Honda NSX no more... plus 5-6 pages on various industry-related topic
- Thread starter ferrari_chris
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McLaren
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Yeah, and its amazing to see that a used one now from certain years is extremely cheap.a6m5Holy cow. It was that much cheaper back then. That reminds me of Lexus LS400. I think they started at only $35,000 when it launched.
What! I hate you! zoom zoom's my favorite commercials. And no, I don't want to hear how Mazda's part of Ford.
http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/Used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2334/act/usedcarreviewprices/
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- OREGON
- a6m5zero
They used to be like 1/4 Ford, then Ford bought way over 50% of Mazda(I think it was like 70, 80%?). If they are only 1/3 Ford, did they buy back some shares?BlazinXtreme
They are cheap. If you can afford to maintain them, they are guranteed to become collector cars, just like the classic American cars(muscle cars, 50's cars, etc.).McLaren F1GTR
Damn it, Blazin! I still hate you! 
Joey D
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- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
Looks like 33.4% according to this http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_ford_raises_mazda/ but then again I suck at reading right now since its a little after 2 in the morning and I've had a few to drink tonight 
. And everyone hates me don't know know 
.
. And everyone hates me don't know know .
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- a6m5zero
BlazinXtremeLooks like 33.4% according to this http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_ford_raises_mazda/ but then again I suck at reading right now since its a little after 2 in the morning and I've had a few to drink tonight
You know I'm just playin'.
Actually, not only your figure is correct, but I can't find any record of Ford ever owning over 70% share of Mazda. This is driving me nuts. I remember reading something back in the mid 90's(when Mazda hit the wall), how Ford was bailing Mazda out with an HUGE investment, which I believe said buying out over 70% of Mazda. Anybody here remember this? M5?
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- ferrari_chris
I'm not sure on the numbers, but I always thought Ford had a much bigger stake in Mazda than 30%.
This connection shows through strongly in their cars. Here's some example - I'm not sure if you got all these models in the USA or not, but we got them all down here in NZ.
Mazda 323: ------------------------------------------- Ford Laser:
Mazda 626 Wagon: ----- Ford Telstar Wagon:
Mazda 323: --------------- Ford Laser:
It's not so much a case of see the similarities, more of spot the difference.
Because all these cars are so similar, this leads me to believe the connection between Mazda and Ford is more than 30%, or at least has been in the past.
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This connection shows through strongly in their cars. Here's some example - I'm not sure if you got all these models in the USA or not, but we got them all down here in NZ.
Mazda 323: ------------------------------------------- Ford Laser:
Mazda 626 Wagon: ----- Ford Telstar Wagon:
Mazda 323: --------------- Ford Laser:
It's not so much a case of see the similarities, more of spot the difference.
Because all these cars are so similar, this leads me to believe the connection between Mazda and Ford is more than 30%, or at least has been in the past.
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Ugh. Yes, the companies have many twins. That doesn't mean Ford has a majority stake. Sorry to say it, ferrari_chris, but drawing the conclusion that because many models are the same, one company owns another is absurd. Toyota and GM have had US twins for years. GM and Honda used to twin certain models. It's completely baseless.
For the record, I looked it up: In May 1996 Ford actually increased their stake in Mazda to one-third. Prior to that it was even less.
For the record, I looked it up: In May 1996 Ford actually increased their stake in Mazda to one-third. Prior to that it was even less.
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- a6m5zero
Yup. I remember it was around 24 -25% before that. During my google search, I came across a data that said that Ford used to own 50% of Mazda, but it was prior to all this.M5Power
Also, another example of companies sharing twin vehicle without stakes in one another: Mercury Villager/Nissan Quest. Telstars were also sold in Japan. There was another Mazda based Ford vehicle that was sold along side Telstar, but I can't remember it's name.....
a6m5
Other twins without a majority stake:
Dodge Ram = Mitsubishi Mighty Max
Ford Escape = Mazda Tribute
Ford Probe = Mazda MX-6
Ford Ranger = Mazda B-series
Geo Storm/Pontiac Firefly (Canada) = Suzuki Swift
Geo/Chevrolet Tracker/Pontiac Sunrunner (Canada) = Suzuki Sidekick/Vitara
Isuzu Rodeo = Honda Passport
Isuzu Trooper = Acura SLX
Mitsubishi 3000GT = Dodge Stealth
Mitsubishi Eclipse = Eagle Talon/Plymouth Laser
Mitsubishi Expo = Eagle Summit wagon
Mitsubishi Mirage/Colt = Dodge/Plymouth Colt/Eagle Summit
Mitsubishi Montero = Dodge Raider
Mitsubishi Starion = Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth Conquest
Toyota Corolla = Chevrolet/Geo Prizm
Toyota Matrix = Pontiac Vibe
GM does own 51% of Isuzu though, so the Isuzu-GM twins (Hombre, Impulse, Stylus, Ascender) are all majority-owned twins (barely).
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Ford is currently using mazdas chassis (currently being used in the 6) and volvo's safety standards along with its own panels etc to make its new focus in Australia.
Can anyone grab me some info ( or shed me some light) with the isuzu and honda ties.. i never thought that honda had any ties, being the lesser share. It did have rover and MG, but it always had dominant shares here.
Something else midly interesting is the new model lines that saab are bringing out to try desperately to save the mark. Theyre using Gm's share of subaru to provide Impreza chassis for a new sports crossover vehicle. Id rather see the make die. Saab was always renowned for origonality, if it has to lose its identity in order to stay alive it barely seems worthy.
Can anyone grab me some info ( or shed me some light) with the isuzu and honda ties.. i never thought that honda had any ties, being the lesser share. It did have rover and MG, but it always had dominant shares here.
Something else midly interesting is the new model lines that saab are bringing out to try desperately to save the mark. Theyre using Gm's share of subaru to provide Impreza chassis for a new sports crossover vehicle. Id rather see the make die. Saab was always renowned for origonality, if it has to lose its identity in order to stay alive it barely seems worthy.
a6m5
No it doesn't - Chrysler has for years controlled Mitsubishi with a very minimal stake, and of course General Motors does a good job controlling Subaru despite not even owning any of Subaru itself.
~Sp33~
I have previously called the Isuzu-Honda partnership of 1994 to 1999 one of the single worst partnerships in the history of business, and I continue to do so. It's one of my favorite stories to tell, too.
Honda's president announced in the early 1990s that he absolutely hated SUVs, but of course even then the trend was growing with the introduction of the 1991 Ford Explorer. So Honda decided it would approach General Motors about building SUVs for Honda. At the time, General Motors was really only producing one SUV worthy of a Honda badge (as in, not huge) so the Isuzu Rodeo became the Honda Passport in 1994. Interestingly, when the Rodeo debuted in 1992 it had "huge panel gaps" and a "dated interior" but when that same interior carried a Honda badge in 1994 it was "robust." The Passport was sold from 1994 to 1997, then redesigned and sold from 1998 to 2002. That really wasn't the bad part of the partnership.
1994-1997 Honda Passport
1998-2002 Honda Passport
In 1996, Honda, sensing the new premium SUV trend (long before the other manufacturers - I've previously said Honda actually was one of the pioneers of the trend, along with Land Rover) once again asked General Motors for an SUV - this time a copy of the Trooper that they could rebadge and sell upmarket as an Acura. So, the 1996-1999 Acura SLX was born. Unfortunately, this is where the partnership turned bad. Just a year later, ConsumerReports, an unfortunately widely-trusted consumer magazine, decided that because of the Trooper/SLX's high roof design, it was prone to rolling over during panic maneuvers and gave the car a "not acceptable" rating in their magazine. This was pretty unfortunate for Acura, who hadn't even had a hand in the design of the vehicle and was really just along for the ride. Both reputations were pretty badly damaged due to the ConsumerReports rating; Isuzu sued CR and Acura eventually withdrew the SLX from the market.
1996-1999 Acura SLX
Perhaps the worst car to come out of the partnership was the 1996-1999 Isuzu Oasis. In 1995 Honda began selling an underpowered minivan known as the Odyssey. Many people have either forgotten about this vehicle or never knew about it in the first place; I've heard the 1999-2004 Odyssey referred to as the "first-gen Odyssey" more times than I can remember. But indeed, there was a real first-gen Odyssey, poor though it was. Isuzu adopted the design in 1996 as part of Honda's payment for using the Trooper and Rodeo. Unfortunately for Isuzu, the car was trash with a Honda badge which meant it was really trash with an Isuzu badge - the majority of these things are now taxi cabs in New York City. The best part of the whole thing is that when the 1995-1998 Honda Odyssey was redesigned, Isuzu was given the option to sell the next-generation model but passed because of poor sales of the original. Of course, the 1999-2004 Odyssey is called by most journalists the best minivan ever built.
1996-1999 Isuzu Oasis
The relationship was actually rekindled in 2003, when General Motors approached Honda about using some Honda engines. Currently, GM uses Honda's 3.5-liter V6 (found in, among other things, the Honda Pilot, Honda Ridgeline, and Acura MDX) in its 2004-_ Saturn Vue V6, and in return GM builds diesel engines for Honda in Europe.
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Was the Trooper/SLX actually prone to rollover, or did Consumer Repots just decide that it was regardless of reality?
edit: Yes, there was a GMC. That means the same vehicle was sold under at least 6 different brands.
And Asuna something. Wasn't there a GMC version too? Is that thing the most rebadged vehicle ever?M5Power
edit: Yes, there was a GMC. That means the same vehicle was sold under at least 6 different brands.
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M5Power
it definantly wasnt a great one. Both seemed to hate each other and swapped there crappest vehicles for little gain. I pitty the poor peoples.
AS for the isuzu trooper, aka holden jackaroo in which its called in aussie, i happen to own one, well drive one. (company vehicle) And by far (although its very nice) it has the dynamics of a wet sponge. I hope honda did something to its chassis or something to make it handle, even slightly better.
BlazinXtreme
Yeah, the D50 - that would be the equivalent to a Ford F50, if such a vehicle existed. In other words, the payload capacity was 500lbs.
Emohawk
I don't buy CR's testing method, but I think they reached a semi-valid conclusion. Basically, their rating was based on taking an S-curve at 35mph with minimal braking. I'm not sure the last time you did that, but I try to avoid it in my two-door "sports car", let alone in an SUV. The whole idea of their testing procedure was idiotic, and I think they may have changed it slightly since.
However, no one can deny that the vehicle was very tall for its length and width - CR just reached the conclusion that it may tip in a slightly faulty manner.
I think the Sidekick was the Asuna Sunrunner too - and perhaps a GMC in Canada. In the US, it was only the Suzuki Sidekick and Geo Tracker; it got all those absurd rebadgings for the Canadian market.
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Your Excursion is called a Carnival? That's almost laughable, but it reminds me what a stupid name 'excursion' is to begin with.
Jackaroo and Brumby are still hilarious though.
So the Sunkickvitracker was sold as;
Asuna Sunrunner
Chevrolet Tracker
Geo Tracker
GMC Tracker
Pontiac Sunrunner
Suzuki Sidekick
Suzuki Vitara
That has to be a record.
Jackaroo and Brumby are still hilarious though.
M5Power
So the Sunkickvitracker was sold as;
Asuna Sunrunner
Chevrolet Tracker
Geo Tracker
GMC Tracker
Pontiac Sunrunner
Suzuki Sidekick
Suzuki Vitara
That has to be a record.
~Sp33~
You'd think, but when you look at the stats, the Trooper really sort of deserved to be singled out:
Vehicle (Length x Width x Height)
92-02 Isuzu Trooper (183 x 69 x 72)
95-01 Ford Explorer (188 x 70 x 67)
95-05 Chevrolet Blazer (181 x 68 x 67)
92-98 Jeep Grand Cherokee (177 x 69 x 65)
88-95 Nissan Pathfinder (172 x 67 x 65)
90-95 Toyota 4Runner (177 x 67 x 66)
Trooper was the tallest by far, and middle-of-the-road in length and width. So while other SUVs look similarly, Trooper definitely looks, to me, relatively prone to tipping.
The Kia Carnival is sold in the US as the Kia Sedona. Meanwhile, we get the following SUVs from Ford:
- Escape (small)
- Explorer (midsize)
- Expedition (large)
- Excursion (huge)
People give the Excursion a lot of crap for its size, but money talks loudest, and nearly no one buys them - so it's unjustified, really.
Emohawk
That's a little unfair, since the vehicle was rebadged as those two things in two separate generations. I believe it should be:
1. Asuna Sunrunner = Geo Tracker = GMC Tracker = Pontiac Sunrunner = Suzuki Sidekick
2. Chevrolet Tracker = Suzuki Vitara/Grand Vitara
I'm not sure whether the GMC or Pontiac versions saw the second generation, but I know it didn't become a Chevrolet until the second generation, and the name changed to Vitara then too. It'd be like calling the 2003- Pontiac Grand Prix a rebadge of the 1980s-1996 Chevrolet Caprice because even though those cars weren't twins, they are now.
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- ferrari_chris
We have the Vitara/Grand Vitara here in NZ, and we also get it imported from Japan. Over there it is the Escudo - hence the Pikes Peak machine.M5Power
That's another name to add to the list. This thing sure has been sold under a lot of different badges.
