Heartfelt congratulations to Jammy for winning ITCC 3!

[ITCC_Andrew]

The only difference is that I'm stipulating further, that all four wheels should remain on what I deem to be the "racing surface;" the red/white curbs are a racing surface. The grey parts of the curbs are an allowable accident, and can't be repeated several times (seemingly intentionally.) The green astroturf doesn't count, in any way, as racing surface. It is, in real-life, much less grippy than it is in GT5.


Everything in ITCC is made to be of some resemblance to real-life motorsports. The conduct requirements and rules are the same.

We ran this is Pure after we got bored of the OLR all 4 wheels off, we used the white lines as track limits and it was pretty darn clear for all, don't see how doing your silly new system will do any difference..

This isn't PURE though. Sorry, I never was a fan of the way they ran their series; too many formalities. For the drivers of ITCC, it's simple to show up with the car, with some general understanding of the rules, and race. Everything else, is something I take care of behind the scenes.

 

[paulmac2k9]

Everything in ITCC is made to be of some resemblance to real-life motorsports. The conduct requirements and rules are the same.

Real life eh?

Also concidering we had more lenient rules in Pure to what your doing here.. That's laughable.. (We allowed more use of the track to a realistic sence)

One more thing, on my ARDS MSA racing licence test I was allowed more use of the kerbs than you are here.. I even got told to use them more!

 

[nascarfan1400]

Mel... why are you not a racing forum mod?
--
Paul, the first shot is not Monza with the car having tires on track.
Second one is V8 Supercars (I think) not at Monza
The curb rule is specificly for Monza as Mel stated.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Paul, WTCC is not ITCC. PURE is not ITCC.


Sure, this series is loosely based off of WTCC. It's also based off of STCC, and CTCC...And even ATCC.


What I don't get, is why the big fuss about what my series chooses to run? The series regulars don't mind the rules, so why do you? You're not even participating.


I don't understand, really, why you mention it as if it's some crime to do exactly what the OLRs tell me to do. Why? I'm specifying - very clearly - what everyone is allowed to do, not supposed to do, and absolutely not allowed to do.


The only grey area is the grey area; don't do it more than, let's say, three times.


Done, you've now got every single driver on the same page, in terms of racing line, racing etiquette, and sportsmanship. I, therefore, believe that this week's races will be a triumphant return of full-weather (up to 60% moisture on track) ITCC races, with a triumphant debut at Monza. I see nothing wrong with setting guidelines to be followed in the hopes that they are followed, for the success of ITCC's debut race at Monza. As I clarified the off-track rules, there shouldn't be anymore of this:


"Fun-runs testing at Monza creates confusion over track limits"

Mel... why are you not a racing forum mod?
--
Paul, the first shot is not Monza with the car having tires on track.
Second one is V8 Supercars not at Monza
The curb rule is specificly for Monza as Mel stated.

Nope. They're both Monza in WTCC.

 

[SpeedyishOlly]

I personally think we should be able to use as much surface as we can as long as two wheels are inside/on the white line, it's just more simple, and we have more room to improve lap times. Plus that's just how it is in real life, if it ain't broke don't fix it (or break it).

Not that I really care.

 

[paulmac2k9]

I personally think we should be able to use as much surface as we can as long as two wheels are inside/on the white line, it's just simpler, and we have more room to improve lap times. Plus that's just how it is in real life, if it ain't broke don't fix it (or break it).

Hooray! Someone gets what I am trying to say!

And Nascar I know my damn touring cars, never question that. (BMW V8 Supercar, sorry made me laugh.)

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I personally think we should be able to use as much surface as we can as long as two wheels are inside/on the white line, it's just simpler, and we have more room to improve lap times. Plus that's just how it is in real life, if it ain't broke don't fix it (or break it).

Thanks Paul!


You gave me a photo of proof that this system mentioned here doesn't work. If two wheels need to be on the side of the white line... 💡 This BMW is off-course and could be assessed a penalty.

 

[SpeedyishOlly]

You gave me a photo of proof that this system mentioned here doesn't work. If two wheels need to be on the side of the white line... 💡 This BMW is off-course and could be assessed a penalty.

I meant if the right side wheels (in this image) are inside the white line, but oh well.

 

[paulmac2k9]

At the time of the picture he is just on track but he is going onto fully the kerbs which is off track. But as we know real life touring car series are very soft on track limits for the most part. Also STCC is worse, ask Turkington.. (Knockhill they cut like mad and he said when he raced STCC back in 2010 they drove every track like that.)

It's simply, simpler to go with a tried and tested formula, that works everywhere else... But no you have to do something different because everyone else is wrong.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

At the time of the picture he is just on track but he is going onto fully the kerbs which is off track. But as we know real life touring car series are very soft on track limits for the most part.

So... You've come to tell me, that my specifying is a problem, because it's even more specific and strict than real life? That it's going to make the racing more fair, so that no one can cut corners like that BMW is?


Thanks for the compliments, Paul.

 

[paulmac2k9]

because it's even more specific and strict than real life?

Yeah so real life isn't good enough for you, thus proving my point..

You always try twisting stuff to make you "win" in some way. Here I thought you were smarter than before.

It's no coincidence your attitude is once again pushing you out of other series..

I realise I am being a little harsh here but I don't mince my words, as many people who know me, know.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Yeah so real life isn't good enough for you, thus proving my point..

Don't make this so personal. I'm not going after you personally.


I feel like a fully and fairly publicized system that makes everyone fully aware of what's expected of them is acceptable.


And why wouldn't it be acceptable?


We could certainly ask a Race admin, for clarification, on whether I'm allowed to, or not, but should we waste their time?

 

[nascarfan1400]

I dont feel Mel is wrong. His series, his rules...

I'm Okay either way... BMW V8 Supercar... I feel stupid

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I'm Okay either way... BMW V8 Supercar... I feel stupid

Well, the thing is, however this discussion is worked out, I feel like I need to inform you (all drivers) of the final word, and where we're allowed to drive. Once everything is settled, I'll finalize it, since - apparently - it's up for discussion.


No matter what the outcome, everyone will use the same track limits as track limits. There will be no interpretation and no disagreements.

 

[Com Fox]

Not going to be happy with rain .

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Not going to be happy with rain .

Not everyone will be, I know. Some have cars that do best in the dry, some have cars that do best for wet. That's tuning setup and driver preference.


I find that slow and steady is waaaay faster in the rain, by the way.

 

[paulmac2k9]

No, by all means do what you want.

I am just pointing out how ridiculous I think your "system" is when there is a perfectly clear worldwide system that works and is much, much simpler.

Of all the races I have managed to do on GTP I would be p'ed off if I got a penalty for what the pink Focus "did".

The whole point of touring cars is attacking the race track etc. GT racing would be more inclined to do the amount of kerb use you want people to use here. And that's purely down to the kerbs unsettling the GT cars too much for it to be faster.

To me your over complicating a simple thing, dirty drivers will disobey rules weather they are OLR, (All 4 wheels on kerbs) white lines as track limits or your way, waay off kerbs idea..

The only difference is your one is so strict and imo over complicated that people just trying to run fast laps will go past your "boundaries" by the laws of physics. It makes it pretty pointless to really attack the track.

For people like me that's like saying, you can drive this race car but you cannot drive it fast. Why bother.

I have displayed my thoughts as best I can, do with them what you wish.

 

[nascarfan1400]

I have my team, schedule, and stategies all figured out... STILL no idea what car to use

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

That's fine, but I definitely need to do something.


Again, look through the testing photos from Sunday (?) and then tell me action doesn't need to be taken...

 

[paulmac2k9]

Even you did it.. Also I found a pretty good one.. Of you, doing exactly what I have been saying!

A little further over the right and that's golden for white lines as track.. The Focus was literally a few inches further right than this, in others it's dirty yeah but one is an oversteer moment, red Mazda.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Exactly. This was before I made the rules. Everyone had their own interpretation of what was and was not cutting.


So, I standardized it. I feel that's fair for everyone. Everyone knows the track boundaries so everyone can stay within them. Anyone who doesn't, does so knowingly and does so at the risk* of a penalty.


* there are several reasons why a corner can be cut without penalty, including to avoid another car/driver, or simply by accident (to a point.)


Edit:

I feel justified in making a big point of the track limits.

 

[paulmac2k9]

Why make it more difficult to run laps, when the above picture is a perfect example of the track limits..

 

[polarbear345]

Why make it more difficult to run laps, when the above picture is a perfect example of the track limits..

There we go...

I'm skipping Monza for sure, this is stupidly specific.

And lololololol at the guy saying Paul's pictures were wrong!

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Why make it more difficult to run laps, when the above picture is a perfect example of the track limits..

...Because I believe that ITCC would benefit from a more clear, concise, descriptive version of what I consider to be fair.


As I'm saying, it has no real bearing on the racing itself, it just makes sure that everyone can evenly understand the rules and guidelines set forth, so that there is no confusion and everyone can tell if they should receive a penalty or not, simply by reviewing the replay.


All doubt is removed, all clarification given, all fair policies adhered to.


What I'm saying, is that it doesn't mean that Driver A will be any faster or any slower. It means that Driver A and Driver B will be allowed to use the same system, with no questions necessary. Everyone knows what they're doing, and everyone sets forth knowing that they're using the full-limit of the track, without exceeding it, because the rules are so clear-cut.

 

[polarbear345]

This must be a joke.


How would giving 5 second penalties for people running real life lines (where I get the majority of mine from) not effect the racing? Well ok, it may not effect the racing, but it would effect the finishing order.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

This must be a joke.


How would giving 5 second penalties for people running real life lines (where I get the majority of mine from) not effect the racing? Well ok, it may not effect the racing, but it would effect the finishing order.

How would it affect the finishing order? Either everyone runs rampant and cuts the course, or we set specific guidelines now and be proactive to ensure that the races are fair.


How is it unfair?

 

[polarbear345]

How would it affect the finishing order? Either everyone runs rampant and cuts the course, or we set specific guidelines now and be proactive to ensure that the races are fair.

How is it unfair?

If someone does what the second BMW was doing and then gets 10 seconds in penalties... Chances are he isn't going to finish where he/she should

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

If someone does what the second BMW was doing and then gets 10 seconds in penalties... Chances are he isn't going to finish where he/she should

That's if it happens, accidentally, twice, or intentionally, numerous times.


And where are you getting 10 seconds from?


Each time after the allotted accidental off-track is 5 seconds. That's only if the driver gains an advantage (i.e., fastest lap, makes a pass, closes gap and re-enters the draft and makes a pass, or defends their position) and uses the track limits to their advantage.


I've been over this.


So, Driver A goes off-track and "cuts a corner" once. Ooops, they're not allowed to leave the track and "cut a corner" again for that race. The race is 4 laps long. The driver then cuts the chicane again, gives up the time gained, no penalty. Then the same driver cuts a third time, passes Driver B. How does Driver B feel? Driver B feels irked. Driver A receives a 5 second penalty. Driver B's rightful position is restored. All of the positions Driver A loses are Driver A's fault.


I mean, I know you're not exactly strict about corner-cutting, polar, but I am.

 

[paulmac2k9]

My first BTCC weekend that I went to, watch those marker posts fly .

Just saying this is what I grew up watching. Proper crazy touring car action, how it should be but still professional at the same time.

(This has little relevance but watch if you are a true touring car fan)

 

[polarbear345]

I mean, I know you're not exactly strict about corner-cutting, polar, but I am.

Thought you didn't want this to be personal?

I mean, if you want to have at it, I'm game. Just don't back out this time.