Hks ct230r Set up posted

[MONSTAR-1]

Im currently working on tuning this car. Ive only came across 1 set up here (which i haven't tried) so thought id give it a shot. Understeer is my mine problem but am working on making it better. My aim is to have it set up for time attack and hopefully get it into the low 53s. Im pretty confident i can beat the real time of 53.5xx.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ_wUuB5Ky0
Filmed on my state of the art capture card. aka iphone

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Low front end LSD values & a high rear torque split may help with that understeer.

Good luck with the Tune.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Low front end LSD values & a high rear torque split may help with that understeer.

Good luck with the Tune.

Bzzzzzzzt, that just ruins its advantage.

I don't know the exact settings I used (PM Onboy123 for them) but I know I ran something similar on the CT230R as I did on the '10 Impreza... High LSD settings at both ends, less rear decel than front decel, 45/55 or 50/50 torque split, then suspension tuning to make it close to neutral under throttle (slight push) and a bit loose on entry. Result is a bloody quick psuedo-racecar.

It's better to maximize traction and deal with understeer than to sacrifice traction to get "oversteer" with an AWD car; that "oversteer" is not in any way advantageous (as the front still loses grip at the same point, just that now the rear goes away sooner) and slows the car down.

Now, mind you, max attack with my way of setting up AWDs will burn through front tires faster than one that is more conservative/slower also being driven at max attack... But if you back off a bit you can stretch the tires without being any slower than the guy going balls to the wall everywhere. Gives a nice "cushion" so to speak... It'll get you pole and let you hold it but also give a bit of "reserve speed" to make a push to pass if you do make a mistake.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

RK that's your opinion.

A good reference is the (real life) GTR R34 it basically runs 90% of it's power in the rear allowing the car to perform like a RWD car, except where the RWD gets F-Ed is when it's drive wheels slip and forward acceleration gets lost, the GTR sends power to the front to keep the forward acceleration. Otherwise you get the usual AWD that handles similar to FWD....

Higher front torque split and LSD values in the Evo would be better off road then the tarmac.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Actually the R34 runs 100% RWD until it detects slip

And systems like that are their own special cases. In said cases I leave them intact instead of installing the FC LSD/VCD... FC LSD if there's no AYC or similar and an open front differential does not suffice for the power output, in which case I still wind up running a rather maddeningly tight front diff for the corner exit advantage.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Actually the R34 runs 100% RWD until it detects slip

And systems like that are their own special cases. In said cases I leave them intact instead of installing the FC LSD/VCD... FC LSD if there's no AYC or similar and an open front differential does not suffice for the power output, in which case I still wind up running a rather maddeningly tight front diff for the corner exit advantage.

The R34 uses full time AWD 40/60 at launch, after it will drop go to 2/98 (oops I wasn't specific) essentially RWD until slip (like I said acts like RWD until it needs AWD) . This though does further prove my point how your idea of tuning AWD is funny when you say that the best road going AWD system shouldn't be used as an example.

Like I said, it's a great example of how AWD can be used to go around a track better, the Evo's more catered to off road AWD ( not that particular modified model, but the Evo's AWD system none he less), and so looking at how other high performing AWD systems designed for road performance work is good when bringing one system to the other side.

Nowhere have I said mirror the R34 system, but rather use it as an example.

 

[oppositelock]

that "oversteer" is not in any way advantageous (as the front still loses grip at the same point, just that now the rear goes away sooner) and slows the car down.

BZZZZZZZZZT yourself.

Anyone familiar with the concept of a friction circle knows that any time you apply an accelerative or decelerative force to a tire you reduce it's capacity for lateral grip. A front tire receiving a 50 percent split is physically incapable of turning as hard under WOT as a tire receiving a 10 percent split.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

BZZZZZZZZZT yourself.

Anyone familiar with the concept of a friction circle knows that any time you apply an accelerative or decelerative force to a tire you reduce it's capacity for lateral grip. A front tire receiving a 50 percent split is physically incapable of turning as hard under WOT as a tire receiving a 10 percent split.

This is true but it should not be receiving that 50 percent split until it doesn't need to dedicate all possible grip to cornering forces.

The R34 uses full time AWD 40/60 at launch, after it will drop go to 2/98 (oops I wasn't specific) essentially RWD until slip (like I said acts like RWD until it needs AWD) . This though does further prove my point how your idea of tuning AWD is funny when you say that the best road going AWD system shouldn't be used as an example.

Like I said, it's a great example of how AWD can be used to go around a track better, the Evo's more catered to off road AWD ( not that particular modified model, but the Evo's AWD system none he less), and so looking at how other high performing AWD systems designed for road performance work is good when bringing one system to the other side.

Nowhere have I said mirror the R34 system, but rather use it as an example.

Mirroring the R34 system would be impossible anyway...

The HKS CT230R doesn't use the Evo's AWD system (which has the hamazing thing that is AYC) but instead uses "normal" differentials. If I'm going to deal with AWD's added weight and not have computers sending the power to where it will be best used, I'm going to do my best to maximize its advantage. Traction. The more power and grip you have, the further rearward torque bias naturally needs to be but hey... 50/50 worked great (aside from the fact it broke the e-brake on the Impreza) on my Impreza and the CT230R I did.

 

[oppositelock]

This is true but it should not be receiving that 50 percent split until it doesn't need to dedicate all possible grip to cornering forces.

I take that to mean you let the car coast through corners and then wait to hit the throttle until the wheel is pointed totally straight. Sounds like a slow way to drive, eh.

Regardless, I think the art of tuning requires one to be able to correctly assess each vehicle's strengths and weaknesses, prioritize the problem areas, and then make compromises. With AWD cars, corner exit traction is not a problem. That's a strength. Understeer, on both entry and exit, however is a problem. I would say it's THE problem. Making your worst problem worse in order to fix a problem that doesn't exist doesn't strike me as a good compromise. Common sense should dictate the opposite approach.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

This is true but it should not be receiving that 50 percent split until it doesn't need to dedicate all possible grip to cornering forces.

What are you talking about? It will get f-Ed when you hit the gas at any point in a turn causing throttle understeer. You probably don't see it because you tune too much throttle oversteer from the back end. So what your doing is braking late then when you mash the throttle your front understeers, but because you tuned the back end to oversteer on throttle (addressing the wrong side of the car) this take advantage of GT5 being a game and your tires won't blow out, likely what would happen with this type of tuning in the real world after a few laps, or it would simply eat out the tread/overheat the tires till your sliding off the track.

It's a game so if taking advantage of the games inability to fully replicate the real world makes you faster, that's fine.

lol gonna let this blunder get buried huh.

 

[MONSTAR-1]

I started the set up with 70% at the rear and found the car to be faster every time I got closer to 50/50. With a 50/50 set up it's more of a point and shoot approach into and out of the corners. This works well on Tsukuba. There are only 2 fast corners. I can just about live with how the car understeers through the final corner for now but the corner that's giving me the most trouble is the exit of the right turn 5 and through the fast sweeping left of turn 6. That's where I'm losing time because of the understeer.

The area of set up I'm working on is the front diff and the toe. I've found that by getting the toe down to 0 on front and rear the car handles a lot better. When I get this to how I like it then I'll start working on the rake and rear diff. ATM my main concern is getting the car to not want to push understeer through the fast corners.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

I think it may be style vs set up. With the "point and shoot" style in the corner the settings good for that will have understeering issues.

Tuning is a lot of compromises, what may help you in one area can hurt others. In this case your tuned to have Max forward motion on throttle (that's why you have to wait until you point before you can shoot) that's okay for the way your attacking the tight corners if your having fun and it works for you. However it's f-ing you on that kink/sweeper cause your tuned to go only straight on throttle.

If you want to ease up the understeering you may have to sacrifice some of that exit grunt for turning ability. The double side to this is you should be able then to predictive shoot out the corner after holding a higher speed in the corners to a higher exit speed. In the end getting faster times. In order to take advantage of the LSD you need to adjust your style, running "point & shoot" with a set up LSD and you won't use it to it's potential.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

What are you talking about? It will get f-Ed when you hit the gas at any point in a turn causing throttle understeer. You probably don't see it because you tune too much throttle oversteer from the back end. So what your doing is braking late then when you mash the throttle your front understeers, but because you tuned the back end to oversteer on throttle (addressing the wrong side of the car) this take advantage of GT5 being a game and your tires won't blow out, likely what would happen with this type of tuning in the real world after a few laps, or it would simply eat out the tread/overheat the tires till your sliding off the track.

It's a game so if taking advantage of the games inability to fully replicate the real world makes you faster, that's fine.

lol gonna let this blunder get buried huh.

Righto, you absolutely cannot hit the gas in a FWD car until the car is going dead straight or you'll understeer massively and crash.

Flawed logic is flawed. If my way of setting the car up is so terrible, why did I win the first month of TCC? Oh, that's right, that's because you didn't enter right? :roll:

 

[MONSTAR-1]

@ ob st33r
Yeah that's all true. I realize that I'm robbing Peter to pay paul but I've figured that for a faster time around Tsukuba it's has to be point and shoot. there more time to be gained in the slower turns than the 2 fast sweepers. Of course this approach isn't ideal for a ciruict like GVS.

ATM if I don't get the right line through the fast sweeping left I can't hold it flat. What I'm looking for is a little more friendly through there of a set up. Then I'll be able to beat the real time of 53.5xx

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Righto, you absolutely cannot hit the gas in a FWD car until the car is going dead straight or you'll understeer massively and crash.

Flawed logic is flawed. If my way of setting the car up is so terrible, why did I win the first month of TCC? Oh, that's right, that's because you didn't enter right? :roll:

When the Front wheels are the only ones giving power there is no split front to rear so there will be no sending power to the rear. Or from the rear to the front, what does that have to do with us managing AWD? Because FWD has a fundamental flaw, we should mimic it with AWD? No no no, we use the front only when we have to, when it benefits us to do so, causing unnecessary understeer is not beneficial.

BTW front wheel drive cars biggest set back is understeering on throttle, only so much traction available to balance acceleration and turningt.

Anything can work in GT5 because it's a game, so what you won a video game race. Some of us keep it as real as possible. So your fast exploiting the shortcomings of a game. Come to the local track so we can have a chuckle.

I see all kinds of backwards to reality tuning here, and it works, great, does that make it anymore unrealistic? Nope.

 

[Adrenaline]

Monstar, you'll have to decide what's best for you.
Noobster likes to tune cars, with what he feels to be 'realistic'.
That's fine, but 'realistic' will only get you so far in a game.
If your goal is to be fast, sometimes you have to think outside of the box.
The choice is up to you and no one can tell you which was is better or worse, but based on your 2nd post, it sounds like you're relying on lap times, to discern between tunes, and I'm with you, I do the same thing.

If you want to 'cheat' some oversteer into the car, try lowering the rear ride height in increments of 2 until you find the balance you like. Drive it around and see how it feels for you. If you find that this 'cheat' made you faster, then you can focus on a better way to induce understeer without needing to abuse ride height, as it's not what most consider a proper tuning method.

You say you're running 53.5, you'd want to compare that to a tuner who can run comparable laps. I've found that depending on how hard tuners push their cars, can determine results for yourself. For example, if Joe Tuner is running 55 second laps and says his car handles 'perfectly balanced' and then you hop in it, and run 53's, you can imagine the 'balance' won't be the same for you, because you're pushing the car much harder then them. Keep that in mind.

Try the ride height trick and let me know how it goes.
And... just in case your rear ride height can't be lowered, raise the front. So long as you have the rear lower than the front, that's an easy way to quickly test.

Another test for you, raise your rear LSD Accel Setting by 5-10 and see if you gain the ability to carry more speed through that sweeping left you mentioned.

Also, post the whole set up you currently have, so we can see the whole picture.

 

[MONSTAR-1]

Nice post Adrenaline!

I wouldn't think of having the rake towards the rear than the front but as you said " think outside the square" I'll try it to see what happens.

Id like to find someone who has tuned this car on Tsukuba to see what lap times they have done. I found a lap time in the OLR section but his was a 55 second lap. I don't know how far into tuning he went but so far I'm 1.5 secs faster than that.

From what I can remember the fastest time I did with this car from stock was a 56 or 55.

I'll consider this tune a success if or when I get under 53.5. Perhaps a 52 is unrealistic for this car.

 

[Onboy123]

If you're looking for a benchmark time, my CT230R did a 52.802 on Tsukuba with room for improvements on certain parts of that lap.

 

[MONSTAR-1]

Wow! That's a great time. Is that on sport softs?
Do you have a replay or pic of your time?

I've still have a lot of tuning to do but a whole second is alot of time to make up.

 

[boomee]

FYI HKS USA is closing

 

[-raVer-]

Wow! That's a great time. Is that on sport softs?
Do you have a replay or pic of your time?

I've still have a lot of tuning to do but a whole second is alot of time to make up.

Racing Softs maybe or not stock

Stock times I have seen something between 54.8 and 55.5


raVer

 

[MONSTAR-1]

Not sure what you mean raver ??

What do you mean by stock?

 

[-raVer-]

Not sure what you mean raver ??

What do you mean by stock?

default settings on default tyres as you bought it from the dealer

edit: I have driven this car only in Arcade Mode on Sports Soft

raVer

 

[MONSTAR-1]

Oh ok. 1st you had 44.5 and that's why I was confused as that time is impossible lol.

But I'm curious as to which tyres onboy used to het that time

 

[Onboy123]

I used Racing Softs tyres and a high RPM turbo to do that lap

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Just tagged a 53:555 lap 4 first visit to Suzuka outside A-Spec in GT5.

All I did was get a F/R torque splitting Diff & some Race Tires I then drop the front split from 30 to 10, & dropped the LSD values in the front nothing else, Stock Turbo.

Ohh and my Evo had no miles on it when I took it out, still in the break in period.

 

[-raVer-]

Just tagged a 53:555 lap 4 first visit to Suzuka outside A-Spec in GT5.

All I did was get a F/R torque splitting Diff & some Race Tires I then drop the front split from 30 to 10, & dropped the LSD values in the front nothing else, Stock Turbo.

Ohh and my Evo had no miles on it when I took it out, still in the break in period.

Go to Arcade Mode slap Race Softs on the car and you easily pull 52s on Tsukuba

raVer

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Go to Arcade Mode slap Race Softs on the car and you easily pull 52s on Tsukuba

raVer

? Arcade mode has different physics??

 

[Mysterious R]

Not sure what you mean raver ??

What do you mean by stock?

Did you buy all parts other than tires?

Parts such as the Transmission, Turbo and torque controlled differential can be upgraded if you own the car, I think this is what was meant.

 

[-raVer-]

? Arcade mode has different physics??

I don´t think so.
I set grip to "real" and damage to "light" and pulled a 52.983 within the 1st lap.


raVer