"Headlights and Rain Are Hard" -Dan Greenawalt

[Kake Bake]

In round two of this weird damage control series of recent interviews, Dan talks with IGN about what not to expect ever in Forza Motorsport (hint: night and weather).

Adding night and weather to an existing course "is not a minor thing, it is not a 'add a little bit of time, throw it in' thing," Greenawalt said. "When we do things, we do it all the way. That means physics, that means changing conditions, that means everything. So that is not the sort of thing that is easily undertaken in a patch.”

 

[ReverenceSatans]

Your reading comprehension is poor.

He is talking about updates to FM5.

One T10 drop the baked lighting engine they have been using since FM1 which they will do eventually) dynamic time of day will appear straight away as it would actually be easier than setting a different time of day for each track.

As for weather, if they do it to the "standard" seen in GT6, they shouldn't even bother.

 

[BoneSawTX]

I knew FM5 it was out of the question once they announced it wasn't part of the game. Fingers crossed for FM6 maybe for night. I just want to run the 24 hours of Le Mans and Spa. Weather on the other hand, I can live without.

 

[greekbull]

Night and Weather would certainly be nice to have but only if it's at the level we have for FM5 driving now. I would much rather have that then a shoddy attempt at the effects. And I'm sure it won't be for FM5....maybe down the road.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

The title is not at all what he said but whatever.

They are already starting to add headlights so you know they are working their way toward at least night racing. Plus with all the negative feedback about lack of weather and lack of night racing, we can hope its in F6. I was going to post more, but I have already said it many times.

 

[HAL20XX]

All he said was don't expect it in a patch, which he said months ago as well.

 

[I'm Motarded]

Night and Weather would certainly be nice to have but only if it's at the level we have for FM5 driving now.

That's going to be tough. Perhaps impossible if they keep updating the graphics. If they're going to add these things they need to do it soon or the rest of the game will keep advancing to the point where no matter how they try to add these two features they won't meet those standards and will be continually left out.

In short. they set the bar to high for themselves.

 

[Kake Bake]

Your reading comprehension is poor.

He is talking about updates to FM5.

One T10 drop the baked lighting engine they have been using since FM1 which they will do eventually) dynamic time of day will appear straight away as it would actually be easier than setting a different time of day for each track.

As for weather, if they do it to the "standard" seen in GT6, they shouldn't even bother.

Well, all I'm reading into it is that MS has them on a short leash with their stupid biennial release schedule, and that, coupled with the fact that T10 seem to sell enough copies without the inclusion of night and weather, means they're unlikely to find the time or be bothered to implement it.

Also, it's just strange that Dan doesn't want to put night and weather in until it can be done perfectly, but cockpits aren't perfect (no actual shifting, numb steering), Forzavista isn't perfect (no engines for some cars), the livery editor still has beaucoup hitches and eccentricities and the time changes in Forza 4 were pretty hinky as well.

When it comes down to it, night and weather don't really matter to me. At least not in Forza. I can go to GT when I want to turn out the lights and just come back to Forza when I actually want to drive a car.

 

[phillgt2002]

Forza is getting pretty damn lame as Greenawalt keeps speaking. He should just be quiet.

 

[BoneSawTX]

Forza is getting pretty damn lame as Greenawalt keeps speaking. He should just be quiet.

How so?

 

[phillgt2002]

How so?

I'm sure it's just me, but I keep imagining his voice explaining features of the game over and over again. Also, these things were the reason why FM4 didn't have night racing, and to have different hardware there isn't much excuse. He also goes on about how he's disappointed in the fan reception, and in other words he's admitting that he and his studio have been caught trying to monetize. No pity from me. I even doubt FM6 will have night and weather.

 

[Symtex]

I'm sure it's just me, but I keep imagining his voice explaining features of the game over and over again. Also, these things were the reason why FM4 didn't have night racing, and to have different hardware there isn't much excuse. He also goes on about how he's disappointed in the fan reception, and in other words he's admitting that he and his studio have been caught trying to monetize. No pity from me. I even doubt FM6 will have night and weather.

I hate night racing. I am glad it's not there.

I don't understand your point of view. There is no paywall in the game. You can earn a good amount of credit easily. All the complaint are just lazy gamers trying to get more **** for free.

 

[somebodysb2]

Dan Greenawalt reminds me of Shantanu Narayen.


He never answers questions, just dodges them with the same tired and vague PR damage control response.

 

[Imari]

He also goes on about how he's disappointed in the fan reception, and in other words he's admitting that he and his studio have been caught trying to monetize.

Not at all. He goes on about the fan reception because he thinks they don't understand that they produced all the assets from scratch. He's rightly disappointed that the work they've done isn't acknowledged by the fans, but at the same time he's trying to respond to criticism to make the game into something that is more to the fans tastes.

What's he supposed to say about microtransactions? He's never going to say "yeah, you're right, we had this big meeting before production to figure out how best to bend the customer over. We spent weeks with dildoes trying to get accuracy in our anal reaming simulation and everything."

And that's probably all that's going to satisfy some people. Him continuing to say "we've had tokens for several games now, we thought we'd tweaked them to make them better but we messed up" just isn't good enough for some, they want blood. And they're unlikely to get it.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

If it isn't one sim racing game we're waiting to come up to date it's another. Geez I really get tired of the idea of how they can't innovate any better. The only reason they're alive at this point (GT or FM) is due to the flailing both do in areas that computer sims squared away many years ago. PD and T10 better hope SMS doesn't have tons of success with PCars this upcoming year.

 

[somebodysb2]

Not at all. He goes on about the fan reception because he thinks they don't understand that they produced all the assets from scratch. He's rightly disappointed that the work they've done isn't acknowledged by the fans, but at the same time he's trying to respond to criticism to make the game into something that is more to the fans tastes.

What's he supposed to say about microtransactions? He's never going to say "yeah, you're right, we had this big meeting before production to figure out how best to bend the customer over. We spent weeks with dildoes trying to get accuracy in our anal reaming simulation and everything."

And that's probably all that's going to satisfy some people. Him continuing to say "we've had tokens for several games now, we thought we'd tweaked them to make them better but we messed up" just isn't good enough for some, they want blood. And they're unlikely to get it.

This stoicism is whats going to eternally bastardise AAA gaming. What's next? A Forza Premium service in vain of Call of Duty: Elite?

PD and T10 better hope SMS doesn't have tons of success with PCars this upcoming year.

SMS will never reach a fraction of what PD or T10 have sold. They simply do not have the traction and connections to make it happen by themselves. Heck, their console versions will probably be digital releases instead of digital+boxed copy. The luxury of letting EA handle everything else (marketing, suppliers, contacts, etc.) is gone.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

SMS will never reach a fraction of what PD or T10 have sold. They simply do not have the traction and connections to make it happen by themselves. Heck, their console versions will probably be digital releases instead of digital+boxed copy. The luxury of letting EA handle everything else (marketing, suppliers, contacts, etc.) is gone.

No one is saying that they have to beat PD and T10 and word of mouth is a strong tool if you remember or played GT1 back in the day that is what helped it grow. Also I don't know where you studied math but, there are infinite amount of fractions so, obviously they'll make some variation of fractional sales to PD and T10, maybe not one of significance to you but a fraction none the less.

If you are actually apart of the SMS board that is working on PCars to have this insight that'd be nice to know, I haven't seen you on the thread dedicated to said game.

Either way the fact that it's multi platform, which will help it out even more and I'm sure they have people to help with Marketing in their own group. They don't need EA to ruin their games and control them.

 

[somebodysb2]

No one is saying that they have to beat PD and T10 and word of mouth is a strong tool if you remember or played GT1 back in the day that is what helped it grow. Also I don't know where you studied math but, there are infinite amount of fractions so, obviously they'll make some variation of fractional sales to PD and T10, maybe not one of significance to you but a fraction none the less.

If you are actually apart of the SMS board that is working on PCars to have this insight that'd be nice to know, I haven't seen you on the thread dedicated to said game.

Either way the fact that it's multi platform, which will help it out even more and I'm sure they have people to help with Marketing in their own group. They don't need EA to ruin their games and control them.

But GT1 was already riding on the success/small following of the MTGP2 mini-game: Motor Toon Grand Prix R. It also had SCE's blessings as a first party title.

PCars on the other hand reminds me of Race Pro's release on the 360. Unmatched physics on the 360? Very strong if small list of content? A commercial flop? Yes, Yes, and Yes.

EA ruining games or not, at the end of the day gaming is not a charity and (had they not supposedly severed their ties) SMS would gladly work again with EA because they will inevitably make more money.

However I'm not part of the little member thing that SMS has going on so as they say, anything can happen right?

 

[Imari]

This stoicism is whats going to eternally bastardise AAA gaming. What's next? A Forza Premium service in vain of Call of Duty: Elite?

What stoicism? I don't like microtransactions and I don't make use of them. I don't try and convince others to make use of them. But as long as it's not pay-to-win and the economy isn't broken to an extent that you're required to pay to play at a reasonable rate, I don't see the problem with having it as an option. What idiots want to do with their money is no concern of mine.

FM5 was pretty borderline economy-wise before this last adjustment. To a certain extent every company is out to make money, so there's no real surprises there. But they're not idiots, and their response to community feedback shows pretty strongly that they'll take as much as they can as long as it doesn't affect their image.

You can choose to believe that when they say that they messed up and are attempting to fix it because the effect the microtransactions and economy has had was not what they intended. Or you can believe that they're money grubbing assholes out to squeeze us for every last penny. Both are sort of true, but I have a suspicion that in a long running game like Forza sacrificing their good name to make a quick buck isn't part of the plan.


I do accept that there's only so much work a group of people can do in two years, and sympathise with them getting reamed for lack of content. There was nothing they could do about that given their position on quality assets.

 

[somebodysb2]

What stoicism? I don't like microtransactions and I don't make use of them. I don't try and convince others to make use of them. But as long as it's not pay-to-win and the economy isn't broken to an extent that you're required to pay to play at a reasonable rate, I don't see the problem with having it as an option. What idiots want to do with their money is no concern of mine.

FM5 was pretty borderline economy-wise before this last adjustment. To a certain extent every company is out to make money, so there's no real surprises there. But they're not idiots, and their response to community feedback shows pretty strongly that they'll take as much as they can as long as it doesn't affect their image.

You can choose to believe that when they say that they messed up and are attempting to fix it because the effect the microtransactions and economy has had was not what they intended. Or you can believe that they're money grubbing assholes out to squeeze us for every last penny. Both are sort of true, but I have a suspicion that in a long running game like Forza sacrificing their good name to make a quick buck isn't part of the plan.

I do accept that there's only so much work a group of people can do in two years, and sympathise with them getting reamed for lack of content. There was nothing they could do about that given their position on quality assets.

The point is that they will continue to ramp up micro-transactions until they have reached the absolute "breaking point". RE: Forza micro-transactions; FM4 was mild and bearable, FH raised eyebrows but didn't fundamentally change anything, and FM5 put things dangerously close to full-on "pay to enjoy". You just know that its going to be even worse in FM6.

 

[ReverenceSatans]

Not at all. He goes on about the fan reception because he thinks they don't understand that they produced all the assets from scratch.

I don't think he understands we know that is not true at all.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

But GT1 was already riding on the success/small following of the MTGP2 mini-game: Motor Toon Grand Prix R. It also had SCE's blessings as a first party title.

And outside of Japan it really didn't have any promotion and wasn't blown up, it started as a cult type car game and then expanded due to it being the most realistic game of its time on the console. Thus even with the blessing and all that jazz it is only somewhat higher in acknowledgement compared to today's Pcars and will all the social connectivity it will pass through word of mouth faster.

PCars on the other hand reminds me of Race Pro's release on the 360. Unmatched physics on the 360? Very strong if small list of content? A commercial flop? Yes, Yes, and Yes.

So due to that you've come to this conclusion...that's some immense evidence you have there.

EA ruining games or not, at the end of the day gaming is not a charity and (had they not supposedly severed their ties) SMS would gladly work again with EA because they will inevitably make more money.

No they wouldn't, there is a reason SMS wanted to be away from EA, and they state it quite openly, and those who have signed up for PCars that still play or got a refund all saw this. So once again to what capacity did you?

However I'm not part of the little member thing that SMS has going on so as they say, anything can happen right?

Sure it can, and little member thing sounds insulting, but then again you seem an advocate for what is mainstream and readily able to shut down the chances of independent groups.

 

[somebodysb2]

And outside of Japan it really didn't have any promotion and wasn't blown up, it started as a cult type car game and then expanded due to it being the most realistic game of its time on the console. Thus even with the blessing and all that jazz it is only somewhat higher in acknowledgement compared to today's Pcars and will all the social connectivity it will pass through word of mouth faster.

I don't think that word of mouth is going to buttress PCars' console release to the point where it will genuinely worry AAA first party developers. The assumption that PCars will be a cult hit because GT1 was is a bit far-fetched don't you think?

So due to that you've come to this conclusion...that's some immense evidence you have there.

No they wouldn't, there is a reason SMS wanted to be away from EA, and they state it quite openly, and those who have signed up for PCars that still play or got a refund all saw this. So once again to what capacity did you?

Hey, if you believe that PCars will completely revolutionise the gaming landscape then more power to you. I merely presented my reasons on why PCars won't be as great a success as you think it will be, so don't put words in my mouth and act as if I've killed what you love.

Sure it can, and little member thing sounds insulting, but then again you seem an advocate for what is mainstream and readily able to shut down the chances of independent groups.

What? Do you actually think that SMS are at level where PD/T10 would actively worry about them? This is not about "shutting down indies", this is about having a realistic point of view.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't think that word of mouth is going to buttress PCars' console release to the point where it will genuinely worry AAA first party developers. The assumption that PCars will be a cult hit because GT1 was is a bit far-fetched don't you think?

Well we don't know do we, but you're the one with the crystal ball at the moment so you tell me.

Hey, if you believe that PCars will completely revolutionise the gaming landscape then more power to you. I merely presented my reasons on why PCars won't be as great a success as you think it will be, so don't put words in my mouth and act as if I've killed what you love.

I never said that that would happen, so thanks for twisting what I said. However, you seem to think that in this day and age or imply that independent firms can't compete when they've been growing. SMS may very well do the same or they may not, but to get a fixed position already on it because of a bias is ignorant. I never said it would be a great success nor think that, rather just saying unless you have something concrete other than you hunch provide that instead of conjecture. Killed what I love? Well Gt is was I love as far as console racing sims go, someone defending the unknown against someone that thinks they know what the hell they're spewing isn't a sign of love.

What? Do you actually think that SMS are at level where PD/T10 would actively worry about them? This is not about "shutting down indies", this is about having a realistic point of view.

Problem with your analysis is that there was a time that T10 was scoffed at and not seen as a threat to GT/PD and for the first two maybe three games it was seen that way with it slowly gaining traction. There are no signs that SMS will stop making sim racing games and so the Pcars name could do the same and that is really the angle I'm talking from. Not saying without any evidence since this hasn't happened, that it will fail absolutely, I mean if you want to go that route give me the lotto numbers for the next big power ball please.

 

[Spagetti69]

Well I think the games speak for themselves in this case.

Mojang(not sure if spelt correctly lol) has a breakout hit with minecraft. Team Ico has only ever banged out two games too. They haven't done bad for themselves.
Pretty sure there's more examples than that.

The P.cars debate is an interesting one because it's simultaneously taking on a Monopolised market in there own Different platforms.
Forza pretty much is the go to for Xbox without any real challenges to its crown. GT being the PS equivalent.
Oddly it's the casual gamer who will determine the sales success.
Hardcore racing fans will buy P.cars in droves if it delivers. Casuals will buy the "Brand" games for there respective consoles GT,Forza etc.

To be honest I hope P.Cars delivers on all platforms and expectations. The winner is the consumer. GT,Forza need competition on there own platforms to push there backsides.

 

[somebodysb2]

Well we don't know do we, but you're the one with the crystal ball at the moment so you tell me.

I'll tell you: My prediction at the moment is that PCars will enjoy some success to the degree where it would attract a 40,000-strong active and dedicated player base across both consoles. I'm coming from the July 2012 statistic of 35,000 iRacing members. i.e. PCars won't completely fall on its face and won't absolutely crush the establish franchises.

I never said that that would happen, so thanks for twisting what I said. However, you seem to think that in this day and age or imply that independent firms can't compete when they've been growing. SMS may very well do the same or they may not, but to get a fixed position already on it because of a bias is ignorant. I never said it would be a great success nor think that, rather just saying unless you have something concrete other than you hunch provide that instead of conjecture. Killed what I love? Well Gt is was I love as far as console racing sims go, someone defending the unknown against someone that thinks they know what the hell they're spewing isn't a sign of love.

I'm not an eternal optimist. I'm also not the PCars "HATER" you are trying to paint me as. Like I said before, anything is possible and there is nothing wrong to having an objective lean to the topic at hand.

Problem with your analysis is that there was a time that T10 was scoffed at and not seen as a threat to GT/PD and for the first two maybe three games it was seen that way with it slowly gaining traction. There are no signs that SMS will stop making sim racing games and so the Pcars name could do the same and that is really the angle I'm talking from. Not saying without any evidence since this hasn't happened, that it will fail absolutely, I mean if you want to go that route give me the lotto numbers for the next big power ball please.

So SMS can fail and SMS can succeed. My thoughts exactly! I suppose where you and I differ is that I discount the possibility that SMS has a mega-seller in the making.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I'll tell you: My prediction at the moment is that PCars will enjoy some success to the degree where it would attract a 40,000-strong active and dedicated player base across both consoles. I'm coming from the July 2012 statistic of 35,000 iRacing members. i.e. PCars won't completely fall on its face and won't absolutely crush the establish franchises.

So it's worse than I thought, I at least thought you'd say half a million units moved. I'm sure that if SMS only thought 40,000 or slightly more were going to be sold they wouldn't have made the contract with users they did.

I'm not an eternal optimist. I'm also not the PCars "HATER" you are trying to paint me as. Like I said before, anything is possible and there is nothing wrong to having an objective lean to the topic at hand.

Cute keep calm image, I'm quite calm I just like to argue if you don't like that we can stop. It's not objective though? You've clearly picked a side, and I feel if you weren't challenged you'd have stuck to it and never said "but anything can happen". I never decided a side I just stated what I did because you vehemently said the opposite (since I like to argue).

So SMS can fail and SMS can succeed. My thoughts exactly! I suppose where you and I differ is that I discount the possibility that SMS has a mega-seller in the making.

I'm sure they are now. Well if you can point to where I said the game was going to be a mega-seller then I'd concede but I never did and furthermore I established through my posting that the game will have a good chance of gathering attention and build from there with subsequent successor games like other racing games have done.

 

[somebodysb2]

So it's worse than I thought, I at least thought you'd say half a million units moved. I'm sure that if SMS only thought 40,000 or slightly more were going to be sold they wouldn't have made the contract with users they did.

40,000 Active and dedicated player base. The people playing it day-in day-out, completely engrossed in it, buying up all the DLC, participating on forums, etc. Now that you've bought units moved into the equation, I'd say 150,000+ total until EOL. A third of that on launch day though.

Cute keep calm image, I'm quite calm I just like to argue if you don't like that we can stop. It's not objective though? You've clearly picked a side, and I feel if you weren't challenged you'd have stuck to it and never said "but anything can happen". I never decided a side I just stated what I did because you vehemently said the opposite (since I like to argue).

I like to argue as well! So yeah, I can completely relate to that/I just think that forum arguing is really fun albeit time consuming. It's just like debate.

RE: Anything can happen; If SMS does succeed massively then racing game players will have yet another franchise in the gaming "race". Things can either go the same as before or even better, a neutral-win situation is always nice.

I'm sure they are now. Well if you can point to where I said the game was going to be a mega-seller then I'd concede but I never did and furthermore I established through my posting that the game will have a good chance of gathering attention and build from there with subsequent successor games like other racing games have done.

I agree, the only way this game can go is up. For example the Eurogamer articles on it definitely put it on the mainstream perspective.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

40,000 Active and dedicated player base. The people playing it day-in day-out, completely engrossed in it, buying up all the DLC, participating on forums, etc. Now that you've bought units moved into the equation, I'd say 200,000+ total until EOL. A third of that on launch day though.

Actually that is what I was getting at all along. Well you were slightly less then what I thought but somewhat close.

I like to argue as well! I did some competitive debate a while ago and forums really help me stay on my toes so I can completely relate to that/I just think that arguing is really fun albeit time consuming. RE: Anything can happen; If SMS does succeed massively then racing game players will have yet another franchise in the gaming "race". Things can either go the same as before or even better, a neutral-win situation is always nice.

Yeah I did the same in college and on forums and else where on the net, it's a great way to expand your mind. 👍. I got time though now since my semester is over, might as well spend it doing something that I actually enjoy. Well I'd agree that a neutral situation is best, and I'd rather most stay objective even if they have a preference to racing games, all should be welcomed to help improve or push their favorite racing sim.

I agree, the only way this game can go is up. For example the Eurogamer articles on it definitely put it on the mainstream perspective.

And that is basically why I also defended, I just wasn't willing to put that in yet depending on how long the argument became.

 

[Imari]

The point is that they will continue to ramp up micro-transactions until they have reached the absolute "breaking point". RE: Forza micro-transactions; FM4 was mild and bearable, FH raised eyebrows but didn't fundamentally change anything, and FM5 put things dangerously close to full-on "pay to enjoy". You just know that its going to be even worse in FM6.

I don't know anything of the sort.

I've already said that FM5 is borderline before this latest adjustment. The fact that they've backed it down some means that it's absolutely not a given that it will be worse in the next game. You're assuming that they're just pushing for max profit each time instead of trying to find a sweet spot between profit and public image.

I assume that T10 are not morons. They're trying to make money, but they make money already selling the game itself and I doubt they want to throw that away for the sake of milking a few whales.