Heartfelt congratulations to Jammy for winning ITCC 3!

[ITCC_Andrew]

I'm stating a fact. You didn't check to see if anyone was corner-cutting at Monza in Rolex.


I'm making everything clear. ITCC is fair. I could hop in a Honda, and win with it (I'm actually about 0.1 seconds faster.) Same with BMW, if I set up a tune for it. Same with SEAT (again, a little bit faster.) And, again, with Ford. I like the Ford, too. All of the corner cutting definitions are given.


It's entirely fair. Sure, it's not crazy, but I don't appreciate it when professional drivers cut courses, nor do I appreciate it when GT5 drivers cut the courses.


ITCC is interesting because the cars are nose-to-tail-to-nose-to-tail ad mortem by suffocation.

 

[polarbear345]

Still think Paul is correct. You haven't put your words in easy English. I've read as much as I can and don't understand

Assuming Paul is going by the pure pictures he lent to me a couple times

 

[nascarfan1400]

I understand. There are limits: 2 tires on curb, 2 on track is the standard protocal.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Still think Paul is correct. You haven't put your words in easy English. I've read as much as I can and don't understand

Assuming Paul is going by the pure pictures he lent to me a couple times

This. Everyone's allowed to use that much track (the same as I use in that video) freely, as much as they want.

This will not result in a penalty, since sparky's taking action to avoid hitting me. 👍 sparky, for the level-headedness.

"Okay, slight mistake, if it happens again, he'll get a penalty."

oh no! 5 seconds

10 seconds

15 seconds, and so forth.



That seems perfectly fair by me, my standards, and, so far as I can tell, the OLRs.

 

[adam46]

Come on guys... It's literally just a game. If, over the course of the season, the racing is diluted or there are sufficient complaints from regulars, I imagine Andrew would amend the rules again.
At the end of the day though, this doesn't need to be 100% accurate to real life Touring Cars. I agree with everyone here to an extent, the YouTube link is an example of great racing, but at the same time I adore enduros where they need to stay off the kerbs. What I guess this series is, is how Andrew would run a touring car championship if he could.
You don't have to agree with it, but it's his series. You have the option to compete and comply with the regs, or to just not compete. I understand some of you have already decided not to, and that's fine... But does it really have to become this huge debate?

If you disagree that strongly create your own series and create the vision of how you would run a touring car series. Everyone has different ideas on all matters in life, it's just how it is.
You guys have expressed your opinion/offered your advice to Andrew but he's decided on these rules for the time being. Maybe things won't be good on Friday, and then there will be a case, some proof, that these rules aren't going to work.

Let's just leave it at that, and those who want to can show up at Monza and race to these rules and see how things pan out.

 

[polarbear345]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugLlrCtOAHI">YouTube Link</a>

This. Everyone's allowed to use that much track (the same as I use in that video) freely, as much as they want.

This will not result in a penalty, since sparky's taking action to avoid hitting me. 👍 sparky, for the level-headedness.

"Okay, slight mistake, if it happens again, he'll get a penalty."

oh no! 5 seconds

10 seconds

15 seconds, and so forth.

That seems perfectly fair by me, my standards, and, so far as I can tell, the OLRs.

There we go.

And that pinkish Mazda should get the boot... He wasn't even close....

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

There we go.

And that pinkish Mazda should get the boot... He wasn't even close....

...on Racing intermediates on a fully-wet track, if I remember correctly.


Oh, and he's already mentioned making a full and concerted effort to avoid corner-cutting.

 

[polarbear345]

Come on guys... It's literally just a game. If, over the course of the season, the racing is diluted or there are sufficient complaints from regulars, I imagine Andrew would amend the rules again.
At the end of the day though, this doesn't need to be 100% accurate to real life Touring Cars. I agree with everyone here to an extent, the YouTube link is an example of great racing, but at the same time I adore enduros where they need to stay off the kerbs. What I guess this series is, is how Andrew would run a touring car championship if he could.
You don't have to agree with it, but it's his series. You have the option to compete and comply with the regs, or to just not compete. I understand some of you have already decided not to, and that's fine... But does it really have to become this huge debate?

If you disagree that strongly create your own series and create the vision of how you would run a touring car series. Everyone has different ideas on all matters in life, it's just how it is.
You guys have expressed your opinion/offered your advice to Andrew but he's decided on these rules for the time being. Maybe things won't be good on Friday, and then there will be a case, some proof, that these rules aren't going to work.

Let's just leave it at that, and those who want to can show up at Monza and race to these rules and see how things pan out.

You're new here. You missed out on season 1 and 2. I helped organize those (whether Mel admits it or not is a different story)

What he's doing now is scaring people into being careful, and he'll loosen up come the race. The debate is the fun part. If everyone agrees it's no fun. We'll end up doing two wheels on the green at the final triple Chicane (forget the name, it's late...) and all will be well.

Until someone cries foul and ruins it for everyone.

 

[paulmac2k9]

So since you rattled off penalties, this is a 5 second penatly right?

 

[adam46]

You're new here. You missed out on season 1 and 2. I helped organize those (whether Mel admits it or not is a different story)

What he's doing now is scaring people into being careful, and he'll loosen up come the race. The debate is the fun part. If everyone agrees it's no fun. We'll end up doing two wheels on the green at the final triple Chicane (forget the name, it's late...) and all will be well.

Until someone cries foul and ruins it for everyone.

You're referring to the Ascari Chicane... I think. 3:48AM here, so I'm in the same boat.
Well fair enough to all you said, as long as I get some decent racing on Friday night I'm happy! Until then, I'm sleeping a little bit for once.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

You're new here. You missed out on season 1 and 2. I helped organize those (whether Mel admits it or not is a different story)

You did help, especially with Season 1. Season 2 was a disaster because I was too grumpy, busy, and tired of hearing people complaining and arguing on the thread - wait a second.

What he's doing now is scaring people into being careful, and he'll loosen up come the race. The debate is the fun part. If everyone agrees it's no fun. We'll end up doing two wheels on the green at the final triple Chicane (forget the name, it's late...) and all will be well.

Hmmm? Scaring people? My intention isn't to be scary. And two wheels on the green at Variante Ascari is fine, on a cumulative scale. Consider the number of times that means that half of a car is going over; once. Not that bad.

Also, keep in mind that the qualifying races are only 4 laps long. You have to cut the corners twice in order to receive a penalty. Hmmm, seems like that would be difficult to do.

Until someone cries foul and ruins it for everyone.

If season 2 was anything to go by, those who are causing this argument today would be the ones who would cry foul. Or me, but that's because it's my job.

So since you rattled off penalties, this is a 5 second penatly right?

That's once.

Edit:

And I get a 5 second penalty. That's fair. I'll avoid doing that on Friday. 👍


Edit:


And, with that unsuccessful conclusion of events, I leave this with the superior judgement of GTP's Race Admin team. Thank you and goodnight.

 

[GTP IWIN]

Hi Andrew

I may be up for some racing in your series if that alright but my car choice i'm not sure yet I will need to do some testing but id like to at least get my name down.

 

[Bopop4]

*Reads through a few pages of bitching and whining about track limits.*

Is anyone going to livestream this? I kinda want to watch it now...

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Hi Andrew

I may be up for some racing in your series if that alright but my car choice i'm not sure yet I will need to do some testing but id like to at least get my name down.

Hi! Sure, that's okay. Once this friendly discussion* calms down, things will be back to normal.

*Reads through a few pages of bitching and whining about track limits.*

Is anyone going to livestream this? I kinda want to watch it now...

Youtube. Also, *this was not whining, this was a discussion.

I sort of agree with Paul and polar, to a point, but the OLRs give the series director (hey, that's me) the choice of what sort of curb usage is acceptable and isn't. I'd like to see if my way works any better.

 

[paulmac2k9]

I sort of agree with Paul and polar, to a point, but the OLRs give the series director (hey, that's me) the choice of what sort of curb usage is acceptable and isn't. I'd like to see if my way works any better.

I didn't question you could do what you want, if you read closely, I just portrayed my views on the subject.

 

[Bopop4]

When is the actual race?

'Cause it would be really cool to see a livestream, complete with audio.

My 2 cents, we used to run normal rules, which was " You should keep two wheels on the track all the time (rumble strips are part of the track)."
The green stuff isn't part of the track, but if you can keep it on the kerbs, then it should be fine.

And considering that you did a half season in the karts, you should know how far the quick guys cut the kerbs. Jake is over the grass here in T7.

Example, this lap I did was clean, it was VERY close, but clean.
Link

 

[Com Fox]

, I usually prefer the rule of two wheels on the Green thing are allowed at most.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I'm not arguing that.

My point is simple; I'd like to try it for one race, just like Adam said, to see if it works, specifically for Monza. Normally, whether a car is on a curb or not, in ITCC makes next to no difference, and is a lot to do with the driver's chosen line. That's fine.


But, there's a disparity here, in who's willing to push the definition, and who actually reads and agrees with the definition. I'm just trying to leave absolutely no grey area. "This is what you do, this is what you avoid. There is no middle ground, there is no faster than fastest through short-cutting. It's just the car, the driver, and the draft from all of the other cars."


ITCC isn't WTCC, really. GT5 messed up the aero drag and drafting makes some absurdly huge difference. So, it's 276 hp NASCAR on highly interesting road courses. There, I've said it; the draft defines what ITCC is. No one should need to cut the corners, because the draft is strong enough to allow passes to happen anyways.

So, I expect decent behaviour here. In testing, even in the middle of 100% track moisture, we were perfectly capable of controlling the cars well enough to avoid hitting each other. We can also avoid the curbs. It's just a matter of trying. If you make an honest effort to avoid going over the curbs and corner-cutting, I can see in the replays. The ones who don't want to cut corners don't cut the corners.


I don't think it's fair to punish the drivers who don't attack the corner, and go way over the curbs. I think it's fair to give them a fair shot at winning. That's what ITCC is about; honest, fair racing, where anyone could win.


Jammy almost won last week. I won last week. Sparky won last week. Adam won last week. Anyone can win. That's why I try to keep it fair. If we go to a track that Nascarfan1400 prefers, maybe he'll win. Maybe Siggers will win, (if he hasn't already...) Maybe OLLY will win again. Maybe Sakery will win again in this season like last season.


I'm trying to keep things as fair as possible because you guys are all my internet friends, and I don't mind losing a fair race. But, if everyone leaves thinking "so-and-so was cutting corners, and so-and-so dive-bombed me, and I'm really grumpy and that wasn't fun," then I'm not happy either.


I want to hear, on the thread, about how much fun it was. I think everyone thought Tokyo was fun (maybe not OLLY, sorry about the lag!!) And that's what I'm looking for this Friday; the same competitive, close, drawing strings for a race winner type racing. The sort of racing where it's not over until the final car crosses the finish line.


So, let's all just give it a fair shot, and deal with whatever happens afterwards.

And remember, it's meant to be a fun, challenging series with a fair, equal chance to win.

 

[Com Fox]

I guess everyone will win but me .

 

[Willfred_1]

I guess everyone will win but me .

i doubt i'll win i be the one with all the penalties

but it would have been nice if a steward was consulted about possible rules
please PM in future so we can avoid a a multiple page heated debate

 

[nascarfan1400]

Now that it is calm...
My team will be Red Bull Racing.
My Partial Schedule is back on like page fifty-something.

 

[Willfred_1]

i am currently uploading my cleanest lap after a two hour session
i personally feel after running at around 80 % dampness.
The system cannot be implemented for the following reasons
firstly
Grip
Cars tend to slide around more meaning, that it will take them on a different line. This will become more apparent in a draft; the traction then is further reduced meaning more cars will go over these limits.
The fwd will understeer meaning that in the chicanes going over boundaries regularly will be common .
The bmw on the over hand will not only have understeer but oversteer as well meaning that most laps would be classed as dirty when solo and even more so in a draft.

my second point is weather settings
The problem with having a track condition that changes with these rules is this.
If it stops raining the track will increase slightly in grip meaning that driver will have to adjust. This is not so much of a problem. But going from dry to wet will likely cause accidents. The reason for is
If it rains heavily the dampness will rise quickly meaning that by the end of the lap it could much higher. This means that know you have to guess where to brake. This situation can be made much worse by being in a draft. The chances of car contact are substantially increased.

Penualtys
The problem with this is the following

On the first lap light rain appears, i get round cleanly; it then turns to heavy rain dampness is now increased. I brake earlier than last time however my car now slide across the second chicane as i turn in if this happens several times. which it may well do. I am now being penalised on top of losing time this may mean that on the final chicane
Fr instance my car oversteers on the exit of the first left my rear wheels then pass the boundary
bang 5 sec penalty.
After correcting it, my line now takes over the second left.
I get a penalty
due to my car being unstable i then slide over the white boundary.

I've left the track 3 times on one chicane just because i messed up the braking transition on top that i've also lost time due going sideways

so the way i see is this we have two options

we run a dry race with new rules or a wet race with the basic rule of 2 tyres on the track at once

 

[Willfred_1]

here is the video to me it looks like a respectable lap however under the rules it would be a dirty lap

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Comment #1: How in the world did you sync four videos in to one screen? That's officially awesome!


Comment #2: sliding in the wet or the dry makes you slower in RWD. Just a tip, and it's something I've honestly seen a lot of.


Comment #3: So, you think that the other penalty system will work better?


Commence voting, which system would you prefer?


System 1: two wheels on track (as defined by white line,) all four wheels on a hard surface

System 2: all four wheels on track, (as defined by red/white curbs are track)

 

[adam46]

System One if I had to choose, but either is okay with me.

 

[Willfred_1]

Comment #1: How in the world did you sync four videos in to one screen? That's officially awesome!


Comment #2: sliding in the wet or the dry makes you slower in RWD. Just a tip, and it's something I've honestly seen a lot of.


Comment #3: So, you think that the other penalty system will work better?


Commence voting, which system would you prefer?


System 1: two wheels on track (as defined by white line,) all four wheels on a hard surface

System 2: all four wheels on track, (as defined by red/white curbs are track)

by eye in the editor however bottom left out of sync now you said about syncing

i tried to not slide but the car naturally did it in the wet.

i think as long as two wheels are on track its fine there fore i vote
vote for system one due to the weather change
as you liked that heres a project i never finished

 

[SpeedyishOlly]

System 1.

I'd probably be quite distracted by 2 as I'm so used to the white lines defining the track.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

vote for system one due to the weather change

as you liked that heres a project i never finished

Right, I'm announcing something else now: Season 4 will have a big collection of Season 3 highlights to start with, as a big intro/teaser/trailer/info video in the OP.


All of the current cars will remain in ITCC, unless replaced by newer models.
That means that the new Ford will replace the current Ford, but the Mazda, Honda, and various other cars will not be replaced unless there is a newer car to choose from. I'm happy with the current car list.

 

[Com Fox]

Good luck guys , I'll be sure to set my alarm clock for this race.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Good luck guys , I'll be sure to set my alarm clock for this race.

And your vote, monsieur?


Rhymes with coat,