Honda to quit F1? - Now with added Brawn GP

[Metar]

Would it be safe to say Honda/BrawnGP has pulled the most impressive and unexpected sandbagging ever? I'm starting to think it would.

It's not sandbagging considering they didn't run at all until last week...

Just found an interesting picture too (thanks to AtlasF1):

Could this be the source of the massive advantage?

Problem with the Brawn car is that it's a good package overall - but this part is a contributing factor. It's a more elegant solution to what Renault and Williams have been trying to complete since their first day - under-nose downforce, with the added bonus of improved airflow to the rear. But again - one such part never creates a whole second. Even the Inerter, the 2008 must-have part, didn't gain more than half a tenth - and it was the piece of technology that set the good from the bad apart last year.

 

[MustangSVT]

Just notice the cries of joy of my spanish fellowmen upon seeing Ferrari beat a McLaren.

Also, as usual, I'm not believing any of the conclusions coming out from these tests. Not even the apparent lack of grip of the McLaren. I can totally see them going back to the front row in Melbourne.

I just don't want to make illusions. As GREAT as it would be to watch Massa, Raikkonnen and Hamilton fighting for the midfield points while the 'lesser' drivers share plenty of podiums, it's just too... Beautiful to be true. Too utopic. Too satisfying. Too challenging and exciting. Ohmyfriggin'god I can't wait 'till Melbourne comes. ;_;

One can only hope. While I wat Raikkonen to be world champ, it would be quite something to see the likes of Raikkonen fighting for the midfield points.

The most exciting overtake I remember in recent years was Kubica vs Massa at Fuji in 2007 in the wet.

 

[Havok_]

Brawn GP looks to be a real contender, although no one can be sure of what type of fuel loads are being put into the car the performance is impressive. Brawn are looking for sponsors and putting the field to shame would certainly help in that aspect. It will be a fantastic Melbourne indeed, it's been a long wait for many of us and we don;t have much longer to wait to see who the true contenders are...i can't wait for q3!!!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

When are they running a proper livery? Apparently they have one line up for Melborune, but I've also heard they'll do an Aguri and run relatively sponsor-free for a few rounds.

Also, this is getting a little out of hand ...

Ferrari: Brawn GP could fight for Formula One title this season

4 hours ago

BARCELONA, Spain — Brawn GP set the fastest time again in Formula One testing Thursday and the team's impressive start has led to Ferrari dubbing it a surprise contender for the championship.

Rubens Barichello set the pace at the Catalunya Circuit on Thursday with a best lap time of one minute 18.926 seconds one day after teammate Jenson Button was quickest for the former Honda team, which only confirmed last week it would race this season after completing a buyout by Ross Brawn.

"I would say after Barcelona this new Brawn has surprised everybody," Ferrari's Felipe Massa said. "I would say that before Barcelona we were one of the quickest cars on the track or maybe we were very competitive in the front. And now we're still competitive - behind the Brawn."

Barichello was the only driver to go under 1:19 in the four-day session, something Massa didn't believe Ferrari or any of the other nine teams could match.

"I would say the lap times are just much quicker than anyone can do," Massa said. "I'm not an engineer and I never saw the Brawn car so I cannot say they have balance or they don't have . . . but even if they have no balance and they put balance they will be quick anyway. It is very surprising."

Brawn GP is going into the season-opening Australian Grand Prix with a victory in mind, and appears to be reaping the benefits of its decision last year to focus on the 2009 car as it struggled at the bottom of the team standings.

"I've been waiting for this time to come for such a long time," the 37-year-old Barrichello said. "I've waited since I joined Honda to have a car as such that has that good feeling. All I can confirm is that it is a good car, it is a good engine it is a good group and I think we are going to be the surprise of the year."

Massa said Brawn can get even better when it gets its Kenetic Energy Recovery System running.

"Can you imagine if the Brawn has KERS how quick they are going to be? At least we can have a good start and fight with them on the start and then pray lap-by-lap to be in front."

Barichello said the fast car, which is powered by a McLaren Mercedes engine, will likely prove better than the 2006 edition, which provided the Honda team its only race win to date at the Hungarian Grand Prix.

"The (2006) cars were good but not as good as this one," Barichello said. "It's a great start, it's a great group doing a great car."

McLaren's results improved slightly as Lewis Hamilton kept the British team from finishing last for a second consecutive day.

Hamilton finished nearly two seconds back of Barichello in eighth and will do little to quell speculation that McLaren's pace is off after a week where both Hamilton and teammate Heikki Kovalainen finished at the bottom of the time sheets.

"To be honest we never saw McLaren so far in the back in many years," said Massa, who duelled with Hamilton for the world title to the final lap last season. "But it's a team which we need to respect, they still can improve and they have another session of testing that we don't have so they still can improve the car and find what is wrong, what is not working. For sure it is surprising to see McLaren behind but we need to respect and wait for the first race of the season to have a clear idea about that."

McLaren, Brawn GP, Williams and Renault will test at the Jerez Circuit next week for the last time before Melbourne.

Nico Rosberg of Williams, Toyota's Timo Glock, Sebastian Vettel of Red Bull and Fernando Alonso of Renault rounded out the top five in the last test session to feature all 10 teams before the start of the new season.

Copyright © 2009 The Canadian Press. All rights reserved.

Linky

Okay, I think it's great that Brawn are doing what they're doing. In four days of testing at Barcelona, they haven't simply been the fastest, they've been the most consistent because both JB and Rubens have topped the timing sheets. But for a Ferrari driver to say they could be title contenders? That's pretty extreme, and it's almost ounding too goo to be true. Maybe I'm sounding pessimistic, but I just don't want the bubble to burst.

If this is true, it will be very interesting to see a JB vs. Hamilton showdown of sorts. A lot of Button supporters jumped ship once Hamilton did in six races what JB took one hundred and thirteen to do. I've read a lot of people - like Pat Symonds - saying that Button is just as good as Hamilton, but he's never had the car to back him up, except maybe in 2004. If the BGP-001 can make good on all the promises of potential it has been making over the past few days, there really could be an interesting situation arising.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I may be wrong, but if the "Brawns" (sounds funny to say it this way ) become title contenders, between Button and Barrichello for the WDC I'd bet on the 37 year old Barrichello. We'll see, it's nice anyway to see a new team unexpectedly do good. It reminds me the Wolfs in 1977.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

It happens almost every year like clockwork. Some team that looks promising at testing, then they fall back as the season starts. Don't get me wrong; I'm an underdog guy, but I'm withholding championship talk until 5 races from the end. As for McLaren's form, they seem cool about it all...maybe they know something we don't?

 

[Ardius]

It happens almost every year like clockwork. Some team that looks promising at testing, then they fall back as the season starts. Don't get me wrong; I'm an underdog guy, but I'm withholding championship talk until 5 races from the end. As for McLaren's form, they seem cool about it all...maybe they know something we don't?

A few days ago I would agree with you, but now I have to say its looking like it might be true pace.
I will say I think BMW and perhaps Toyota, Ferrari and Williams are hiding their hands and may be a bit closer to Brawn than we think.

As for McLaren, well, they aren't exactly going to say "our car is rubbish" are they? They clearly believe they can fix their problems next week, they aren't the kind of team to just give up.
I think its got to the point now where its undeniable they have problems, I mean would they really go so far as to tell Hamilton to put it in the gravel just to hide their true pace? Even James Allen, Hamilton-fanboy supreme himself, has noted that the drivers are having a hard time with the car.

I have a hard time believing Ross has managed to convince other teams to talk about his car like its the Brabham Fan car in modern times, either the other teams are pretending to be bad themselves or Ross Brawn has many, many friends in the paddock.

Oh, and I'd also like to think Rubens as the last driver on the grid who would put in such laptimes knowing his car is illegal in some way and smile so much about it.

 

[Metar]

A few days ago I would agree with you, but now I have to say its looking like it might be true pace.
I will say I think BMW and perhaps Toyota, Ferrari and Williams are hiding their hands and may be a bit closer to Brawn than we think.

First Alonso, now Massa say: The Brawn is fast.

As for McLaren, well, they aren't exactly going to say "our car is rubbish" are they?

They just did.

 

[Ardius]

First Alonso, now Massa say: The Brawn is fast.



They just did.

Heh, wow, I'm amazed McLaren would admit it,

What I mean by the other teams and drivers perhaps sandbagging still, is that they could be saying stuff like that just make it seem they are far worse off the Brawn than they actually are. I'm inclined to believe Massa when he says that, but not so much with BMW, I think they do have a stronger car than they are showing. I'm curious about the Williams too.

 

[Sureboss]

This really is going to be the most baffling F1 season in a long time.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

This really is going to be the most baffling F1 season in a long time.

I think it's exciting; like everyone else, I'm more than a little pumped. Yes, it'll be odd to see Brawn go from nowhere to the top in one move - or so we hope - but I'm getting a little weary of Ferrari vs. McLaren with BMW and Renault standing a chance if the top four don't mess things up.

 

[Ardius]

The anticipation for the opening round of this season is almost killing me.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I know the feeling ... and I actually get to watch it this year! The college televisions have been pre-booked the past three years running, but I'll be at home for the weekend and Monday this time.

 

[Ardius]

The BBC already doing a better job than ITV:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7941029.stm

 

[ExigeEvan]

I think everyone is playing Brawn up, that includes Massa and Flav'.

Why? Because the drivers and teams have done alot to ensure that the Honda team doesn't collapse, but they're still without sponsorship. And as said by a few of you, posting good times is only going to help them.

Now, this is not to say that they aren't fast, merely that in the competitive world of F1 I wouldn't expect competing drivers to be saying much more than,"they're fast, but lets seem them when the season starts."

 

[Clark]

I'l' be annoyed if all th casusal F1 'Fans' ditch Hamilton and start supporting Button (yet last year they probably forgot who he was). That means I'll (I've been a JB fan since '03) be seen as one of the F1 'Hooligans' that have joined F1 since LH came in.

At the moment thought I'm trying not too get too excited, it all seems too good to be true.

Finally I supported Bruno Senna in GP2, and was hoping he'd get a drive in F1, but it's good to see Rubens is getting another chance too. Senna has now said he's going to get to F1 like Schumacher, via sportscars, where he can learn things like consistency in the longer races.

 

[Bram Turismo]

I think we are a bit blinded by the BrawnGP's pace, and totally forgetting about reliability.

So far I don't have any reason to believe this car is going to be the most reliable car on the grid, sure, it's fast, but without reliability, you're never going to be a serious contender in the 2009 season.

Yesterday evening I was thinking about what could be the coolest scenario after all these years of Ferrari vs. McLaren. BMW vs Brawn GP vs Toyota anyone?

I think we shouldn't forget about Toyota on this one. Granted, other teams may be sandbagging, but Toyota has been consistently amongst the top times posted in the testing sessions this winter. They've also covered a huge number of laps, with Glock being in the spotlight over at formula1.com. (Or so it seems...)

I really hope Toyota can be a serious contender for the new season, I'd love to see my favourit team getting the results they were getting in 2005, but then again, we've got new rules, and no one amongst us know which team is going to take full advantage of them in the first race.

On that, what do we reckon about last seasons rookies? Could they have a slight advantage over the drivers who are used to driving grooved tyres for so many years?

 

[Clark]

Like he says he's only a driver, but Massa reckons they're the real deal.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73698

 

[Metar]

I think everyone is playing Brawn up, that includes Massa and Flav'.

Why? Because the drivers and teams have done alot to ensure that the Honda team doesn't collapse, but they're still without sponsorship. And as said by a few of you, posting good times is only going to help them.

Now, this is not to say that they aren't fast, merely that in the competitive world of F1 I wouldn't expect competing drivers to be saying much more than,"they're fast, but lets seem them when the season starts."

Brawn GP has Honda funds until the end of the season - so there's absolutely no hurry to gain sponsors at the moment. Sponsors are needed for the next year(s) - and running underweight at Barcelona will defeat the purpose here: Sponsors will wait until at least Australia anyway, and if they turn up with a turd after that monster pace at Barcelona, their credibility will completely fall apart.

I think we are a bit blinded by the BrawnGP's pace, and totally forgetting about reliability.

So far I don't have any reason to believe this car is going to be the most reliable car on the grid, sure, it's fast, but without reliability, you're never going to be a serious contender in the 2009 season.

On the other hand, it ran full distances on all four days without a single hiccup. It also doesn't have KERS, so that's one less thing they (and Toyota, Williams, Fi and RBR/STR) don't have to worry about. During that same time, Ferrari was stuck in the pits for half a day...

 

[Tired Tyres]

I'm sure I heard that Ron Denis has said that McLaren will not reveal its final Aero package until Melbourne so that other teams won't be in a position to copy it.

Perhaps the rest of the teams are not doing really quick lap times because they don't want to alert the other teams to their capabilities?

The problem with Brawn is the lack of testing time meant they had to go at it full bore to get ready. The other teams now alerted to their speed will be analyzing images of the Brawn car to see if they can work out what makes it quick. If they can work it out, then they have until Melbourne to add the relevant parts to their own cars.

I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Metar]

It'll take then at least a month to properly design and analyze a part, and another month until it's been tested enough (on Fridays only, at that!) to end up on the qualifying car.

 

[peterjford]

On that, what do we reckon about last seasons rookies? Could they have a slight advantage over the drivers who are used to driving grooved tyres for so many years?

Some speculated that the rookies might have a slight advantage when they eliminated traction control. I think someone talented enough to get into F1 can adapt to these changes.

 

[Ardius]

I'm sure I heard that Ron Denis has said that McLaren will not reveal its final Aero package until Melbourne so that other teams won't be in a position to copy it.

Perhaps the rest of the teams are not doing really quick lap times because they don't want to alert the other teams to their capabilities?

The problem with Brawn is the lack of testing time meant they had to go at it full bore to get ready. The other teams now alerted to their speed will be analyzing images of the Brawn car to see if they can work out what makes it quick. If they can work it out, then they have until Melbourne to add the relevant parts to their own cars.

I hope I'm wrong.

But then the other teams won't have any testing time to test these new parts, at least not to the kind of lengths as previous years.
Once a team has lost pace this year, they aren't going to gain it back by the end of the year.

Then again, Brawn have come out and shown possibly what can be done with little track time.

Edit: Its starting to sound like most people believe the car is legit.....
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73700

The main reasons people are pointing to are the possibility its running on the very minimum weight restriction, the fact it won't use KERS and the benefits of the body work being designed around not having a KERS system.
Also that Honda were originally developing a flywheel KERS system which wouldn't have needed as much space in the first place nor the large air intakes for cooling, etc. So we might even still see a KERS system on the car later on.

Its becoming increasingly impossible to not get excited about this team and car. All sources are saying its the fastest thing out there and very few people are coming up with decent reasons why this car would be running illegal weight or anything like that.

I will say that I firmly believe this team will be in the top 6 easily at Melbourne, I will happily eat a hat if I'm wrong, but the evidence is getting overwhelming now.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Remember that bargeboard Ferrari was using in Melbourne a few years? (Or whatever it was...)

It gave them a slight advantage and teams had that part banned afterwards. Maybe Brawn GP have developed such a part to the car that no one else has come up with?

 

[Ardius]

Well, Flav is going on about the different diffusers, but several teams have those and so far the FIA think they are legal.
People have mentioned the extra ballast Brawn are using instead of the KERS system might be interpreted as illegal, but that makes no sense because KERS isn't compulsory this year and any of the teams could have done it that way if it was such an advantage. (I believe Toyota built two different chassis for this very reason or so I heard).

I hope nothing like that happens at least. It would be a sad day for privateer teams if the manufacturers once again throw their weight around.

 

[Metar]

(I believe Toyota built two different chassis for this very reason or so I heard).

McLaren originally went out stating they'll design two entirely different cars, one KERS-optimized and one ballast-optimized, to exactly test the difference, but they ended up satisfied with their KERS machine. Toyota originally wanted to use KERS for the obvious PR reasons, but then started struggling with it because, they claim, their extra security measures have cost them time (and I can see why they'd do extra safety - after all, they've got Prius sales depending on the safe image of hybrids).


EDIT: And Ardius - always trust Craig Scarborough. He's a reporter for Racecar Engineering, does the Autosport technical analysis, and often shares his insider info and questions on F1Technical - perhaps the best guy around as far as "public" F1 info gets.

 

[Ardius]

EDIT: And Ardius - always trust Craig Scarborough. He's a reporter for Racecar Engineering, does the Autosport technical analysis, and often shares his insider info and questions on F1Technical - perhaps the best guy around as far as "public" F1 info gets.

Yeah, I guessed he was trustworthy judging by how many people are throwing that article around as essentially evidence of BrawnGP's speed on other forums.

 

[ExigeEvan]

The main reasons people are pointing to are the possibility its running on the very minimum weight restriction, the fact it won't use KERS and the benefits of the body work being designed around not having a KERS system.
Also that Honda were originally developing a flywheel KERS system which wouldn't have needed as much space in the first place nor the large air intakes for cooling, etc. So we might even still see a KERS system on the car later on.

YES! Sorry, I don't see why batteries are being used for KERS at all. So much energy would be goin into manufacturing them and their life is probably quite limited.

Now flywheels, get one of those carbonfibre things spinning and you've got yourself some good stuff, in my opinion. Bearings might be an issue as it'll need alot of RPM but that's not something F1 has ever had a problem with.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Maybe Brawn GP have developed such a part to the car that no one else has come up with?

Maybe, but "They have it and we don't" is hardly grounds to get a part banned. Not unless it's in violation of the rules.

I'l' be annoyed if all th casusal F1 'Fans' ditch Hamilton and start supporting Button (yet last year they probably forgot who he was). That means I'll (I've been a JB fan since '03) be seen as one of the F1 'Hooligans' that have joined F1 since LH came in.

Yeah, I'm not big on that either. I've followed JB since 2000, and it was only t the end of 2007 that my interest started to wane. While I did look for his name on the timing sheets last year, Sebastian Vettel was always the first person I looked for instead of Button.

That said, there may be some comfort in looking down on the bandwagoners who crossed the floor from Camp Hamilton to Camp Button. Especially if they went from JB to Lewis at the beginning of 2007 and now the're crawling back.

 

[Ardius]

YES! Sorry, I don't see why batteries are being used for KERS at all. So much energy would be goin into manufacturing them and their life is probably quite limited.

Now flywheels, get one of those carbonfibre things spinning and you've got yourself some good stuff, in my opinion. Bearings might be an issue as it'll need alot of RPM but that's not something F1 has ever had a problem with.

Williams also developed a flywheel system but aren't using it straight away.

All the rest of the teams have gone the electric route.