Honda Fan Club - under new management

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Perfect Balance
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But yea, high rpms aren't really necessary. I remember spoon had a civic that went up pretty high but it got basically to the point where the pistons were going down faster than the explosion from the spark could push the piston.

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How would that work? It's the explosion that pushes the pushes the piston down. Where would it get the extra power from?
 
ferrari_chris
How would that work? It's the explosion that pushes the pushes the piston down. Where would it get the extra power from?
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Well, what really happens is the pistons move faster and faster until the speed at which they move is basically equivalent to the speed of the explosion, making just enough torque to keep them spinning that fast, and no more is left to push the car any faster than it's already going.


I worded it bad. The scenario I explained is past what the car can actually reach unless it was going downhill or something, I was just using it to show why extremely high rpms are pointless/only work to an extent.


 
Usually, that situation will not be given a chance to happen, as most of the time there will be valve float long before piston speed is so high that the piston literally outruns the flame front. (Of course, at that high of rpm, we may as well let it detonate, eh?) Only time I can even fathom it happening is spinning something with, say, a 4.5" stroke to 8 grand. But almost no head can feed that kind of air into the cylinder anyhow.

Of course, if there was an engine that, under free-rev conditions, was limited in RPM by the speed of the expansion due to combustion, at that point you may as well allow detonation as the expansion won't be resisted like it would at lower RPM.
 
Hey Chris, :wave:

Things are looking good, ive just been really busy dude. I go away on holidays on tuesday, but ill throw you an email if i dont catchya before then :)
 
Perfect Balance
I'm not sure what engine you have, but I'm guessing some form of the d16 engine. The 6,800 limiter is fine, although you'd have to take that right up to the redline before shifting. Thats basically the point where the torques starts to fade. My limiter goes up to 7200, but I shift just under 7k since it has no power up higher.


But yea, high rpms aren't really necessary. I remember spoon had a civic that went up pretty high but it got basically to the point where the pistons were going down faster than the explosion from the spark could push the piston.


I'm guessing thats also why most engines start losing torque up high, just because the pistons are moving faster and the combustions are making less force onto the pistons, until it doesn't make enough to move the car faster at all.
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Yeah, that makes alot of sense. I *might* raise the rev limiter to 7200 just so i can shift at 7, because its hard to judge right where 6800rpms is at. But then thats another 200rpms that might possibly be bad for the motor later on.

As far as extremely high rpms, what about that 22000rpm Alfa Romeo race car? Ridiculous amount of RPMs for little power. Maybe a huge compression ratio can make up for the lack of power at high RPMs, no?

EDIT: Oh, and i have a D15B7 with a D16A6 cam, edelbrock intake manifold, edelbrock 4-2-1 header, full single-pipe AEM CAI. 11.67lb flywheel as well. Revs fast and makes good power.. I'm thinking about a head mill (.030") to bump compression, and then i'm going to get the car tuned.. I should be able to make atleast 125chp or more (i've seen great results with my setup in other cars, upwards of 140chp after tune!).
 
One of the limiting factors for high-rpm power is airflow. I could raise the limiter on my B16 to 8500 if I wanted to, but the stock power peak is 7800 and it goes down after that. The stock intake tract, head ports, and exhaust just can't flow any more air. I can get a new intake to feed a little more air and raise the power along with the peak, which will be at a slightly higher rpm. Beyond that you can change out the intake manifold, port and polish the head, slap on high-flow exhaust ports and whatnot and gain lots of power and rpms.

But then your power peak might be higher than what the stock 8000rpm limiter allows. So you build the valvetrain with stronger parts to allow higher rpm. While you do this you can swap out valves that flow better to gain more power...

Also, timing plays a big part in it. I don't really understand all those technical shenanigans, but it plays a big role. But for everything you do to gain high-rpm power you're going to compromise your low-end power. It'll most likely be more powerful across the entire range, but you'll have only slight gains of a few hp down low, where you may have gained 40 up high. Because of that it'll feel difficult to drive the thing at slow speeds because the difference in power is so dramatic.

I believe the compression ratio is a determiner for power in general, as opposed to at a certain rpm. A high-comp engine is just going to make more power no matter what. But that's just generally. I think high compression does work better along with high rpms though.
 
Which is the type of rating a manufacturer gives their cars. You get it with an engine dyno, as opposed to the approximate "for tuning use only" reading of chassis dynos that read the torque left over after it's been transferred from the engine to the wheels.
 
Yeah, i prefer to have a good amount of power, even down low.. So i'm trying to tune the car to keep a good amount of power. I really want to try to get rid of the lag at the bottom of 3rd, but more-so 4th. First and second is great, i fly through them like nothing, but 3rd takes a bit longer than i'd like, but is still pretty quick.

I believe my 0-60 was 8.8 seconds.. Which is okay for a honda i suppose.
 
Update on the car hunt.

I asked for a 5th gen Prelude to be located along with some of my other picks. So it may be a possibility that I get another one. This time I hope I get black or blue. :D I know that if he locates me one it will be another base model with the 5pd like the other one I had.
 
ferrari_chris
So what's the difference between that and a regular hp measured at the flywheel?
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Flywheel horsepower is basically crank horse power.. What you're thinking about is wheel horse power. Difference between chp and whp is about 15% less than chp at the wheels.
 
ferrari_chris
So what's the difference between that and a regular hp measured at the flywheel?
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Acid X
Flywheel horsepower is basically crank horse power.. What you're thinking about is wheel horse power. Difference between chp and whp is about 15% less than chp at the wheels.
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Right. Crank horsepower is horsepower measured on an engine dyno. They hook to engine itself up to a dyno on the output shaft of the crank and see how much power the engine has. That's the way manufacturers measure it.

Wheels horsepower is measured on a "rolling road" or whatever you want to call it. Technically it's a chassis dynamometer. That reads the power that gets to the wheels, but it's always lower than crank horsepower because of parasitic losses, like the power wasted by having to actually turn the innards of the transmission, axles, brakes and wheels. That extra weight the engine has to turn saps a lot of it's power.
 
JCE
Update on the car hunt.

I asked for a 5th gen Prelude to be located along with some of my other picks. So it may be a possibility that I get another one. This time I hope I get black or blue. :D I know that if he locates me one it will be another base model with the 5pd like the other one I had.
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Thats what I like to hear:tup:
 
Of the final picks the 5th gen Prelude was on my list for preferenece.

Final cars that made the cut:
  • 2000-2005 Ford Crown Vic P71 Police Interceptor
  • 2001-2003 Volvo S60
  • 1999-2003 Volvo S80[/B]
  • 1997-2001 Honda Prelude
  • 1997-2002 Nissan Maxima SE
  • 2000-2003 Lincoln LS V8
 
My uncle gave me a d16y8 today, although I haven't brought it home yet.

I really hope my car works after the timing belt is done so I can go ahead and swap in that intake manifold.

And I also hope the y8 engine is from a pre-98 automatic model. That would save me a lot of trouble.
 
Perfect Balance
My uncle gave me a d16y8 today, although I haven't brought it home yet.

I really hope my car works after the timing belt is done so I can go ahead and swap in that intake manifold.

And I also hope the y8 engine is from a pre-98 automatic model. That would save me a lot of trouble.
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Automatic? What for?

Also, I need finally found out what the noise is coming from my front end. My wheel bearing(s) are starting to go bad. That's what I get for high mileage and a sudden ass-kicking that the car's never been subjected to before. I ordered new parts from NAPA today and I'll pick them up after work. Anyone have installation experience? Apparently these are hub/bearing assemblies, and I don't know what that means exactly.
 
You should just pick up a manual from NAPA. That will help you alot.

Speaking of motors that one will be getting.. I will be coming on on a K20Z3 out of the new 2006 civic si soon. It's knocking because the guy that owned the car put a hole in the oil pan and drove it until the oil light came on. By the time the guy got it towed to the shop it was already knocking and he needed a new motor. SO my buddy that works at honda will be getting the motor for me (bare motor, head +block basically with all innards) for free. I'll probably build it back to stock specs and sell it for a hell of a profit because of what it is.

I'd drop it in my civic, but 1: too much work, 2: not legal at ALL in california.
 
Keef
Automatic? What for?
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The Automatic is a lot easier to change the intake manifold from, as well as the 96 - 98.

Unfortunately, it's both a 99+ and a manual. I wish I had gotten the transmission, it's geared shorter.

And the exhaust manifold is missing the bottom half. I might have to stop by the junkyard sometime to pick up the other half. 4-2-1 header stock? Yes please!

@ Acid X: Move then.
 
LOL. I don't think a K20 plus all the hassle of getting everything linked up right (ECU, ignition etc) is worth moving...

I can easily make 200hp out of my D for less than half the cost of dropping the K in!
 
I'm not completely giving up guys, I told them that the Prelude was just as important as the Maxima and Police Interceptor. :D
 
Anything mechanically in terms of problems I should watch out for in buying a Civic, Accord, or Integra? And mechanically as in problems and not under powered stuff. Late 90's through 2002 or so are my targets.
 
JCE
Anything mechanically in terms of problems I should watch out for in buying a Civic, Accord, or Integra? And mechanically as in problems and not under powered stuff. Late 90's through 2002 or so are my targets.
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I truly can't think of anything major.

I know Civic hood latch handles (little plastic part you pull on) break all the time. I have yet to see an unbroken one.
 
Well assuming they are reliable how often will you even to open the bonnet? :D

Oh, and the transmission issue for Acura CL's was the second gen and not first gen. I might nab me a first generation CL.
 
JCE
Well assuming they are reliable how often will you even to open the bonnet? :D

Oh, and the transmission issue for Acura CL's was the second gen and not first gen. I might nab me a first generation CL.
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There was a point where I had nothing to do under my hood in terms of clean up or adding parts, or painting random things black to cover rust, and I had "working on car" withdrawal symptoms. I would open my hood and look for something to do a few days a week without luck, because there really wasn't anything wrong. Other than this recent problem, I'd had 0 other problems. Honda's use a bit of oil though, so you'll have to open your hood every few weeks and check on that.
 

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