Has GTS with a wheel setup made you a better driver in the real world

[Groundfish]

In a sim we are racing. In DRIVING in real life we are not.
So it’s two different things to begin with.
HPD has NO place on public streets.
Exploring the limits is for contained areas like racetracks.
Imo the worst most dangerous and dumb drivers in real life are younger males.
Number one we feel indestructible at that age number 2 we know everything at that age.
Now to go deeper PRE sims existence you’d as I said go in the rain, find slippery surfaces, go off road etc.
I’d take 2 hours of doing that over 900 hours in any sim.
No sim has butt feel, g force felt when actually moving.
I feel I am good at sim more from taking real to the sim as opposed to the other way around.
Imo worst possible scenario is a younger male who is great in the sim which only adds to a MASSIVE overconfidence/overestimation of ability.

 

[Fennario]

Exhibits A through ZZ:


Counterpoint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jann_Mardenborough

 

[Junkman55]

In a sim we are racing. In DRIVING in real life we are not.
So it’s two different things to begin with.
HPD has NO place on public streets.
Exploring the limits is for contained areas like racetracks.
Imo the worst most dangerous and dumb drivers in real life are younger males.
Number one we feel indestructible at that age number 2 we know everything at that age.
Now to go deeper PRE sims existence you’d as I said go in the rain, find slippery surfaces, go off road etc.
I’d take 2 hours of doing that over 900 hours in any sim.
No sim has butt feel, g force felt when actually moving.
I feel I am good at sim more from taking real to the sim as opposed to the other way around.
Imo worst possible scenario is a younger male who is great in the sim which only adds to a MASSIVE overconfidence/overestimation of ability.

The thing you give young drivers are the tools to know the vehicle they are getting behind the wheel of has to be experience for the first time and practice to it become second nature . That why they offer driver education for new drivers in high school.

To drive In online racing they will a need a job to afford the PS5 , GT7 and a wheel setup. Let’s not forget the one thing that a simulator shares with real life is what we see through the windshield or screenshot that is as close to real life as we can expect From a simulator. The controls of a wheel setup will mimic what is needed to experience what we see to finish a race.

 

[killerjimbag]

I guess you have not experienced brake fade it is a common problem with drum brakes on older cars . It can happen when you are Traveling 70 mph and a deer step out in front of you Hit the brakes hard and the car will not slow down the cars feels like no brakes Until your speed drops below 55 mph and your brakes feel normal again. It’s one of the reasons Car company’s are using disc brakes .

Dude I've been driving for 45 years. I'm a truck driver in real life. I'm pretty sure I've experienced about everything you can imagine in driving a vehicle. No video game taught me.

 

[The_Tullster]

...and how many flew back after that tragically limited amount of artificial training? I believe it was 6 flying hours in WW I and just 4 weeks in Spitfires. Not a good record.

Those things were never intended to (and didn't) replace real training. They were used to introduce certain aspects of flying to inexperienced pilots before putting them in a situation where not knowing those aspects of aircraft control would result in the loss of personnel and expensive equipment. When used appropriately they saved many lives. That was my point. A sim doesn't replace real life practice. It supplements real life practice in situations where doing it in real life is either too expensive or too dangerous. Most professional sims aren't even meant to simulate the real experience in full fidelity, they're intended to allow a pilot or driver to practice certain aspects without the risk and expense of using a real aircraft or car. F1 drivers who have sims in the pits are using them (mostly) to learn the track, braking points and gear change points, not to learn how to drive the car.

The hugely expensive behemoths that airlines make their pilots practice on are mostly procedure similators, not aerobatic simulators. Their function is to simulate emergencies so the pilots can practice routine and emergency checklists and procedures, and immediate responses to situations that rarely happen in real life but need immediate action. The simulator has a enough fidelity to provide the pilots similar behaviours and symptoms to the real emergency, but they're nowhere near 100% real. Most of those situations are also extremely risky to practice in a real aircraft.

I guess you have not experienced brake fade it is a common problem with drum brakes on older cars.

The same could be said of you. If a driver relied on your description of brake fade and how to "cure" it they'd potentially end up in deep trouble. The problem occurs when the brakes get too hot, regardless of speed. It can also occur in disk brakes when they get hot (but for different reasons). In both cases slowing down doesn't cure the problem, you need to allow or cause the brakes to cool.

I've owned a drum brake vehicle and in years of enthusiastic driving only experienced brake fade once. It resulted from driving down a steep descent with the brakes partially applied for several kilometres while heavily loaded... at about 40 mph. It's hardly a common problem unless you're in the habit of seriously abusing the brakes or you're in a racing environment. It took less than a minute of driving at highway speed (50 - 60mph) for the airflow to cool the drums enough to return full braking performance. If I'd slowed down, there would have been less airflow and it would have taken longer for the brakes to cool.

I've also had brake fade on a disk brake motorcycle. Repeated hard stops from 150mph in a short time period (track day) boiled the brake fluid, filling the line with vapour. It took about 15 -20 minutes for the lines and calipers to cool enough for full brake performance to return.

Edit: I should add that in both cases the vehicles were due for brake services. Brakes fresh out of the workshop are much less prone to these problems.

 

[Junkman55]

Those things were never intended to (and didn't) replace real training. They were used to introduce certain aspects of flying to inexperienced pilots before putting them in a situation where not knowing those aspects of aircraft control would result in the loss of personnel and expensive equipment. When used appropriately they saved many lives. That was my point. A sim doesn't replace real life practice. It supplements real life practice in situations where doing it in real life is either too expensive or too dangerous. Most professional sims aren't even meant to simulate the real experience in full fidelity, they're intended to allow a pilot or driver to practice certain aspects without the risk and expense of using a real aircraft or car. F1 drivers who have sims in the pits are using them (mostly) to learn the track, braking points and gear change points, not to learn how to drive the car.

The hugely expensive behemoths that airlines make their pilots practice on are mostly procedure similators, not aerobatic simulators. Their function is to simulate emergencies so the pilots can practice routine and emergency checklists and procedures, and immediate responses to situations that rarely happen in real life but need immediate action. The simulator has a enough fidelity to provide the pilots similar behaviours and symptoms to the real emergency, but they're nowhere near 100% real. Most of those situations are also extremely risky to practice in a real aircraft.


The same could be said of you. If a driver relied on your description of brake fade and how to "cure" it they'd potentially end up in deep trouble. The problem occurs when the brakes get too hot, regardless of speed. It can also occur in disk brakes when they get hot (but for different reasons). In both cases slowing down doesn't cure the problem, you need to allow or cause the brakes to cool.

I've owned a drum brake vehicle and in years of enthusiastic driving only experienced brake fade once. It resulted from driving down a steep descent with the brakes partially applied for several kilometres while heavily loaded... at about 40 mph. It's hardly a common problem unless you're in the habit of seriously abusing the brakes or you're in a racing environment. It took less than a minute of driving at highway speed (50 - 60mph) for the airflow to cool the drums enough to return full braking performance. If I'd slowed down, there would have been less airflow and it would have taken longer for the brakes to cool.

I've also had brake fade on a disk brake motorcycle. Repeated hard stops from 150mph in a short time period (track day) boiled the brake fluid, filling the line with vapour. It took about 15 -20 minutes for the lines and calipers to cool enough for full brake performance to return.

Edit: I should add that in both cases the vehicles were due for brake services. Brakes fresh out of the workshop are much less prone to these problems.

Vehicles made in the 60s use asbestos in there brake linings To solve the Brake fade and wear problem . When the EPA and DEC and the government outlaw it use because of mesothelioma. The manufacturers look for brake compounds to replace asbestos. They tried mixing other products but the turn around time was short, to fix Brake fade and wear .

The vehicle that brought Up this conversation is a 1965 Chevy Impala with 3” front Drum brakes and rear drum brakes. I have a professional experience repairing a 25 year old 1969 Chevy Impala With over 500,000 miles With the same brakes for a customer who work for 60 minutes who came in with a brake fade issue . I had the opportunity With his mechanic in Maine to solve it for him.

The brake manufacturers change how they made their products for more miles between brake jobs . Most aftermarket brake companies were using The longer wearing brake products that could cause brake fade in 1960’s cars with 3” Front brakes .

The repair on this vehicle took six months With the many changing of brake manufacturers to solve the brake fade issued . I got lucky with a brake company that made cheap brakes that lasted less then 20,000 miles the more expensive longer wearing were causing the brake fade.

The car and it’s owner are retiring in Maine the car is still on the road With over 800,000 miles sharing time with a Subaru Forester for snow days.

 

[Fennario]

Somehow, I don't think getting into it with a trucker about his knowledge and/or experience regarding brake fade is going to be a fruitful endeavor. Not sure, just a feeling...

 

[wtrain77]

Exhibits A through ZZ:


Counterpoint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jann_Mardenborough

What is the point you are trying to make or convey through this video?

 

[Junkman55]

Somehow, I don't think getting into it with a trucker about his knowledge and/or experience regarding brake fade is going to be a fruitful endeavor. Not sure, just a feeling...

You are right, but I have a soft spot For 18 wheelers my son is one living his dream . On the other side some Truck drivers need less contacts with people.

 

[Junkman55]

Dude I've been driving for 45 years. I'm a truck driver in real life. I'm pretty sure I've experienced about everything you can imagine in driving a vehicle. No video game taught me.

You left out your real world racing experience on your resume. There are many using online racing simulators finding it helps their driving skills in the real world . Not everyone needs a resume.

 

[Sabertooth]

Sim racing can help you learn basic skills, but you need real life experience to refine them. Until you get the real life practice, don’t go around thinking your a master driver because you’re good at Gran Turismo. Personally, I was sim racing before I started driving irl, and I think it helped me learn basic skills, but it took practice in the real world to become a good driver.

 

[ShiftingGears]

It taught me how to cause pileups on the motorway while avoiding my sportsmanship rating dropping

Thanks PD!

 

[wtrain77]

Sim racing can help you learn basic skills, but you need real life experience to refine them. Until you get the real life practice, don’t go around thinking your a master driver because you’re good at Gran Turismo. Personally, I was sim racing before I started driving irl, and I think it helped me learn basic skills, but it took practice in the real world to become a good driver.

Right. Some people seem intent to conflate the idea sim racing helps you be a better real life driver with sim racing helps you drive at the limit in real life. You can have the first without the latter. There are ways it can help beyond HPD.

 

[O604]

Imagine a manual transmission driver in America who wants to practice driving manual transmission in Japan.

A sim would be "handy".

 

[The_Tullster]

Imagine a manual transmission driver in America who wants to practice driving manual transmission in Japan.

A sim would be "handy".

I drive a RHD vehicle but when I was young I first learned to shift with my right hand. Started on tractors (stick is between your knees, so either hand works) then got practice in cars shifting for my mother while she drove and I sat in the left seat. At least at that age, swapping hands proved to be a complete non-issue.

 

[killerjimbag]

You left out your real world racing experience on your resume. There are many using online racing simulators finding it helps their driving skills in the real world . Not everyone needs a resume.

So I guess all the driving in snow on a video game will make you a better driver in the snow? Dude I drove dirt bikes as a kid. Raced go karts as a kid. Drove numerous cars and bikes down quarter miles. Nothing in a video game can teach you "real world physics". Its a video game. Unless you have a full motion rig hooked up to your PC/PS4 your playing a "video game"

 

[kilesa4568]

There are ways it can help beyond HPD.

List them. I could do with a laugh.

 

[wtrain77]

List them. I could do with a laugh.

Why bother?

You'll end up countering with irrelevant points about taping two chickens to the front bumper and throwing two goats in the trunk to better balance cars you can't handle. I'll paint you into a corner by telling you how stupid that sounds because it proves nothing. As a result, you resort to ad hominem attacks because you have nothing of value to add.

Let the record show, I have not once stooped as low as you and attacked your character. Again, you would do well to learn some humility and cool it in how you talk to people. I attacked and maybe even ridiculed your points, but never you personally.

An unwritten rule of debating is the first person who no longer debates points and instead resorts to emotion and makes it personal, loses. We've been down this road twice already. You lost twice buddy. Why do you want to make it three?

 

[Groundfish]

You'll end up countering with irrelevant points about taping two chickens to the front bumper and throwing two goats in the trunk to better balance cars you can't handle

I’m Switzerland far as your back and forth here with others so I feel it incumbent upon me as an impartial outside observer to point out that for those with whiskers in this thread there’s basically agreement on the topic at hand.
I’m reminded of a situation a friend I have told me about. Guy retired out of an oil refinery. He was a senior inspector for critical rotating equipment related to hydrocracker processes. I don’t know much about it technically but we are talking like real big turbines/high pressure hydrogen/seriously dangerous stuff.
Anyways one of his secondary job functions was to train incoming engineers fresh out of college.
According to him it was very humorous indeed, sort of like how I view this back and forth from you.
Funniest story he shared with me was about some type of seal oil system. Apparently it works based on maintaining a pressure vs the pressure in the turbine?
I’m not sure the specifics but anyways he said it was so funny because these very bright top of class engineers were great with theory and calculations but let them look over an instability in this system and one test for them when there was an upset was to show them what was going on (problem) let them look over drawings etc before going into the field and trying to determine the cause of the issue...
SO WHATS THE POINT OF THIS LOL?
Invariably the new engineers in their attempt to explain the issue took into account the moons phase earths rotational speed everything complicated,
lol
my friend said usually it was operations staff leaving one valve open that was supposed to be shut.
He said invariably the arrogance from the youngsters evaporated real quick when they realized the value of experience.
As Switzerland here it’s how I view this thread.
::::munches popcorn:::
Experience!

 

[wtrain77]

I’m Switzerland far as your back and forth here with others so I feel it incumbent upon me as an impartial outside observer to point out that for those with whiskers in this thread there’s basically agreement on the topic at hand.
I’m reminded of a situation a friend I have told me about. Guy retired out of an oil refinery. He was a senior inspector for critical rotating equipment related to hydrocracker processes. I don’t know much about it technically but we are talking like real big turbines/high pressure hydrogen/seriously dangerous stuff.
Anyways one of his secondary job functions was to train incoming engineers fresh out of college.
According to him it was very humorous indeed, sort of like how I view this back and forth from you.
Funniest story he shared with me was about some type of seal oil system. Apparently it works based on maintaining a pressure vs the pressure in the turbine?
I’m not sure the specifics but anyways he said it was so funny because these very bright top of class engineers were great with theory and calculations but let them look over an instability in this system and one test for them when there was an upset was to show them what was going on (problem) let them look over drawings etc before going into the field and trying to determine the cause of the issue...
SO WHATS THE POINT OF THIS LOL?
Invariably the new engineers in their attempt to explain the issue took into account the moons phase earths rotational speed everything complicated,
lol
my friend said usually it was operations staff leaving one valve open that was supposed to be shut.
He said invariably the arrogance from the youngsters evaporated real quick when they realized the value of experience.
As Switzerland here it’s how I view this thread.
::::munches popcorn:::
Experience!

Cool story. I never dismissed the value of experience.

 

[Groundfish]

Cool story. I never dismissed the value of experience.

Sure ya did in the part I quoted.
You have no experience with vehicles like those alluded to by others.
Lol
Have a nice day

 

[kilesa4568]

Why bother?

Because your one and only example of 'empirical' proof isn't enough for me.

Any other more convincing examples of how GTS helps your real driving?

 

[wtrain77]

Cool story. I never dismissed the value of experience.

Sure ya did in the part I quoted.
You have no experience with vehicles like those alluded to by others.
Lol
Have a nice day
View attachment 946761

True. You got me there. I should have better clarified my position.

What is the point of the story of weighing down the rear? Without further explanation, it tells me nothing. On the surface, it sounds like he realized his own limitations and did what he needed to stabilize the car. A smart thing to do by the way if this is the case. But beyond that, I see no connection as to how it relates to the discussion. This experience does not prove nor disprove what is being discussed.

 

[Fennario]

"On the surface, it sounds like he realized his own limitations and did what he needed to stabilize the car..."

I'm dropping out of this conversation, not worth the time/energy engaging. Not sure if it was your intent to be antagonistic and condescending, but you've succeeded. Wishing you the best and safe travels online and off.

 

[wtrain77]

Because your one and only example of 'empirical' proof isn't enough for me.

Any other more convincing examples of how GTS helps your real driving?

Let me explain my experience in a more pragmatic way for you to better understand the logic.

My argument is sim racing better prepared me for the oversteer moment. For example, lets say prior to sim racing, a driver catches 10% of those moments and after significant time spent on a sim, he catches it 20% of the time. By definition, the driver has seen a tangible improvement. Of course, this correlation would need to be verified as causation through controlled experiments, but this is the general idea.

 

[wtrain77]

"On the surface, it sounds like he realized his own limitations and did what he needed to stabilize the car..."

I'm dropping out of this conversation, not worth the time/energy engaging. Not sure if it was your intent to be antagonistic and condescending, but you've succeeded. Wishing you the best and safe travels online and off.

Bye. Funny you find that condescending, yet make no mention when he categorizes me as belonging to a group of unflattering people when all I did was debate and share my opinion. He follows that up by calling me ignorant.

 

[killerjimbag]

Let me explain my experience in a more pragmatic way for you to better understand the logic.

My argument is sim racing better prepared me for the oversteer moment. For example, lets say prior to sim racing, a driver catches 10% of those moments and after significant time spent on a sim, he catches it 20% of the time. By definition, the driver has seen a tangible improvement. Of course, this correlation would need to be verified as causation through controlled experiments, but this is the general idea.

So what did all these racing drivers do before "sims" came out. I'm pretty sure Senna,Fangio,Foyt,Shelby,I could keep naming names,had no time on sims. How did they get to be some of the best drivers in the world without touching a sim.
Should I do the mic drop now or later?

 

[kilesa4568]

What is the point of the story of weighing down the rear? Without further explanation, it tells me nothing. On the surface, it sounds like he realized his own limitations and did what he needed to stabilize the car. A smart thing to do by the way if this is the case.

Three baby seats in the back seat made safety paramount. Two bags of cement in the boot (behind the rear axle) put more weight over the twitchy (in wet and greasy as well as icy conditions) high tyre wall rear tyres, calming the weight distribution down.

Leaving the cement out, the rear could snap out a lot easier with a lot more inertia.

Let me explain my experience in a more pragmatic way for you to better understand the logic.

My argument is sim racing better prepared me for the oversteer moment. For example, lets say prior to sim racing, a driver catches 10% of those moments and after significant time spent on a sim, he catches it 20% of the time. By definition, the driver has seen a tangible improvement. Of course, this correlation would need to be verified as causation through controlled experiments, but this is the general idea.

In GTS, it's very easy to catch. In real life, it's very easy to end up in a ditch.

He follows that up by calling me ignorant.

I'm ignorant about knitting and flower arranging. It doesn't have to be taken as an insult.

 

[wtrain77]

So what did all these racing drivers do before "sims" came out. I'm pretty sure Senna,Fangio,Foyt,Shelby,I could keep naming names,had no time on sims. How did they get to be some of the best drivers in the world without touching a sim.
Should I do the mic drop now or later?

Funny how you think that is a drop the mic moment. This is a false analogy and a gross distortion and exaggeration of what I believe.

 

[wtrain77]

Three baby seats in the back seat made safety paramount. Two bags of cement in the boot (behind the rear axle) put more weight over the twitchy (in wet and greasy as well as icy conditions) high tyre wall rear tyres, calming the weight distribution down.

Leaving the cement out, the rear could snap out a lot easier with a lot more inertia.



In GTS, it's very easy to catch. In real life, it's very easy to end up in a ditch.



I'm ignorant about knitting and flower arranging. It doesn't have to be taken as an insult.

Whatever you say. You are entitled to your opinion. But the logic I laid out stands.