Health Care for Everyone

  • Thread starter Danoff
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You might want to look at reforming malpractice insurance before your vision of competition-based health care is the reality. You would think a free market system is the most efficient, but don't tell that to the doctors who have to run a battery of tests at a patient's insistence, when statistically it is often unnecessary to run more than one when getting back results.

There is a huge disconnect between the monetary value of a health test or procedure and the patient's desire to explore all possible options, even when unnecessary. Doctors are basically forced to create inefficiencies in the health system because of the financially devastating results of being found guilty of medical malpractice.

People do not act rationally in regards to their health care. It is not a traditional market and you are oversimplifying the reality of health care waste in the U.S. right now.

Medical Malpractice is the tip of the iceberg in terms of creating inefficiency. But it is definitely an excellent place to look for reform that will cut costs. Doctors pay a ridiculous amount in malpractice insurance, and that cost gets passed on to customers. "Loser pays" would be a fantastic start.
 
Yes someone would come out with a budget system but I think the service it would provide would be awful, just like budget car insurance. You would think it's all good until you are hit with an unexpected bill the insurance didn't foot or didn't kick in what you were lead to believe.
Budget plans having budget coverage? What's next, cats and dogs living together? Anytime someone says they were led to believe they got something they didn't, but the paperwork is detailed, I blame them. It's like I am supposed to feel bad for people who got adjustable rate mortgages.

But what about the AFLAC example? They are a supplemental plan that does what nearly no others do. When you make it possible to shop plans you open up doors to more competition in both service and price.

My old car insurance company was famous for nicking me with charges that we some wild interpretation of my documents. I fought it and won most of the time but the headache of going through it was awful. It's bad with a car, but I think it would be even worse with your own health.
Sounds like you had a bad insurance company. Always, always, always use a local agent, especially if it is someone whom you may know personally. My auto/home/life agent's daughter is in dance class with my daughter, we ran into them at the zoo two weeks ago, and when he found out I was unemployed asked me to send him a resume because he was thinking of expanding.

I wonder if under more accessible regulations I could do the same with health insurance.

Plus I don't believe the health of our population should be reliant on whether or not you can afford insurance.
I don't believe my health should be reliant on your success.


I don't see it cutting into R&D at all, the only thing I see is the company making slightly less profits. By limiting the cost of drugs the company would have to invest more of its profits into it's own company rather then lining the pockets of CEO's.
Make up your mind. Are they greedy, and not caring about the public, or not? The way you describe these companies I can't believe you think your above description would be the outcome.

I do disagree. I think having socialized medicine is the right thing for the common good. I'd rather invest my tax dollars into the health and well being of the US over a useless war in a third world nation.
I'd rather we recognize the rights of individuals and the limits of our government, as set forth in our founding documents. That would include personal responsibility and not having undeclared wars in third world nations.

You are still relying on others for your care though, without people paying into the insurance company there wouldn't be any money for your care. You will be using more insurance money for you major heart procedures and follow up care than the guy who's paid in for years and have only ever had a cold.
People who chose to enter into such an agreement. Voluntary vs involuntary. Willing vs unwilling. Free choice vs forced. And over the last 18 years of my health being stable I was paying for those who were unstable and had things like cancer. It is a voluntary give and take. You want to talk about what is best about society? I choose to enter into a group agreement where I know I am paying to help those who are sick when I am healthy and vice versa. I am not forced to do it by anyone. I am free to leave the agreement if it is not in my best interest.

I've stated why I think a socialized medicine system would be good for the US and I don't see it as being a burden to society. i believe we have a social responsibility to care for our fellow citizens.
Have you gone out and met the responsibility that you believe you have? Or have you primarily just asked for the force of government to make everyone act in the way you think they, and you, should?

And as it is, I already pay money out of my cheque to go towards my insurance, it wouldn't really make any difference to me if that money was going to the employers health plan or the national health plan.
I don't know about you but I have a choice in my employer-provided plans. My wife and I spent the last week calculating the full out of pocket expenses of each of the four plans being offered. In the end we chose a plan that would only cost us 14% of our total family income, assuming I have my transplant this year. If I remain stable it will be far less. If I get a job with the state as well the cost will be significantly less (just under 10%), and individual plans would cost barely above 5% of the income of someone making what my wife does. Can any socialized system cover everyone for that small amount of their income taken in taxes?

If not, why not? The private industry can, and they are hindered by regulations that force them to have entire departments for working with out of state claims and so forth. Imagine what would happen if those staffs weren't necessary.
 
Most of these arguments are for physical stuff. What about the mental side. If you technically fine, but have a mental issue like bi polar or something and have no insurance it's basically too bad for you. Mental issues are even worse because it's usually costly pills and therapy/check ups forever. If you do not have insurance it's gonna cost you everything and some to get the help you need. Once they see you have no insurance there just gonna recommend the worst people who won't help anyway.
 
Can any socialized system cover everyone for that small amount of their income taken in taxes?

If not, why not? The private industry can...

The private industry doesn't cover everyone. The government spends billions on uninsured and under insured citizens and non-citizens.
 
The private industry doesn't cover everyone. The government spends billions on uninsured and under insured citizens and non-citizens.
Perhaps the private industry doesn't cover the now-uninsured and under-insured citizens because it is impossible to compete with the government's system, which charges no taxes to those very same people because they obviously have too small of incomes, but instead gathers its resources from a hundred million or more taxpayers in the country, and beyond that, whose operation does not depend on the profitability of the government because they can simply print more money to pay for it?

Of course not, that makes way too much sense.
 
The private health industry covers all of the people in the private health industry - 100% of its subscribers. Thus if 100% of its subscribers is all people, it would cover all people.
 
It is a fact 5% of a person's $12,000 income will not cover them for a year. Much less their dependents also.
 
It is a fact 5% of a person's $12,000 income will not cover them for a year. Much less their dependents also.

First of all, $12k is below minimum wage. So you might as well say $0 income.

Secondly, 5% of a person's $12k income will not cover their share of government healthcare either.

Thirdly, the point is that private insurance can cover everyone (who works), and for less of their income than government can.
 
Fourthly, if their healthcare expenses for that year are $0, any sum would cover them. Even $0.
 
First of all, $12k is below minimum wage. So you might as well say $0 income.
5% of 12,000 is a lot more than 5% of 0.

Secondly, 5% of a person's $12k income will not cover their share of government healthcare either.
But that is completely irrelevant.

Thirdly, the point is that private insurance can cover everyone (who works), and for less of their income than government can.
That is not true... for most of the population. Besides, that is not the point. FK said private insurance covers subscribers for 5% of their income, but that is because private insurance selects their customers, meaning customers with money and few diseases. So that drastically skews the numbers.

Fourthly, if their healthcare expenses for that year are $0, any sum would cover them. Even $0.
What does health care expenses have to do with health insurance cost? Absolutely nothing.
 
What does health care expenses have to do with health insurance cost? Absolutely nothing.

:lol:

It does neatly blow your "it is a fact" away though. If someone pays anywhere from nothing up to 5% of $12,000 (that'll be $600 then) towards health insurance and their annual bill for healthcar is anywhere from nothing to $600, what they pay covers them for a year. It is not a fact that 5% of $12k will not cover someone for a year.


Wow.... you certainly found the most succinct way of summing up the problem in this thread.

I'll say.
 
:lol:

It does neatly blow your "it is a fact" away though. If someone pays anywhere from nothing up to 5% of $12,000 (that'll be $600 then) towards health insurance and their annual bill for healthcar is anywhere from nothing to $600, what they pay covers them for a year. It is not a fact that 5% of $12k will not cover someone for a year.
What are you talking about?! The discussion was about the percentage of income affording health insurance and all you are talking about is how much someone's bills cost... which is utterly irrelevant. It has no purpose in this discussion.
Wow.... you certainly found the most succinct way of summing up the problem in this thread.
I noticed you ignored the part of my post directed at you, and how you don't get that a lot of people's income is not high enough to pay for their private health insurance coverage, not their actual bills:dunce:, at such a low percentage of income.
Can any socialized system cover everyone for that small amount (5%) of their income taken in taxes?
For the hard of comprehending, private insurance can not provide health insurance for everyone at 5% of their income.
 
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What are you talking about?!

Dapper
It is a fact 5% of a person's $12,000 income will not cover them for a year.

It is not a fact if they do not require more than $600 value in healthcare treatment.

It has no purpose in this discussion.

The premium charged for healthcare provision - public or private - is directly linked to the cost of healthcare provision.

I thought Danoff's point on this was quite subtle.


For the hard of comprehending, private insurance can not provide health insurance for everyone at 5% of their income.

The private healthcare industry provides health insurance for 100% of its (opt-in) subscribers. It achieves this now.
 
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For the hard of comprehending, private insurance can not provide health insurance for everyone at 5% of their income.

Woah there cowboy! No need for personal attacks. We can have a civil discussion about this can we not?

Public health insurance cannot keep everyone's share below 5% of their income either. What's your point? It certainly was not FK's point that everyone can pay private insurance with less than 5% of their (potentially zero) income.
 
It is not a fact if they do not require more than $600 value in healthcare treatment.
You are grasping at straws. You have nothing to say about 5% of income paying for health insurance... for everyone.

Public health insurance cannot keep everyone's share below 5% of their income either. What's your point? It certainly was not FK's point that everyone can pay private insurance with less than 5% of their (potentially zero) income.
Lets get this straight. A person says health insurance cost 5% of income through private insurance and then proceeds to ask if public insurance can go that low. I simply pointed out private insurance coverage doesn't cost that percent for everyone, it is a fact. No health insurance will cover everyone for 5% of everyone's income.
It certainly was not FK's point that everyone can pay private insurance with less than 5% of their (potentially zero) income
...individual plans would cost barely above 5% of the income of someone making what my wife does. Can any socialized system cover everyone for that small amount of their income taken in taxes?

If not, why not? The private industry can...
 
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Nobody said that.
I'll point it out to you, again.
...individual plans would cost barely above 5% of the income of someone making what my wife does. Can any socialized system cover everyone for that small amount of their income taken in taxes?

If not, why not? The private industry can, and they are hindered by regulations that force them to have entire departments for working with out of state claims and so forth. Imagine what would happen if those staffs weren't necessary.

Ok, you see the bolded parts? It is first a question, can public insurance go to around 5% of income for everyone to be covered, then there is an answer, private insurance can.

I am aware he used his wife's income, but he said, it is there in highlighted text, "cover everyone", then he says, again highlighted in the text, "the private industry can".

Maybe it is a typo, but you shouldn't say he didn't say it.
 
Ok, you see the bolded parts? It is first a question, can public insurance go to around 5% of income for everyone to be covered, then there is an answer, private insurance can.

I am aware he used his wife's income, but he said, it is there in highlighted text, "cover everyone", then he says, again highlighted in the text, "the private industry can".

Maybe it is a typo, but you shouldn't say he didn't say it.

He's talking about himself, and his own personal situation. I see how you're interpreting it, but it's not what he's trying to say (and not how I interpreted it when I read it). I hate to keep putting words in his mouth, and he can certainly correct me if I'm wrong. Here's how I interpret his statement.

"...individual plans would cost barely above 5% of the income of someone making what my wife does. Can any socialized system cover everyone for that small [dollar, not percentage] amount of their income taken in taxes? "

Now, getting back to the topic.

The bottom line is that public health care is not at all affordable for each individual. The whole point of making it public is to get some people to foot the (unaffordable) bill so that others don't have to. For someone making a reasonable amount of money, their share of health care costs are currently relatively small compared to their income. That number goes way up under a public plan, despite the shell game over who has to foot the bill.
 
He's talking about himself, and his own personal situation. I see how you're interpreting it, but it's not what he's trying to say (and not how I interpreted it when I read it). I hate to keep putting words in his mouth, and he can certainly correct me if I'm wrong. Here's how I interpret his statement.

"...individual plans would cost barely above 5% of the income of someone making what my wife does. Can any socialized system cover everyone for that small [dollar, not percentage] amount of their income taken in taxes? "

Now, getting back to the topic.

The bottom line is that public health care is not at all affordable for each individual. The whole point of making it public is to get some people to foot the (unaffordable) bill so that others don't have to. For someone making a reasonable amount of money, their share of health care costs are currently relatively small compared to their income. That number goes way up under a public plan, despite the shell game over who has to foot the bill.

I see. :D The only amount (in FK's example) that was quantifiable was a percent. Referring to an amount that I don't know, unless I missed his wife's income, is not the best way to sell an idea based on the undisclosed amount. So without knowing a general dollar amount it is impossible to say if most people could afford that amount, or be sufficiently covered by that amount.

And public insurance will always cost a little bit more because it absorbs the cost of the people who aren't paying in that need health care.
 
And public insurance will always cost a little bit more because it absorbs the cost of the people who aren't paying in that need health care.

Oh come now. That's not the real reason is costs a "little bit" more. It costs a TON more for the purely economical reason that any time you divorce the consumer from any incentive to conserve, they over consume.

Imagine if your grocery store announced that all food (a basic necessity of life) was "free". I want you to picture empty shelves, hoarding, and rationing. Now imagine the bill if that "free" food came at the expense of the taxpayer. Healthcare is no different. It is a service that is always over used when the consumer doesn't bear the cost. This is basically true of all socialized anything.

Here in the US, we've managed to shoehorn ourselves into a private pseudo-version of that (with some help from the government of course). This is fixable in a way that doesn't attempt to deny economics the way public healthcare does.
 
Oh come now. That's not the real reason is costs a "little bit" more. It costs a TON more for the purely economical reason that any time you divorce the consumer from any incentive to conserve, they over consume.

Imagine if your grocery store announced that all food (a basic necessity of life) was "free". I want you to picture empty shelves, hoarding, and rationing. Now imagine the bill if that "free" food came at the expense of the taxpayer. Healthcare is no different. It is a service that is always over used when the consumer doesn't bear the cost. This is basically true of all socialized anything.

The difference is everyone eats food so everyone could abuse food, and hypochondriacs only consist of ~5% of Americans, the rest of Americans rather not go to the doctors. Unless people purposefully harm themselves enough to seek medical care, or have a mental condition that makes them think they need help (which is a disorder on it's own and a physician should notice the behavior cycle and refer them to a psychologist), your analogy holds no water.
 
The difference is everyone eats food so everyone could abuse food, and hypochondriacs only consist of ~5% of Americans, the rest of Americans rather not go to the doctors. Unless people purposefully harm themselves enough to seek medical care, or have a mental condition that makes them think they need help (which is a disorder on it's own and a physician should notice the behavior cycle and refer them to a psychologist), your analogy holds no water.

I like how you conclude that "my analogy holds no water" from that.

Right now, there are a ton of things I could go to the doctor for. I have flat feet, and I could use some custom fitted orthotics. They're insanely expensive, and the $30 ones that I use from sport chalet work really well. But I could use an extra pair, and if it were free, you'd bet I'd be down there getting my custom-fit ridiculously expensive orthotics. Also, I'm overdue for my annual checkup for... well you don't need a reason to get an annual checkup right? Also, I grind my teeth at night. The dentist has told me that that little headache I have in the morning comes from that. I'd get a custom mouth guard but it costs a lot of money. It's not bothering me that much, but if it were free, I'd already have one (I was willing to pay it when I thought it was just $100, but it turns out it's many times that). I could pay a dermatologist a visit too...

There are a number of really really longshot blood tests that I'd probably get done for infertility diagnosis. They don't really affect anything and aren't curable, but I'd like to have a diagnosis. If they didn't cost $1000 each, I'd get them done. My wife and I would have to rethink our decision to stop trying IVF if it were totally free. Those cost ~$15k per try, so it's not something to consider lightly. Free, though, is another story.

My wife could probably use another set of prescription glasses. Her current prescription glasses don't look as nice as some of her other glasses... that's it. Not that her prescription is out or anything, just that she has other glasses that look nicer. She would probably buy a more expensive brand of contacts too - not that her current contacts bother her, but why not go with the best right? Also we bought cheap contact cleaning solution, I assume the better stuff would be available for free right?

Actually my wife went home today not feeling all that great. We're not sure if she's coming down with a cold, or if it's just allergies or what, but she could swing by the doctor and get checked out if it were free. She just visited a the doctor today actually and told me she came home with a "free sample" of something she wants to try. Why get the free sample when you can get the full bottle? If she doesn't like it, we could just throw it away. It's not like it cost anything.

...then there's vitamins...

Now, we're generally healthy (aside from the fertility stuff), young, and have no kids. If I can put together a list like that for us... just imagine what someone 10 years older with 3 kids could do. You have no idea how wasteful people can be.

I just rattled off about $20k worth of stuff I'd get if it were free that I'm not going to do because it's not. None of that includes stabbing myself and I'm not a hypochondriac. Also, none of it is necessary and most of it would probably be a waste.
 
I just rattled off about $20k worth of stuff I'd get if it were free that I'm not going to do because it's not.

A bunch of stuff your current private insurance won't cover (shocking).
Of course Obamacare lets you keep your private insurance that currently doesn't adequately take of you.
 
A bunch of stuff your current private insurance won't cover, just like public insurance won't.
Of course Obamacare lets you keep your private insurance that currently doesn't adequately take of you.

Actually most of it is covered by private insurance - to a degree. All of it we get tax advantages on CURRENTLY from the government (ok, not the contact lens cleaner). Are you telling me none of that is ever going to be covered by public health care? You are aware the government programs grow right?

I want my $500 orthotics...
 
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