Head Tracking Confirmed for GT5!!!

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You're right send us your picture ! :)

By the way this techno is much more accurate than just your position of your head. It can recognize you and your face expressions.
I wonder what could be the implementation of that in GT5.

Web cams on PCs have had software to do this for quite some time (Creative Live cams noteably). Recognizing expressions is just doing what has always been done (isolating parts such as eyes, nose, mouth corners etc) and looking how they move relative to each other. Note these are the same webcams many use for the non IR head tracking solutions and the tech involved is really the software more than the hardware.

In terms of head tracking in the way it is used in racing games, the ability to track expressions is not very pertinant. Precision is not as important in expression recognition as is relativity to other parts of the face. For accurate head tracking, precision is what counts.

For instance I could recognize someone is smiling through blurry glasses, but I would be hard pressed to tell they had rotated their head 5 degrees if my view was blurry. Same basic idea for the PSeye doing the head tracking.
 
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Web cams on PCs have had software to do this for quite some time (Creative Live cams noteably). Recognizing expressions is just doing what has always been done (isolating parts such as eyes, nose, mouth corners etc) and looking how they move relative to each other. Note these are the same webcams many use for the non IR head tracking solutions and the tech involved is really the software more than the hardware.


only difference is webcams are better and the software is better and the hardware running it is better, but its just the same right?
 
only difference is webcams are better and the software is better and the hardware running it is better, but its just the same right?

I don't know, what are the specs on the PSeye? But again, it's down to fundamentals of how it works, not the details of what's making it work.

The point I was making though is that you can't really say that this technology is better because it can track your head location and expressions. Many people don't understand where hardware and software responsibilty end in terms of performance and ability and assume things like "If the PSeye can recognize facial expressions, it's better than a cam that doesn't" when in reality, it could be the exact same hardware, or even worse, just have better software backing it for this particular function.

And again it comes down to the fundamentals of how head tracking works. Being able to recognize expressions is impressive, but when you look at how it's done, it has little bearing with how head tracking is done. Registering large changes like a change in height of an eyebrow or the opening of a mouth is one kind of accuracy, however being able to recognize you turned yoru head slightly is a different kind as the difference in what the camera sees (especially at a distance) could be less than 1 pixel or less than the cameras level of sensitivity.

To say a cam that can track expressions must be better than one that can't would be akin to saying my car could tow more than than your truck because my car has a higher top speed thus must be better.

Again, get some blurry glasses or something, look at a persons face, have them smile, have them wink etc. Despite being blurry, you can still tell what's happening.

Now have them sit still and rotate their head slightly to one side, try it from acrosst he room... much harder to discern.

I am just pointing out that you need to understand the fundamentals of how something works before making assumptions about how any particular piece of equipment will perform at that job.
 
I thought you had to put a stupid dot on your head for these things to work. If not then i'm impressed, if so then how's it any different to a simplified version of motion capture?
 
Face recognition, PS3 and PSEye can do this with the right software.
No need for something on your head.

I meant the tracker bit. In a demo i saw of it being demonstrated, the guy had a red dot on his forehead.

And no he wasn't an Indian
 
Yes, because his demo didnt use face recognition software.
You need something on your head for TrackIR too, but it wouldnt be a problem for GT5 if they can implement a proper face recognition software, which was showcased... yesterday or even today btw.

Gimme a second.

EDIT: Voila:
 
The only way I could see it working for me is if you could program it so that: Instead of turning your head left and right to turn the picture left and right, you tilt your head left and right.
That way you aren't moving your field of view away from the screen or having to watch out the corner of your eye. Might make you feel a bit
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at first though...
 
The only way I could see it working for me is if you could program it so that: Instead of turning your head left and right to turn the picture left and right, you tilt your head left and right.
That way you aren't moving your field of view away from the screen or having to watch out the corner of your eye. Might make you feel a bit
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at first though...

Hmmm... interesting idea, I had never thought about that... it does sound like it could be slightly better than turning your head but also could be kind of awkward... who knows, might work well though! Let's hope they add it as an option!
 
it´s a good solution to adjust the view on screen by TILTING your head instead of turning it. in reality due to withstand the g-forces the drivers (especially in F1) tilt their heads inside the corner. this might be a little awkward in the beginning (no gforces in front of your TV), but i´m sure it would work fine for entering corners. tilting your head to look sideways on long straights just to see outside the side window might be different though.
 
Surely tracking the eye would be better than having to turn your head and keep your eye fixed forwards. All you would need to do would be to look to the side of the screen. Is eye tracking possible?
 
Yes, because his demo didnt use face recognition software.
You need something on your head for TrackIR too, but it wouldnt be a problem for GT5 if they can implement a proper face recognition software, which was showcased... yesterday or even today btw.

Gimme a second.

EDIT: Voila:


Thanks for posting that video. It was hard trying to convince some others on another forum that this can be done with out IR and with the PS Eye camera. 👍
 
You know, this could work if you use video glasses, because the display is mounted on your head, thus it follows the direction of your face. Paired with this face tracking system, and it could end up solving the issue of the "static display".
 
Surely tracking the eye would be better than having to turn your head and keep your eye fixed forwards. All you would need to do would be to look to the side of the screen. Is eye tracking possible?

Eye tracking is possible but not with the PSeye, at least not feasibly.

Eye tracking is usually done by bouncing a laser off the retina and measuring the angle it reflects at.

With the PSeye it would literally have to track your eye movement via normal camera picture. So the camera would have to be very close to see enough detail to do it, and then the camera would have to be attached to your head somehow so it could accurately deteremine if your eye was moving relative to your head and not just your whole head/body.

Also this would make it very hard to look at the screen while looking to the side to trigger the movement.

You might think "just center the camera where I look" but that is a tricky one to work becuase if you look to the side, the camera moves, you are now lookinga t something else and the camera tries to center there, repeat... I would think this would lead to a very flaoty, hard to control way to control the camera.
 
I think it could be fun to use head tracking to navigate the main menu. You could turn your head left or right and it goes to the icon that your head is facing. You could select the icon by nodding your head down or something.
 
I think it could be fun to use head tracking to navigate the main menu. You could turn your head left or right and it goes to the icon that your head is facing. You could select the icon by nodding your head down or something.

Here is a free head tracking mouse program for pc http://www.cameramouse.org/index.html

give it a try, can be done with a regular cam like the pseye but isn't full head tracking (like depth and tilt). This would probably be about how it feels to use it on menus. To actually track the direction your eye looks would probably involve bouncing lasers off your retina and the camera to be very close to your face.
 
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^^^Very cool!

I'm not saying to use this feature for every menu though, just the main menu because it is simple, fun, and would introduce the feature in a way.

I think head-tracking is a feature that can be used for more than just in-game camera movement and I hope PD find some great and unexpected uses for it.
 
I have a feeling that it's not quite what most here are thinking and isn't like the rfactor tracking. Most games, although drawn in 3D are on a flat screen and the image of a scene remains the same on the screen no matter what angle the screen is viewed from. headtracking allows you to look at the screen as if it's a window, if you stand up/raise you head you can look down through the window and see more of the ground or floor in front of you or if you move closer to it you can see a wider field of view. I suspect if it is used that it'll be a lot more subtle than trackIR and will be more a visual cue for the brain to interpret the image as a more convincing 3d world rather than for looking around the cockpit.
 
I have a feeling that it's not quite what most here are thinking and isn't like the rfactor tracking. Most games, although drawn in 3D are on a flat screen and the image of a scene remains the same on the screen no matter what angle the screen is viewed from. headtracking allows you to look at the screen as if it's a window, if you stand up/raise you head you can look down through the window and see more of the ground or floor in front of you or if you move closer to it you can see a wider field of view. I suspect if it is used that it'll be a lot more subtle than trackIR and will be more a visual cue for the brain to interpret the image as a more convincing 3d world rather than for looking around the cockpit.

good point, I'll be waiting for Devedander's inevitable response :nervous:
 
If that is the case then there won't be any keeping your neck stiff and trying to keep your eyes on the screen as you turn your head. Instead it'll use your natural movement as you're playing to enhance the realism as well as being able to change your pov to some extent such as moving your head forward or to the side to see past the pillars the way you would naturally.
 
good point, I'll be waiting for Devedander's inevitable response :nervous:

Here it is.

I have a feeling that it's not quite what most here are thinking and isn't like the rfactor tracking. Most games, although drawn in 3D are on a flat screen and the image of a scene remains the same on the screen no matter what angle the screen is viewed from. headtracking allows you to look at the screen as if it's a window, if you stand up/raise you head you can look down through the window and see more of the ground or floor in front of you or if you move closer to it you can see a wider field of view. I suspect if it is used that it'll be a lot more subtle than trackIR and will be more a visual cue for the brain to interpret the image as a more convincing 3d world rather than for looking around the cockpit.

I actually already covered this response earlier but in short:

This seems like it wouldn't be very useful in a driving game because... well imagine it in action. How would you use it?

The looking through a window method means that as you move your head to the left, you see more out the right side of the window. What's more, in order for the illusion to work, the movement will have to be 1:1 vs the movement of what you see on screen. Whats more this is not a head rotation tracking method (although it could be but you then run right back into the issue of TRACKIR dissorientation) so it's a lot like the left analog stick on an FPS game in terms of how it changes your view point. In an FPS you actually move using the left stick so it's not really the same, but if you are looking across any significant distance, the effect is very similar. Take COD4 for example, look across a large open area of the map. Move the left stick to the left. See how your view changes? That's similar to the looking through the window method of head tracking.

So try this:

Sit in your car and make a little box out of your hands (movie director style how they frame stuff). Hold it a few inches in front of your face so it replicates about your field of view in a racing game. In order to simulate the view change of your tv in "window" mode of head tracking, you must keep your face looking forward. Yes in real life you would turn your head down and right and look out the bottom right of your "window" but you can't do that on your TV... below and to the right of your TV is... no TV so there is no picture to see.

Now move your head so that you can see your stick shift.

Remember to keep your hands stationary while they form the "window". This is because unless your TV can move down off the wall to where you are looking, that is what you will be dealing with while using head tracking. Also remember keep your head facing forward because we aren't dealing with tracking you turning your head (this is again the TRACKIR method, introduces problems and isn't accurately represented by using a frame in front of your face because what's behind the frame here is actually 3d, on your TV it isn't).

How did you have to move your head? To lood down and right, you have to move your head way up and left.

Want to see your left rear view? You must move your head way over to the right.

This is how wii head tracking works and is the non TRACKIR method.

You game "window" always looks forward, you just change the angle at which you look through it.

Now you could try to mesh this with some kind of head tracking of how you turn your head also, but that brings you right back to the problems of the TRACKIR method.

I know you guys all thing I am being a wet towel here and trying to rain on your parades, but it's truly just how it is. Like I said I have tried head tracking a log over the years, and so far the problem with head tracking is that the display stays put. This makes turning your head style head tracking dissorienting especially in fast paced environments like racing. I thought initially just like you all probably do that this would be awesome and be just like VR and totally be a natural extenstion to looking at games. Well in some ways it does work out that way, but in many circumstances it just doesn't.

The wii head tracking style where your TV becomes more of a window is a lot less dissorienting, but you will find that at any decent distance from a display which is of any decent size, you have to make very large movements to significantly change your angle of view in the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

There is the original wii head tracking video. Around 3:35 he starts showing the window method of head tracking. Imagine that instead of looking at a football stadium, he is looking at the cockpit view from a car. Now where would the stickshift be? Down to the the right somewhere... watch as he moves around and figure out what he would have to do to see down and to the right. He already moves quite far with his "head" in the video and if that was a car view, it woudln't be nearly enough to see the stick shift or a rear view mirror or anything.

Here is the wii style head tracking in use. This is actually more full body tracking, but where your head goes yoru body follows so the result is very similar to head tracking. This is an old arcade game called Police 911.

Starting about 3 minutes into it you can see what I am saying about having to move your head to significantly change your view, and you will see that as the view point changes, you don't get to see stuff immediately around you so much, you see stuff that was off to the sides in the distance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcfUE4ZcqRI


So yes, if it's used, it would be more subtle and natural to help you feel the 3d of the game, but it would not allow you to see things outside your normal field of view with much ease.
 
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I am wondering how close we will have to be to the camera for it to work. I have a really big TV and sit far away because it is a functional room not a cool racing stand setup like some of you have.
 
In order to simulate the view change of your tv in "window" mode of head tracking, you must keep your face looking forward. Yes in real life you would turn your head down and right and look out the bottom right of your "window" but you can't do that on your TV... below and to the right of your TV is... no TV so there is no picture to see.

Solution:

myvu_lead.jpg

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playstation-eye-hands-on-20070924055536141-000.jpg
 
I am wondering how close we will have to be to the camera for it to work. I have a really big TV and sit far away because it is a functional room not a cool racing stand setup like some of you have.

And how well lit... the lower the light the longer the sensor needs to collect a useable amount of light. This tends to lead to bad performance in low light as the image becomes blurry and streaky during motion.

Solution:

myvu_lead.jpg

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playstation-eye-hands-on-20070924055536141-000.jpg

Yes, glasses are a solution to 3d head tracking, but in general people seem to have a negative opinion of using glasses and they would add to the cost dramatically not to mention limit the experience to only as many people as have glasses.
 
Hi Devedander, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue until we get to actually see it in action.
You're looking at it thinking it's purpose is to let you look around by rotating the camera using head movements then you point out several problems associated with that. My reasoning takes me back to the first time I saw GT running on the PSX, it blew me away, I'd never seen anything like it before, the way the cars moved and reacted on the track and is what made me buy a PSX. The philosophy through the GT series has been to give as real an experience as they can and the graphics, physics, sound etc. have been continually improving to make it more realistic. With the headtracking as I think it will be, it'll add a whole new depth to the graphics and how the player will percieve the virtual world beyond the screen with the players natural movement while playing showing up as a subtle change in view which if it works well will be an extremely powerful visual cue for the brain, so I'm not really thinking about how useful it'll be in terms of looking down at the gearstick although if the mirrors are positioned at the edges of the screen then some movement could allow them to come into view without them taking much screenspace normally.
 
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