help ya out.

I lied about my age On my first real race day because I was too young. Am I lying about my age today, now that is a good question.

 

[kilesa4568]

My friend a true simulator is that the best you got , I have experience real racing in go karts for fifteen years no seat belts , no roll cages , real Open wheel racing . All we had was a leather jacket and a helmet for protection, My last 4 years a neck brace Which save my life. I was Doing 60 to 70 mph 1 inch off the ground Is that awakening you are talking about.

But GTS isn't a true sim. It's a forgiving and flattering simcade that appeals to a much wider audience than other built for purpose sims. If it's a simcade, the only thing it can teach you is over confidence.

If you want a proper sim, look at iRacing, Rfactor or even ACC. I hear that's classed as one.

 

[wtrain77]

You might find out that I'm not alone in saying that.

Have a read of this and tell me if the simcade part reminds you a lot of GTS: https://virtualracingschool.com/aca...-get-started/arcade-vs-simcade-vs-simulators/

Good for you thinking it's a true simulator but you're in for a rude awakening when you try a real one.

Putting the opinion that GTS is a sim-cade aside (which I share btw), are you making the claim GTS offers a novice driver no tangible benefits or skills that can be applied in real life?

 

[Fennario]

Not a simple yes or no... I enjoy playing (yes playing) because it allows me to drive near/over my limits in cars I could never afford, and in doing so take risks I would never dream of. While it can teach fundamentals there is also the Kreuger-Dunning Effect to watch out for. A little bit of knowledge is a very dangerous thing in the wrong hands. GTS is also nowhere near as modeled as iRacing and/or ACC, and even they have issues with tire modeling and other realism issues. Can easily see how someone could become overconfident after "mastering" GTS and end up going around Dead Man's Curve a little too fast.

At the end of the day it comes down to judgement and experience - you may get some of each from sims but need to apply it within the framework of real life, risk, and potential consequences.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Yes, GTS has improved my awareness level on the road and has prevented at least two bad accidents, one where I got cut off by a clueless driver, another by a car coming from the opposite direction turning left in front of me. I'm not using a wheel though, that has little to do with awareness. Still even on a controller it has increased my recovery skills from getting into an unexpected slide on black ice. Counter steering, when to apply throttle and brakes, all improve with racing and become second nature, which is how I got out of that situation where a car suddenly turned left into my path.

However I would never put my racing 'skills' to the test on the real road. But it helps getting out of bad situations and see them coming earlier.

 

[kilesa4568]

are you making the claim GTS offers a novice driver no tangible benefits or skills that can be applied in real life?

The principles and technique are the same so yes, they can learn something about car control like counter and under steer, but jumping behind the wheel of a real car will always feel drastically different to GTS's with all the added weight. There's usually a lot more steering lock to deal with too but the game doesn't prepare you for that either.

I get what you're saying but just because we know how to write, it doesn't make us Shakespeare.

 

[wtrain77]

The principles and technique are the same so yes, they can learn something about car control like counter and under steer, but jumping behind the wheel of a real car will always feel drastically different to GTS's with all the added weight. There's usually a lot more steering lock to deal with too but the game doesn't prepare you for that either.

I get what you're saying but just because we know how to write, it doesn't make us Shakespeare.

Your Shakespeare reference is a false analogy. No one is claiming GTS will mold the next Lewis Hamilton. The debate is whether or not sim racing can make you a better driver. Results will vary from one individual to the next, but I am of the opinion it has the potential to do so.

Being a better driver can mean different things. It is not about driving at the limit on public roads or seeing who can drive home from work faster. It can be something as simple as respecting what the vehicle you are driving is capable of. For example, if you are driving a high horsepower rwd vehicle, maybe you think twice about being aggressive with the throttle mid turn.

Also, people seem quick to dismiss GTS because of its sim-cade nature. From personal experience, I don't share this view. My transition to Project Cars and Assetto Corsa was definitely fast-tracked due to racing in GTS. Those two sims definitely exposed bad habits learned on GTS, but I was able to adjust within a few hours.

 

[The_Tullster]

I learned to drive on clay and gravel roads in two wheel drive passenger vehicles, then spent twenty years riding high powered motorcycles in heavy city traffic before starting sim racing. Sims had little to offer over what I'd already learned.
Particularly the motorcycle riding made me develop peripheral awareness better than I'd have believed possible before riding.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

I voted yes - I have no scientific evidence, but on a few occasions I have caught a skid and regained control / stayed in control. I think this is partly down to a lot of experience of catching the car in racing games and partly down to holding the steering wheel correctly with both hands.

Note - I never push the limits or drive fast on the road - the few occasions when I have saved a skid I was driving at legal speeds and there was an oil spillage or mud or ice on the road. It could also just be down to luck , but I think concentrating and always holding the wheel correctly and sitting the correct distance from the controls is a big factor in being able to stay in control. I notice that nearly 100% of women sit too close to the wheel and probably at least 50% of men.

While gaming I almost always use left foot braking, but I never do that on the road. Safety not speed is always my number one concern on the road.

 

[Junkman55]

But GTS isn't a true sim. It's a forgiving and flattering simcade that appeals to a much wider audience than other built for purpose sims. If it's a simcade, the only thing it can teach you is over confidence.

If you want a proper sim, look at iRacing, Rfactor or even ACC. I hear that's classed as one.

The only difference between GTS and the ones you listed is driving with the rules the makers of the Simulator software Want you to drive by. The thing you leave out is the cost, GTS is the best for the money. Just look at gtplanet’s numbers On GTS Over the examples you provided .

 

[TonyJZX]

The only difference between GTS and the ones you listed is driving with the rules the makers of the Simulator software Want you to drive by. The thing you leave out is the cost, GTS is the best for the money. Just look at gtplanet’s numbers On GTS Over the examples you provided .

I'd go further. I dont think any kind of 'race sim' prepares you for any kind of driving in typical urban conditions in most of the developed countries most of us live in. I dont care if you have a Jimmy Broadbent spec £10,000 pound sterling direct drive VR system (although this is nice!)

Doing a few days of real life track days will extend what you should already know from Gran Turismo... why does an FWD car behave like this? why does an RWD car do this in the wet? how do I brake in these linked corners? but even then I think the tracks days I've done sort of only helped me when I drove in the country (outback sealed roads) where I was by myself with no-one else around for many miles and there was no law no speed limits no one to hurt but myself.

 

[breeminator]

This may sound silly but I find in my real world driving , the skills learn in racing help make quick decisions that may have save my butt and Other of having a bad day.

When I drive in the real world, my aim is to avoid the need for any quick decision making by myself or anyone near me on the road.

 

[kilesa4568]

Results will vary from one individual to the next, but I am of the opinion it has the potential to do so.

Just how big is your 'one individual to the next' spectrum? Sure, someone who's yet to start driving can learn something from GTS but someone with a couple of years of driving under their belt won't.

99.99% of a competent driver's time is spent in full control of their car with the other .01% needing skills (or luck) to fix it. The game doesn't have real life physics so how can it possibly help with that 0.01%?

My first 10 years (boy racer alert) were spent driving like a lunatic in cars I paid a few hundred quid for (usually 3 a year) and I didn't care what happened to the car while I had my fun. I've had several instances of aquaplaning and even had a Pug 504 pick up seizing up and locking the rear wheels at 85-90mph. No idea how I didn't crash but I didn't and that was back in the late '80's. The next 10-15 years were spent doing 25-30k miles a year in various vans. Nothing in the digital world prepares you for any of what you'll experience.

You mention one instance of catching a slide as empirical proof that the game saved your life. Ask someone my age (51) who's driven as long and they'll tell you you're being daft if you think the game saved you.

Being a better driver can mean different things. It is not about driving at the limit on public roads or seeing who can drive home from work faster. It can be something as simple as respecting what the vehicle you are driving is capable of. For example, if you are driving a high horsepower rwd vehicle, maybe you think twice about being aggressive with the throttle mid turn.

That's just called common sense and youtube is full of videos of people with none. Maybe they were over confident from their time on GTS?

Also, people seem quick to dismiss GTS because of its sim-cade nature. From personal experience, I don't share this view. My transition to Project Cars and Assetto Corsa was definitely fast-tracked due to racing in GTS. Those two sims definitely exposed bad habits learned on GTS, but I was able to adjust within a few hours.

I'm not dismissing it at all. What I'm saying is that GTS can give a real false sense of security with its physics if you swap the toy wheel for a real one and mentioning the other sims won't work either as you're going from a flawed and often exaggerated version of physics to another. Real life physics never changes and the only way to prepare for it is to experience it firsthand. Your counter steer save is in the 0.01%, maybe even .001%, of regular driving, depending on the miles you've driven and experiencing it for real will stack the odds in your favour if it ever happens again, because it was real, not because you know how to do it in a game. Being an A+ driver and catching a slide in real life doesn't equal a driver with the skills for every eventuality. ie Knowing you can write might not sell your play.

The scariest thing about this thread is reading how many people think the same as you, even though I've met you all on the road. The one's who think there's enough room to pass, the people ploughing into the hedge from going into the corner too quickly and my all time personal favourite from all the motorway miles, which happens to be your example of proof, not keeping an eye on blind spots and surroundings on the motorway and getting caught unawares by another unaware drivers. I've lost count of all the spins I've seen and you can bet your last quid I'm waving a yellow flag before they happen so that I don't get involved in them.

If anyone can say this game improved their awareness and concentration levels on the roads, what the hell were you thinking about before the game came along to hone them? You get behind the wheel, you give it your undivided attention. There's already enough people out there wondering if they remembered to put the bin out or turned the oven off while they're driving.

If the title of this thread was "Has GTS with a wheel setup made you a better driver in the real world on a track", and if I had any track or race experience to work with, I'd have said yes, it helped. I'd use more track, utilize the car's weight and grip more on the quickest line through the corners and to always be aware of divebombs. It doesn't and I haven't so it's got to be a no, it hasn't helped me be a better driver.

 

[wtrain77]

People like me? That back-handed insinuation is uncalled for. No reason to get personal. You lose the debate when this happens.

Also, you talk out of both sides of your mouth. In one post, you dismiss the idea of GTS being beneficial because it is not a real sim like Assetto Corsa among other titles. Now all sims apparently are worthless. Pick a side and stick with it.

Furthermore, your suggestion that not being aggressive mid throttle is common sense proves my point for me. A lot of those people you mentioned on Youtube crashed out of ignorance. A respect for what they were driving through sims could have helped many of them avoid this mistake.

My last post btw. Good luck all.

 

[TonyJZX]

If anyone can say this game improved their awareness and concentration levels on the roads, what the hell were you thinking about before the game came along to hone them? You get behind the wheel, you give it your undivided attention. There's already enough people out there wondering if they remembered to put the bin out or turned the oven off while they're driving.

The problem with this statement is that you look at the world thru the lens of a 51 y.o. white van man as if your life experience, great though it maybe, is the only lense that matters.

There are kids half your age who have grown up on racing simulations who have driven faster cars on more tracks and in real life and are brilliant drivers and have never driven a van. All they know if that they started with simulators. They dont have any experience of a world without simulators.

So is there experience null and void because you driven a Transit for decades?

My question would be how many lives has Gran Turismo claimed on the roads since people seem to think that it translates so well to road trauma.

I do get it, I do roll my eyes when people sort of put their belief in any game however I dont believe that ANY experience is worthless nor would I go further as to say it translates to dangerous.

Its a game. People enjoy it. There's no evidence to say that its hurting people on the roads. Smacks of old man shouting at kids having fun.

 

[Fennario]

My question would be how many lives has Gran Turismo claimed on the roads since people seem to think that it translates so well to road trauma.

I do get it, I do roll my eyes when people sort of put their belief in any game however I dont believe that ANY experience is worthless nor would I go further as to say it translates to dangerous.

Its a game. People enjoy it. There's no evidence to say that its hurting people on the roads. Smacks of old man shouting at kids having fun.

Yes and no..
Study is looking at games like GTA not GTS; however, the same premises apply. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-23374-001

Drive Articles:
Worse Driver: https://www.thedrive.com/news/28871/people-who-play-racing-video-games-are-worse-drivers-study-says

Better Driver: https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/4583/video-games-improve-driving-according-to-new-study

A multiwave longitudinal study investigated the association of playing mature-rated and risk-glorifying video games and risky driving among adolescents. The study involved a large random digit dial telephone survey. Data were analyzed using structural equation modeling and included auto-regressive lags for the major outcome variables. Consistent with predictions, playing the targeted games was associated with increased reports of a variety of risky driving habits (e.g., speeding, tailgating, weaving in traffic), being pulled over by the police, automobile accidents, and willingness to drink and drive. These effects were observed after controlling for a variety of demographic and parenting variables. Finally, the effects of these games were shown to be mediated by increases in sensation seeking and rebelliousness. The results support a view of video games as affecting real-world behavior by altering a sense of self. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2020 APA, all rights reserved)

 

[kilesa4568]

People like me? That back-handed insinuation is uncalled for. No reason to get personal. You lose the debate when this happens.

Apologies if you took offence by that but my point was you were caught unawares by a car beside you. It used to happen to me and any time a car was beside me, it got just as much attention as what was in front. A quick blast of the horn straightens them up if they start to turn or even slowing up to speed up their pass.

Also, you talk out of both sides of your mouth. In one post, you dismiss the idea of GTS being beneficial because it is not a real sim like Assetto Corsa among other titles. Now all sims apparently are worthless. Pick a side and stick with it.

I've only mentioned other built for purpose sims to point out that GTS isn't one. They're closer to real life but from what I've read, there's flaws in each and seeing as we're talking about GTS, it's a moot point anyway.

Like I said, I'm sorry if you took offence from that but a mistake is a mistake in my book. Everyone makes them but we don't use them to justify our eventual meaning. Enjoyed the debate though.👍

There are kids half your age who have grown up on racing simulations who have driven faster cars on more tracks and in real life and are brilliant drivers and have never driven a van. All they know if that they started with simulators. They dont have any experience of a world without simulators.

Given the opportunity, I would have driven faster cars on more tracks in real life too and who knows, Hamilton could have been my number two.

I don't know if I'm getting too hung up the words 'GTS', 'wheel' and 'better driver in real life' here? Does 'better driver in real life' include using violent movements to control a car that isn't set up for violent movements or is a better driver someone who looks for and avoids those situations in the first place? We're in the real world remember, not a race track.

Make another poll asking if GTS helps with racing, my vote would be yes.

 

[Junkman55]

I'd go further. I dont think any kind of 'race sim' prepares you for any kind of driving in typical urban conditions in most of the developed countries most of us live in. I dont care if you have a Jimmy Broadbent spec £10,000 pound sterling direct drive VR system (although this is nice!)

Doing a few days of real life track days will extend what you should already know from Gran Turismo... why does an FWD car behave like this? why does an RWD car do this in the wet? how do I brake in these linked corners? but even then I think the tracks days I've done sort of only helped me when I drove in the country (outback sealed roads) where I was by myself with no-one else around for many miles and there was no law no speed limits no one to hurt but myself.

FWD, RWD,AWD, and RWD with a limited slip and live axle, all of these vehicles Handle different In all race cars , I for one think GTS dose a good job of the recreation of their differences . Only drivers that experience each in a Real racing experience can judge. If you want to see what it feels like turn off traction control that will make your simulator more life like. In the real world traction control on your family car is calibrated for city driving not racing, and There is times In The real world you have to turn off your traction control to get self control of your vehicle.

 

[CBH]

Make another poll asking if GTS helps with racing, my vote would be yes.

My vote would definitely be No because GT Sport has not got the real driving physics, I would say that GT6 & 5 has got the best driving physics.

 

[Geauxgreddy]

I autocross in real life and a group of CENLA Region SCCA autocrossers all ran GTS during our summer offseason. About 25 total in the group, but 12 of us were weekly regulars for our CENLA GT Sport races.

In our first Autocross race back, 8 of us (who also happened to be regulars) competed in the event. CENLA keeps records going back very far, so after the event I checked our last PAX% and compared it to the latest race PAX%. PAX is your % as fast as the fastest driver (your class adjusted for). So 100% would mean you are the fastest regardless of class. Then there is RAW fastest, so usually the Karts take the RAW time and the PAX winner is usually just a damn fast guy in any car.

No time before had all 8 of us simultaneously increased our PAX% from one event to another. It wasnt even close. This event we all made up ground in comparison to the fastest driver.

So, in a nutshell, yes, I believe it does.

 

[The_Tullster]

So, in a nutshell, yes, I believe it does.

That may not be so much a case of improving your driving as it is of maintaining your sharpness in the off season while the other drivers had a slight decline due to lack of practice. Either way, it's been a benefit to the GTS eight though.

 

[wtrain77]

Yes and no..
Study is looking at games like GTA not GTS; however, the same premises apply. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-23374-001

Drive Articles:
Worse Driver: https://www.thedrive.com/news/28871/people-who-play-racing-video-games-are-worse-drivers-study-says

Better Driver: https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/4583/video-games-improve-driving-according-to-new-study

A multiwave longitudinal study investigated the association of playing mature-rated and risk-glorifying video games and risky driving among adolescents. The study involved a large random digit dial telephone survey. Data were analyzed using structural equation modeling and included auto-regressive lags for the major outcome variables. Consistent with predictions, playing the targeted games was associated with increased reports of a variety of risky driving habits (e.g., speeding, tailgating, weaving in traffic), being pulled over by the police, automobile accidents, and willingness to drink and drive. These effects were observed after controlling for a variety of demographic and parenting variables. Finally, the effects of these games were shown to be mediated by increases in sensation seeking and rebelliousness. The results support a view of video games as affecting real-world behavior by altering a sense of self. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2020 APA, all rights reserved)

According to these articles, "racing simulators such as Gran Turismo and Forza offer theoretical and conceptually applicable knowledge that can genuinely be applied to real-world driving, both on the track and on public roads." It also acknowledges non-sim games can increase driving performance by improving concentration and reaction.

For some, both improvements apply, some one, and the rest none. What boggles my mind and cracks me up are the people that don't see improvements in their PERSONAL experience who seem intent to project this onto others as if it must be true for everyone else as well.

I do recognize the problem of false confidence sim racing can provide. However, for the record, not once have I advocated testing your skills on public roads.

 

[Junkman55]

According to these articles, "racing simulators such as Gran Turismo and Forza offer theoretical and conceptually applicable knowledge that can genuinely be applied to real-world driving, both on the track and on public roads." It also acknowledges non-sim games can increase driving performance by improving concentration and reaction.

For some, both improvements apply, some one, and the rest none. What boggles my mind and cracks me up are the people that don't see improvements in their PERSONAL experience who seem intent to project this onto others as if it must be true for everyone else as well.

I do recognize the problem of false confidence sim racing can provide. However, for the record, not once have I advocated testing your skills on public roads.

If you own a driving simulator of the quality you can afford and you see it has enhanced your skills in driving in the real world why do need a stranger telling you it does or doesn’t.
let’s put competition aside and see the simple things . Turning into lost traction In a turn, judging distance for speed and braking , when passing trying to determine if the driver in front is going to change lanes because of traffic. Let‘s face it maybe you become a better defensive driver . Now if you need to read this and not experience it, the simulator will not help you.

 

[wtrain77]

If you own a driving simulator of the quality you can afford and you see it has enhanced your skills in driving in the real world why do need a stranger telling you it does or doesn’t.
let’s put competition aside and see the simple things . Turning into lost traction In a turn, judging distance for speed and braking , when passing trying to determine if the driver in front is going to change lanes because of traffic. Let‘s face it maybe you become a better defensive driver . Now if you need to read this and not experience it, the simulator will not help you.

Agreed and I don't need a stranger's affirmation, but I do like to debate. I just find it interesting and hard to understand why people insist that their own personal experiences should be applied broadly to everyone else as if the other person's experience and explanation is invalid. It is an illogical and ineffective way to prove a point, yet many continue to fall into this trap. Also seems a bit egocentric.

 

[Sabertooth]

Learned the basics of driving stick with GTS and PCars 2

 

[Ryan Sandall]

In regards to real life racing I think yes, recently in my races since starting up again after covid I've found even more consistency than I had before, my reactions seem to be as good as ever
I also feel like I've built up such a knowledge of racecraft and techniques to defend and attack I can really put them to use on the track

As for real road driving or in my case riding too, not really, but I've always been spacially aware from the start of my racing exploits

I'm no good at judging distance cos one of my eyes is buggered lol but it's okay,

Also I used to help teach my friends how to drive their real car through gran turismo when I had shifter and all that, I'd reach them on the game and then try it in my car and they did good tbh

Honestly if you never drove before and you just played gtsport I think you'd pick up real life racing and driving pretty well

 

[kilesa4568]

For some, both improvements apply, some one, and the rest none. What boggles my mind and cracks me up are the people that don't see improvements in their PERSONAL experience who seem intent to project this onto others as if it must be true for everyone else as well.

You base your argument on catching one bit of opposite lock as empirical proof that the game saved you. I base my argument on experiencing some of the worst drivers (me at one time) on the road and coming out of it unscathed. I've got to be doing something right, surely?

I've already conceded that some novice (real life) drivers could benefit from GTS as the theory (like learning to ride a bike) is the same as real driving.

You can get concentration, awareness and reaction improvements from other sources though. You could even argue that honing them with GTS makes them unsuitable for the road as you might react too quickly to maintain control. Something you can get away with in GTS but rare in the real world.

 

[wtrain77]

If you own a driving simulator of the quality you can afford and you see it has enhanced your skills in driving in the real world why do need a stranger telling you it does or doesn’t.
let’s put competition aside and see the simple things . Turning into lost traction In a turn, judging distance for speed and braking , when passing trying to determine if the driver in front is going to change lanes because of traffic. Let‘s face it maybe you become a better defensive driver . Now if you need to read this and not experience it, the simulator will not help you.

I forgot to add regarding your comment about quality of equipment. I do believe this factors. I started with a Logitech G29 and upgraded to a Fanatec CSL Elite with loadcell pedals. The differences between the two are vast. The feedback on the G29 was weak and vague. It felt like a toy compared to the Fanatec. The CSL on the other hand does an excellent job of communicating what the car is doing. The force feedback is not only stronger, but of much higher quality, fidelity, and detail.

If I am being honest, I believe it would have been less likely I catch my real life slide if I didn't upgrade to the Fanatec. The steering in real life felt incredibly similar to what the Fanatec provides in sims.

I see you use the TGT. I don't have any experience with these, but they seem to be competing wheels with similar specs to the CSL. If so, I can see why you are also happy with your setup. It does however, make me curious to see what direct drive wheels have to offer. They are a bit pricey though.

 

[Junkman55]

I forgot to add regarding your comment about quality of equipment. I do believe this factors. I started with a Logitech G29 and upgraded to a Fanatec CSL Elite with loadcell pedals. The differences between the two are vast. The feedback on the G29 was weak and vague. It felt like a toy compared to the Fanatec. The CSL on the other hand does an excellent job of communicating what the car is doing. The force feedback is not only stronger, but of much higher quality, fidelity, and detail.

If I am being honest, I believe it would have been less likely I catch my real life slide if I didn't upgrade to the Fanatec. The steering in real life felt incredibly similar to what the Fanatec provides in sims.

I see you use the TGT. I don't have any experience with these, but they seem to be competing wheels with similar specs to the CSL. If so, I can see why you are also happy with your setup. It does however, make me curious to see what direct drive wheels have to offer. They are a bit pricey though.

Are you trying to impress me . You don’t ! remember the guy or gal with a G29 upgraded from a DS4 controller they have invested in a online racing experience. They now have change their driving from a game to a simulator experience.

 

[wtrain77]

Are you trying to impress me . You don’t ! remember the guy or gal with a G29 upgraded from a DS4 controller they have invested in a online racing experience. They now have change their driving from a game to a simulator experience.

LOL. You clearly misunderstand the point I am making.