Head Tracking Confirmed for GT5!!!
- Thread starter turbomp301
- 392 comments
- 49,063 views
- 2,119
- Somewhere only we know.
- FanofGT5
It's a good idea so you can look around & check mirrors etc.I'm the same as Simple Sim, guarded with skepticism.
- 5,954
- 020 A'dam
- Blitz187
- Are u serious?
Maybe this is the "MAJOR advancement" Kaz was talking about that will be revealed at TGS... I mean it IS a major advancement for the GT series and console racing sims... so maybe we'll see this in action at TGS 
Speculation can be fun at times... 
Speculation can be fun at times... 
- 162
- Kilborn230
I was unaware of how inepensive the Eye Toy was, i'll definetly need to pick one up in the next while.
- 736
- MrSchmo
No longer called the Eye Toy. just PS Eye.
They are relatively cheap now. I got mine a while back to use as a security camera, works great.
- 4,323
I have used TrackIR and found it more trouble than it was worth in many circumstances… for one it’s not as intuitive as you would think to turn your head 10 degrees and have your view rotate 90 degrees (or some such). It’s usefull for a quick shoulder check of who is next to you, but for looking at the apex while taking turns it’s suprisingly bad. The problem being exactly that your head is not looking the direction the camera is and thus the ability to intuitively steer in relation to what you see is still poor.
Where TrackIR shines is in sims of other kinds like flight sims where things happen a little more slowly and are less twitch sensitive. Also where the goal is more to see your whole control panel, not so much where you are going as a means to steer.
The other thing I found difficult about it was it forces you to hold your head still to look straight. Now this might sound like nothing since you should be looking forward while you drive anyway right? Well not so much, if you watch yourself play games, you will probably notice that your head moves a bit here and there pretty often over time as it adjusts to ease strain on your neck muscles. Well this small move results in larger moves on screen and often left me looking slightly off center and making it harder to steer properly (as now your camera is not centered).
I suggest everyone give TrackIR a shot to see what it’s really like. I don't know if they plan on packaging IR lights or something with this kit, but the other issue I found with head tracking was that in lower light performance degraded quickly if you were using solutions that didn't involve IR lights.
Basically my feeling is that it's only slightly better than using the right analogue stick to change views in that it doesn't require yet another digit on your already busy hands to activate, but in terms of functionality, I never found this kind of head tracking to be worth the trouble.
Where TrackIR shines is in sims of other kinds like flight sims where things happen a little more slowly and are less twitch sensitive. Also where the goal is more to see your whole control panel, not so much where you are going as a means to steer.
The other thing I found difficult about it was it forces you to hold your head still to look straight. Now this might sound like nothing since you should be looking forward while you drive anyway right? Well not so much, if you watch yourself play games, you will probably notice that your head moves a bit here and there pretty often over time as it adjusts to ease strain on your neck muscles. Well this small move results in larger moves on screen and often left me looking slightly off center and making it harder to steer properly (as now your camera is not centered).
I suggest everyone give TrackIR a shot to see what it’s really like. I don't know if they plan on packaging IR lights or something with this kit, but the other issue I found with head tracking was that in lower light performance degraded quickly if you were using solutions that didn't involve IR lights.
Basically my feeling is that it's only slightly better than using the right analogue stick to change views in that it doesn't require yet another digit on your already busy hands to activate, but in terms of functionality, I never found this kind of head tracking to be worth the trouble.
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- 736
- MrSchmo
How old is this TrackIR? I dont think its fair to compare the two, especially since this new version isnt out yet. But the greatest part that the complainers will for get... its OPTIONAL. So there really is no debate. No one can come in here an say this is stupid or a waste. Cause its something that you dont have to use it if you dont want to.
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- NY, NY
- GTP_shawtyoner
- shawtyoner
What you are saying is making a lot of sense to me. I can't be 100% since I've never tried it, but it does seem that it would be more of a pain to get used to than actually benefit the driving experience. I don't know, maybe if you had the 3 screen setup it would make more sense to turn you head and look at the right or left screen, instead of turning your head while keeping your eyes centered. Could be fun, but in the intense pressure you're under trying to squeeze out a good lap, I feel that this will just make it harder, unless you re-learn how to drive in GT using this. We'll see.
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- NicoTexas - GTP_NicoTexas
Never tried a head tracker but I'm really looking forward to use it.
I play on a big screen (67") and I can imagine a benefit when you are on a big screen.
And from the previous videos posted on this thread I think it looks much more realistic with head tracking.
It will be obviously optionnal. So no big deal if it's not what I expect
I play on a big screen (67") and I can imagine a benefit when you are on a big screen.
And from the previous videos posted on this thread I think it looks much more realistic with head tracking.
It will be obviously optionnal. So no big deal if it's not what I expect
Rand al Thor
(Banned)
- 153
- Vandaliser
friggin awesome. that eyepet game will be very handy since i can make use of the eye as well. not just the siblings
lol I was watching my mate do a time trial yesterday - I noticed I was leaning into the corner and hanging onto the arms of the sofa in sympathy
What we need is PS grab handles 💡
- 4,323
I don't know how old it is, but I believe it's constantly being worked on and has pretty much reached a state where there isn't much left to do to improve it.
Now obviously I don't know how PD will do this, but the fundamentals of how it works were shown, and the fundamentals is where the problem exists:
Your head does not turn 1:1 with the view change, so for anything beyond looking as far as you can to either side, it's not very intuitive.
There are free apps you can try this with and their are 2 major kinds, ones that use IR lights and those that don't.
The kinds that use IR are much more accurate as they are tracking sharp, discrenable, easy to see points in space. This leads to more accurate tracking, but also leads to every single twich or movement showing up on screen. Also requires wearing headgear (which the PS3 version appears not to be).
The non IR versions use face tracking. And while face tracking gets better all the time, it is the less accurate version (can't get more accurate than 3 tiny bright lights really). Often there are issues with how small a movement can be accurately detected, some lag introduced (as you pass by the "dead zone" that is programed in to avoid super twitchiness) and of course lighting issues... cameras that don't perform well in low light make visual head tracking much less reliable.
Don't take it all personal, I am not attacking it, and I know it's optional. I am not saying this will hurt anyone or make the game worse. What I am saying is, if you haven't tried it yet, might be worth taking for an actual spin to see the fundamentals in action... I think the vast majority of people will find it a cool gimick but not one that holds up to function like you would expect.
I am not hating, just offering my own experience. When I first heard about head tracking I had all these ideas that sound exactly like what people are saying here and what they are saying sounded like pretty much what I was saying... until I tried it.
Again, details on how it's implimented aren't available yet, but from the videos I have seen and my experience, I say again, the fundamentals (especially for a driving game) prevent it from being intuitive.
With 3 screens you don't need head tracking, you just look at one of the side screens... this is actually very intuitive (because it's exactly how it happens in real life). Unless you mean to actually look behind you or something, in which case, yes you could combine head tracking and 3 screens, but the fundamental problem still exists.
Imagine this:
You are driving your car in real life, you turn your head to about where your rearview is, and what do you see? Straight out your back window.
Or
You are driving your car, you turn your head to look about where your air vent is, and the whole car spins around your head so you are actually looking out the side window... now subtract moementum so not only are is your head not pointing (compared to your body) where it is seeing, but you don't even have momentum to help you realize what direction your car is moving.
It's actually quite dissorienting.
For me, head tracking in racing games is akin to how people thought the wiimote would make FPS games awesome. Just point where you want to look! It doesn't really work like that there, and here (for different reasons) it also doesn't work like people expect.
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- 1,252
- Gottcha
I never thought I would buy a PS Eye until I saw some of those videos....holy crap would that be sweet for GT...
I'll probably wait (hopefully for TGS) to see how it works before I drop money on it, but if it works how I imagine it will, it will be a purchase for me. Oh how sweet this could be.
I'll probably wait (hopefully for TGS) to see how it works before I drop money on it, but if it works how I imagine it will, it will be a purchase for me. Oh how sweet this could be.
- 4,323
I think most people are lacking a 3D capable TV and also aren't crazy about glasses...
- 665
- GTP_HAAS599
- your kiddin' right?
TrackIR is called this because it uses infared tracking technology to work like on the wii for example. The PS eye does not rely on infared technology so I dont think you can directly compare the two systems. TrackIR is far more "finicky" about the setup then the PSeye system will/should be. As far as the game goes, it needs to have 1:1 response just like the steering wheel movement and upcoming motion controllers. Its all about 1:1 for me.
@IsmokeGT
The 3D part of the head tracking is that the camera senses the depth(back/forth) of your head not just the up/down and left/right
@IsmokeGT
The 3D part of the head tracking is that the camera senses the depth(back/forth) of your head not just the up/down and left/right
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- Cardiff/Wales/UK
- jon-o
If I look 45 degrees to the side which i would need to, to look at the mirror i wouldnt be looking at the TV anymore. So will I look 3 degrees for the camera to move 45 so I can see the mirror while looking at the tv still.
- 4,323
TrackIR uses infrared lights, but it does the same thing that the non infrared version does ie track your head movement. The IR is there to make it more exacting as it doesn't have to guess where your head is by interperating a webcam input.
IR is actually probably better than face recognition because of this level of accuracy. Suffice it to say, frome the videos shown so far, the PS3 is just doing the current non IR method which is to recognize a face, lock onto the different parts of it (eyes, nose, mouth etc) and track how they move in relation to each other.
This is exactly the fundamental method I was talking about.
Yes, and the problem is it feels very unnatural and you have probably noticed that when using the right analogue stick to look around, you can make your TV look into the corner but it throws off your feeling for the direction the car is going and make sit useless. Head tracking does the same, only it's a little more convenient (instead of using your thumb you use your head) but you still end up looking at a display that suddenly changed orietnation without you changing orientation.
I can only say, try it with one of the free PC apps to see what I am talking about. It's really not like looking into a corner or looking at the apex and more like your head is on a steel rod attached to your right analog stick and you are just moving it with your chin or something.
BTW the example I was posting before was supposed to be an "if you were actually driving a real car" scenario where by you look at your real rear view mirror but your eyes see directly behind you or some such. It's very dissorienting when your head moves and the POV also shifts, but they aren't 1:1.
It feels natural and intuitive if your head moves and your POV doesn't move (then you just know it's a static POV) or when yoru head moves 1:1 with the POV. Anything else is like wearing fisheye lenses that keep changing their thickness and range in terms of how dissorienting it can be.
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- ll__VENOM__ll
Oh dear.. they must have forgotten about that when designing it !!
Its been mentioned more than once in this thread, a)the movement wont be a 1:1 ratio b) you can move your head but fortunately your eyes are not fixed.... so you can rotate your head and keep your eyes on the tv.
- 4,323
Oh dear.. they must have forgotten about that when designing it !!
Its been mentioned more than once in this thread, a)the movement wont be a 1:1 ration b) you can move your head but fortunately your eyes are not fixed.... so you can rotate your head and keep your eyes on the tv.
And as I keep saying, when you do that it's very dissorienting and not at all like turning your head in real life.
- 665
- GTP_HAAS599
- your kiddin' right?
I think 1:1 would be fine. You dont have to turn your head a full 90 degrees to see beside your car, you only need to turn your head far enough to where what your looking for is just in view on the edge of the screen.
If your looking foward you still get close to 45 degrees of vision on either side if your on a widescreen TV, so you would only have to turn you head 45 degrees to get the side of the car on the edge of the screen.
I also think every slight head movement should be registered onto the screen. Imagine the head shaking a rally car driver goes through and the g forces put on a F1 driver. I think I can handle keeping my head straight on a sofa. To me, its just good driving practice to not try and steer the car with your whole body. I sometimes put my hips into a turn but to drop a shoulder a lean into it seems like something a dude in a lo rider would do. Which makes me think, I find it annoying seeing guys drive while practically laying on the center console. How is that even comfortable?
If your looking foward you still get close to 45 degrees of vision on either side if your on a widescreen TV, so you would only have to turn you head 45 degrees to get the side of the car on the edge of the screen.
I also think every slight head movement should be registered onto the screen. Imagine the head shaking a rally car driver goes through and the g forces put on a F1 driver. I think I can handle keeping my head straight on a sofa. To me, its just good driving practice to not try and steer the car with your whole body. I sometimes put my hips into a turn but to drop a shoulder a lean into it seems like something a dude in a lo rider would do. Which makes me think, I find it annoying seeing guys drive while practically laying on the center console. How is that even comfortable?
- 4,323
Again, you have to try it to see... I totally get what you are saying, and up until I tried it myself, I would have been agreeing and saying the same thing with you.
First off, turning your head, while what you are saying makes sense, it doesn't work in practice. The turning ratio HAS to be increased to make it feasible and the real problem is that while turning your head is natural to look into the apex of a turn, looking out of the very corner of your eye to see the view you should see while looking directly ahead of your face isn't intuitive.
As for holding your head straight, it's not the nead to be perfectly still or straight all the time that is the issue, sure real race drivers experience massive shaking of the head, but the problem is that the direction you see onscreen is relative to your head and so it is often that what looks like straight ahead is actually a few degrees off to the side causing you to feel like your car is drifiting when in reality your point of view is just off a little.
This was an issue with Wii one of the wii FPS, your aim went where the wiimote pointed. Seems straightforward and awesome right? I mean when you really hold a gun, you really hold it pointing forward most of the time no matter what right?
In practice no... it was very unpleasant, your arm and wrist got tired holding the wiimote in place to keep the camera from having the shakes.
Again, this is something you have to try to understand. It's all fine and good to talk about how these issues won't be a problem, but when you really try it, you suddenly see just how unnatural this all is. The whole idea of looking right to change your view, but then having to look out the left side of your eyes at the TV, which never moved relative to your body but just changed pov... I think it's just not a good way to do things.
There is free software to do this on the PC (and while I can't think of the name now, a few years ago I had a free one that did face tracking so no lights needed) so you could try it if you want, but an easy way to fake it is this:
Get a game loaded that supports the right analog stick changing your view to look around.
Have a friend control the right analog stick while watching your head. Drive down a road and have your friend try to match your head movement to the stick to change your pov in the game.
This won't be perfect of course and it depends on your friend doing it right but I think you will quickly see just how unnatural it feels.
Or you can try to do it yourself if you are good at controlling a lot at once, use the right stick to change your view while moving your head around. Again try to match the stick to your head movement.
As for holding your head steady, put a bright light behind yoru head so it casts a shadow of your head on the wall in front of you. Line your head up so it's shadow just touches some stationary objects (like a bookecase or edge of a window etc), now play a game while holding your head so the shadow never moves from these positions.
I gaurantee you about 5 minutes into it you will be thinking you have head your head perfectly still for hours.
The reason it needs to be perfectly still and not just mostly still? Constant little jiggles on the screen from a moving head really get annoying quickly, and no it's not at all like experiencing a bumpy road while riding in a car, hard to explain but it's just not. This and the fact that I talked about above whereby if your head moves a few inches either way, it can throw off your view so what looks straight ahead isn't, however it won't be enough to easily notice on screen so you will be constantly feeling slightly off center.
We can talk about it all you want and how you are sure these issues won't really be issues... but I have done it... they are issues. I am just telling you how it works. Watch the video of the guy playing grid in the news section... you will notice the only times he uses the head tracking to change his view is when he is sitting still, or when he is burning out just to kind of show it off. During all his actual driving... nothing... why? Becuase it's actually a dissorienting thing to use while trying to control a car.
And before anyone says "it's not released yet, you don't know how Sony will do it" we have seen the video of how it works, it's exactly how my head tracking software worked. And there are only so many ways it can work, again it's the fundamentals of how it works at questino here, not the details.
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- 717
- ll__VENOM__ll
The PC version of this has been around for a while now, its not new and Sony is not the first to bring it to gaming. The reviews I have seen and read all seem to indicate it works and works well. If it felt so weird and unnatural surely it would be mentioned by people other than those who are speculating on it.
http://www.flightsimdaily.com/reviews/trackir-4-pro-trackclip-pro-review/
Watch the video and pay attention to the "motion scaling" mentioned.
I could argue that using a stick and trigger to mimic steering and throttle is not a 1:1 ratio and would seem a totally unnatural way to drive a car at speed, yet the cerebellum handles this with amazing aptitude, this will be no different... as you see its nots just head rotation, but movement.
http://www.flightsimdaily.com/reviews/trackir-4-pro-trackclip-pro-review/
Watch the video and pay attention to the "motion scaling" mentioned.
I could argue that using a stick and trigger to mimic steering and throttle is not a 1:1 ratio and would seem a totally unnatural way to drive a car at speed, yet the cerebellum handles this with amazing aptitude, this will be no different... as you see its nots just head rotation, but movement.
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- 4,323
As I said before, it does work better in the world of flightsims. Flying isn't quite the split second, inches from crashing all the time thing car racing is. It's a completely different feel, the only time it really is is during a close dogfight or last second emergency and every time I am in those I find my head locked forward becuase rotating around is too dissorienting to risk.
It's hard to explain why, but in a flight sim it feels lot more natural. Less like you are trying to mimic what you would do in real life, and more like you are controlling a camera attached to your skull.
Flying tends to be a slower, more forgiving, graceful event, racing is not the same and the usefulness and effect of head tracking parallels this.
I see where you are going with the 1:1 ratio of throttle and steering, but trust me, it's not the same... one is a matter of learning how much travel results in what onscreen, the other actually messes with your orientation. Your feeling of being attached to the game world is broken when you turn your head, the game world also turns (including your car and seat) yet your body feels no change.
Again, trust me, try it yourself, it sounds good in theory, it doesn't work well in reality.
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- ll__VENOM__ll
Zer0
(Banned)
- 1,624
On every post that disagree with you or like the idea?
I see a lot of effort to convince us how a big flaw the tracking will be.
Fact: There are people that hate cocpkpit views and can't play with it, there are people that love it. If the technology exists PD are smart enought to made playable and tune it right to be friendly for most of us.
I don't understand your insistence, you are acting like if is not for you then is not for nobody. Just wait until they show how work and have in mind that there are people that actually use it with racing games and like it.
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