Hopeful the "grind along the wall physics" will change...

[phosphor112]

I've been paying very close attention to every video that has come out showing GT5 footage, and after seeing today's Motor Show footage, I'm worried.

Something that has plagued GT is the "grind along wall" physics they've had. In the latest videos, you can see that the friction of the wall against the car is simply not high enough, especially when you can GAIN speed by doing so.

There has to be a way to get our voices heard. Not only would that help against online cheaters (unless they fixed that with penalties) it would at least make they physics more realistic.

Do you guys think that they are just using an old physics build? I mean, they really don't have the new damage system implemented yet, so that might change once they do. I'm just tired of seeing that over and over when they can EASILY fix that .If I can program such things into a Java game with little programming experience, I'm sure they can do it.

What do you guys think?

 

[Ollie1066]

We'll just have to wait a bit longer, Kaz has already confirmed the damage models seen at TGS and Gamescom were old builds. I'm sick of all these worry threads, can't they all just go into one big I'M WORRIED thread!

 

[QuantumReaction]

^^^ Agreed 👍

 

[Exorcet]

Ideally, it's important as contact with the wall happens, and one would expect it to be realistic in GT.

However, it's not a huge issue, aside from the online cheating aspect, which should be null with damage and kicking/private rooms. If you don't like wall riding and GT5 unfortunately happens to come with it, just don't do it. That's what I've been doing and it works.

 

[Pierced Lead]

I hope those metal railings also get dented and deformed as well.

 

[Jay]

Something that has plagued GT is the "grind along wall" physics they've had. In the latest videos, you can see that the friction of the wall against the car is simply not high enough, especially when you can GAIN speed by doing so.

To be honest metal railings like the ones in the Tokyo track doesn't have a lot of friction, they're smooth and metal. If you came up to one in real life at a shallow angle and slid along it, apply the throttle and of course you will gain speed following it like a tram line, but the difference in real life is the railing and your car deform and damage where in GT games so far you can hit them hard at even steep angles and ride them where in real life the rail and you car would be toast.

Stone barriers like on a country road is different (Citta di Aria etc), you tend to dig into them and have huge friction (and major damage). Stone barriers should have more friction but it would be silly to have metal railings turn into "sticky walls".


So what I am saying is it is really mostly all about the damage model which we haven't seen yet for GT5.

 

[Seismica]

To be honest metal railings like the ones in the Tokyo track doesn't have a lot of friction, they're smooth and metal. If you came up to one in real life at a shallow angle and slid along it, apply the throttle and of course you will gain speed following it like a tram line, but the difference in real life is the railing and your car deform and damage where in GT games so far you can hit them hard at even steep angles and ride them where in real life the rail and you car would be toast.

Stone barriers like on a country road is different (Citta di Aria etc), you tend to dig into them and have huge friction (and major damage). Stone barriers should have more friction but it would be silly to have metal railings turn into "sticky walls".


So what I am saying is it is really mostly all about the damage model which we haven't seen yet for GT5.

I couldn't really put it into words, but thats what i think. Those metal railings are designed to bend, to slow the car down to prevent a high impact collision, assuming the driver releases the throttle pedal upon impact of course, otherwise it will just accelerate like it does in the game.

 

[Devedander]

To be honest metal railings like the ones in the Tokyo track doesn't have a lot of friction, they're smooth and metal. If you came up to one in real life at a shallow angle and slid along it, apply the throttle and of course you will gain speed following it like a tram line, but the difference in real life is the railing and your car deform and damage where in GT games so far you can hit them hard at even steep angles and ride them where in real life the rail and you car would be toast.

Stone barriers like on a country road is different (Citta di Aria etc), you tend to dig into them and have huge friction (and major damage). Stone barriers should have more friction but it would be silly to have metal railings turn into "sticky walls".


So what I am saying is it is really mostly all about the damage model which we haven't seen yet for GT5.

I am not sure exactly of tokyo, but the metal railings I come across here stateside are specifically designed to do two things:

Slow you down dramatically

Draw the car into the railing somewhat to prevent a richochet

If you look at how they are made, they are made of pliable metal that deforms as you hit it, that side of your car is slowed down dramatically and thus you pull towards the rail. As you pull towards it more and more you force the posts that hold teh rail up to bend outwards as you go by them. This greatly slows you down and the rail acts as a sort of ramp to keep the posts sliding off your fender rathe rthan stopping you cold, but still causing a lot of resistance in the process.

The reason they are designed this way is that it's assumed if you hit one, you are driving wrecklessly or have lost control and they need to stop you as quickly and safely as possible and prevent you from returning to the flow of traffic.

So realistically a metal barrier should drastically slow you down and suck you into it.

 

[RedSuinit]

I am not sure exactly of tokyo, but the metal railings I come across here stateside are specifically designed to do two things:

Slow you down dramatically

Draw the car into the railing somewhat to prevent a richochet

If you look at how they are made, they are made of pliable metal that deforms as you hit it, that side of your car is slowed down dramatically and thus you pull towards the rail. As you pull towards it more and more you force the posts that hold teh rail up to bend outwards as you go by them. This greatly slows you down and the rail acts as a sort of ramp to keep the posts sliding off your fender rathe rthan stopping you cold, but still causing a lot of resistance in the process.

The reason they are designed this way is that it's assumed if you hit one, you are driving wrecklessly or have lost control and they need to stop you as quickly and safely as possible and prevent you from returning to the flow of traffic.

So realistically a metal barrier should drastically slow you down and suck you into it.

Not from my experience. Just saying.

EDIT: I feel like I should explain this statement. When I was 17 I saw a drunk hit a guard rail, and he just kept going. It didn't seem like he slowed down at all. He went another 2 miles before he ended up in a ditch...

 

[Devedander]

Not from my experience. Just saying.

EDIT: I feel like I should explain this statement. When I was 17 I saw a drunk hit a guard rail, and he just kept going. It didn't seem like he slowed down at all. He went another 2 miles before he ended up in a ditch...

Well I have never actually run into a guard rail so everything I think about them is due to what I have heard from others and seen. I have seen a few accidents where a car on the freeway got into a guard rail and the result was always something along the lines of the car coming to a complete stop in a few hundred feet, the point of impact having little deflection in the supporting posts and the posts leaning more and more as you progressed down the impact trail. The metail W bars were flattened and you could see where each poll had a bit of W bar wrapped around it (hard to describe but I think pretty much what you would imagine) essentially meaning that the support bar impacted the car head on, however the W bar kind of let the car slip along next to it a little to avoid just stopping the car dead or ripping pieces off.

I also had a CHP officer discuss this during a Drivers ed class back in High school. They showed a top down view of a car running into a guard rail at an angle and he explained it pretty much like I did. The car in the video seemed to support his explanation as you saw support posts pushed aside like a fullback running through a line of defenders, each one falling aside but slowing the FB down a bit.

Now I know new guard rails are constantly being proposed becuase the current W bar ones are considered not reliable enough, so it's possible that they don't always work this way, but my understanding is the fundamental desire behind them was to contain the vehicle and rapidly slow it down to a stop.

 

[RedSuinit]

Well I have never actually run into a guard rail so everything I think about them is due to what I have heard from others and seen. I have seen a few accidents where a car on the freeway got into a guard rail and the result was always something along the lines of the car coming to a complete stop in a few hundred feet, the point of impact having little deflection in the supporting posts and the posts leaning more and more as you progressed down the impact trail. The metail W bars were flattened and you could see where each poll had a bit of W bar wrapped around it (hard to describe but I think pretty much what you would imagine) essentially meaning that the support bar impacted the car head on, however the W bar kind of let the car slip along next to it a little to avoid just stopping the car dead or ripping pieces off.

I also had a CHP officer discuss this during a Drivers ed class back in High school. They showed a top down view of a car running into a guard rail at an angle and he explained it pretty much like I did. The car in the video seemed to support his explanation as you saw support posts pushed aside like a fullback running through a line of defenders, each one falling aside but slowing the FB down a bit.

Now I know new guard rails are constantly being proposed becuase the current W bar ones are considered not reliable enough, so it's possible that they don't always work this way, but my understanding is the fundamental desire behind them was to contain the vehicle and rapidly slow it down to a stop.

I can see that. from some of the video's that I have seen, (of guard rail tests mind, NOT real accidents) what you have explained seems to be the main result. However there have been a few where the cars pretty much just bounce off.

 

[Jay]

I am not sure exactly of tokyo, but the metal railings I come across here stateside are specifically designed to do two things:

Slow you down dramatically

Draw the car into the railing somewhat to prevent a richochet

If you look at how they are made, they are made of pliable metal that deforms as you hit it, that side of your car is slowed down dramatically and thus you pull towards the rail. As you pull towards it more and more you force the posts that hold teh rail up to bend outwards as you go by them. This greatly slows you down and the rail acts as a sort of ramp to keep the posts sliding off your fender rathe rthan stopping you cold, but still causing a lot of resistance in the process.

The reason they are designed this way is that it's assumed if you hit one, you are driving wrecklessly or have lost control and they need to stop you as quickly and safely as possible and prevent you from returning to the flow of traffic.

So realistically a metal barrier should drastically slow you down and suck you into it.

Yeah, if you go into them at a sharper angle (15+ degrees) with speed they deform and catch you, but if you come in at a shallow angle (5-10 degrees like wall riders do) they generally deflect or just have a inital deformity which isn't enough to catch, then if you just slide against them you will wall ride. At the shallow angle a deflection generally wont bounce you across the road anyway unless you break your steering/suspension and it steers you there. Plus shallower angles generally hit/bump the barriers with a larger surface area which leads to even less barrier deformity.

In GT1-5P though there is no deformation of walls or cars at all so they will just deflect you allow you to ride the wall, since the metal is smooth, adding throttle will allow you to accelerate while riding the wall unless you have a really low powered car that can't overpower the friction of smooth metal. Just making the rail a 'sticky wall' is just odd.


Newer cable type barriers are much better at catching shallow angles and create huge amound of friction.

 

[Pierced Lead]

When you have another resisting force acting, in this case the friction with the railing, you are supposed to slow down because the overall net force has decreased. In the GT5 demo the car kept moving at a constant speed (that too when it was turning), which shouldn't happen in real life.

Well, according to recent previews/interviews they say GT5's damage and collision physics have improved so hopefully that would solve things up when it comes to crashing into the railings.

 

[TokyoDrift]

Here we go again - people "worried" about something in the game! If you don't want to grind, don't do it. If you don't want people grinding in your on-line games, kick them out. I really don't see this as a big deal.

 

[RedBaron]

It's all about fact that if you have contact with the rail while doing 160 km/h, it should really upset your ride.

 

[amar212]

Forza Motorsport 2 had a GREAT collision physics which were probably the most convincing ever in the videogames.

Unfortunatly, Forza 3 dumbed-it-down so "wall grinding" is now part of the Forza too.

However, if GT5 really gives us something Kaz calls "Full Released Physics" than MAYBE we will have collisions like in FM2.

However, please notice that such were EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING in online, because even the SLIGHTEST touch would cause you to spin - as in real life.

So, from the GAMEPLAY point of view, inclusion of such an option isn't so rewarding.

 

[pricey2003]

I'm gonna reserve my judgement until the collision model is complete.

 

[phosphor112]

To be honest metal railings like the ones in the Tokyo track doesn't have a lot of friction, they're smooth and metal. If you came up to one in real life at a shallow angle and slid along it, apply the throttle and of course you will gain speed following it like a tram line, but the difference in real life is the railing and your car deform and damage where in GT games so far you can hit them hard at even steep angles and ride them where in real life the rail and you car would be toast.

Stone barriers like on a country road is different (Citta di Aria etc), you tend to dig into them and have huge friction (and major damage). Stone barriers should have more friction but it would be silly to have metal railings turn into "sticky walls".


So what I am saying is it is really mostly all about the damage model which we haven't seen yet for GT5.

Hmm, yeah, I never thought about those railings and what not, thought it would be awesome if that would be in the game (if not in GT6 =D )

 

[phosphor112]

Here we go again - people "worried" about something in the game! If you don't want to grind, don't do it. If you don't want people grinding in your on-line games, kick them out. I really don't see this as a big deal.

It's not about doing it on purpose. I don't think anyone here does it on purpose, it's just that sometimes you can take a turn incorrectly and instead of just skidding off of it at high speeds that it should do more than just damage the car (since damage is confirmed) it should slow down depending on angle, laterals, etc.

You saying "if you don't want to grind, don't do it" is exactly like when someone rams into a car on a turn and gets the advantage because of it. It happens some times. You don't pay attention, hit the brakes too late, bam, you hit a car.

 

[Gejost]

It's quite bad that even in the latest version they showed of GT5 it's still possible to gain speed by wall grinding. Things like this I don't understand.

 

[Gejost]

Here we go again - people "worried" about something in the game! If you don't want to grind, don't do it. If you don't want people grinding in your on-line games, kick them out. I really don't see this as a big deal.

This is a big deal. Something that should have been fixed a long time ago.

 

[Custer85]

[...]
However, please notice that such were EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING in online, because even the SLIGHTEST touch would cause you to spin - as in real life.
[...]

The slightest touch would not make a car spin. Thats one of the aspects i hated about the collision physics in Forza 2. Everytime you hit a wall in Forza 2 you would turn, the angle barely had anything to do with it. Sliding along the guardrails like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs2b5KJaLTk
or like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH18k4QYV8o
is impossible in Forza 2.
Hitting the wall without turning around was nearly impossible. Cars will turn at impact, when they were already turning on the track, or when the angle is that big that they hit the wall with the front, while "drifting" sideways.

Sliding along the guard rails like in Gran Turismo is possible, though when hitting a guardrail or wall head on would result in a spin in real life.

The GT5 demo at GC and TGS featured better collision physics than the prologue, but a indestructible car vs an indestructible wall will result in crashes like the ones we saw in the GC demo. The car vs car collision physics habe been vastly improved by the way...

Excuse my bad English, i hope you unterstand what i tried to say.

 

[MGR]

 

[Zer0]

This thread needs a bit of reality:

 

[Tornado]

Here we go again - people "worried" about something in the game! If you don't want to grind, don't do it. If you don't want people grinding in your on-line games, kick them out. I really don't see this as a big deal.

That really doesn't apply in this discussion. It goes heavily against the realism of the game that one can blast through even hairpin turns by wall riding much faster than one can actually take the turn correctly.

 

[Exorcet]

the SLIGHTEST touch would cause you to spin - as in real life.

So, from the GAMEPLAY point of view, inclusion of such an option isn't so rewarding.

Aside from being overdone, that doesn't sound bad at all. If it's realistic, include it IMO. In a sim, things should be drastically dumbed down for "gameplay". The fun comes from realism.

That really doesn't apply in this discussion. It goes heavily against the realism of the game that one can blast through even hairpin turns by wall riding much faster than one can actually take the turn correctly.

I can see where you're coming from. A driver prone to hitting a wall by accident will not get max realism. For a better driver, they might not really notice. But if only the poor drivers are unintentionally wall riding, it won't give them much of an advantage. The good drivers can just choose not to do it, or kick those who do. Even if everything is as realistic as possible, it doesn't mean the game will played realistically. Likewise, lack of realism (like no damage) doesn't guarantee there will be no attempt to avoid contact, etc.

I do think it should be fixed though.

 

[Spec M]

That really doesn't apply in this discussion. It goes heavily against the realism of the game that one can blast through even hairpin turns by wall riding much faster than one can actually take the turn correctly.

A simply logical and correct statement Toronado, I agree.👍

Nice video post Zer0, should clear people's perception up a bit.👍

 

[sejtur]

Wall grinding isn't possible online, you'll probably get your engine cut off. And with GT5 having damage, maybe something will happen to the behaviour of the car.

 

[Exorcet]

Wall grinding isn't possible online, you'll probably get your engine cut off. And with GT5 having damage, maybe something will happen to the behaviour of the car.

Seeing as GT5P's penalties were horrible, I plan on not using them if I can. People have found ways around the penalties. And don't forget racers who will drive with damage off if possible, they might not want cheating either.

 

[sejtur]

Seeing as GT5P's penalties were horrible, I plan on not using them if I can. People have found ways around the penalties. And don't forget racers who will drive with damage off if possible, they might not want cheating either.

Well I'll be driving with damage all the time, I think. All expert events should be with damage so I'm safe.