Hopeful the "grind along the wall physics" will change...

[Devedander]

Here we go again - people "worried" about something in the game! If you don't want to grind, don't do it. If you don't want people grinding in your on-line games, kick them out. I really don't see this as a big deal.

That logic does not apply here. This is not an option you can turn off or something you can just "not do". Contacting the guard rail is something that happens in real racing, it is part of it and eventually it is inevitable.

Like damage you can't just say "don't ever hit anything" because that's just not racing then... it will eventually come into play and the if it's not done reasonably right it will have a noteable impact on the outcome and experience.

So next time you try to underbrake someone, get wide and are carrying too much momentum into a turn and are heading for the guard rail, will you just sit there and say "Hmmm... no I just won't hit that guard rail" and magically it won't happen?

Sorry... this is a legit concern.

 

[sejtur]

That logic does not apply here. This is not an option you can turn off or something you can just "not do". Contacting the guard rail is something that happens in real racing, it is part of it and eventually it is inevitable.

Like damage you can't just say "don't ever hit anything" because that's just not racing then... it will eventually come into play and the if it's not done reasonably right it will have a noteable impact on the outcome and experience.

So next time you try to underbrake someone, get wide and are carrying too much momentum into a turn and are heading for the guard rail, will you just sit there and say "Hmmm... no I just won't hit that guard rail" and magically it won't happen?

Sorry... this is a legit concern.

Well, you can choose to brake and steer clear of the wall ofcourse. 👍

 

[vaioleto]

Grinding on walls/using other cars as brakes/using other cars as rails are all possible in real life. Watch the various top gear Trailer/van races. Those touring car champions grind on the railings all the time to keep from braking. The only unrealistic thing about GT is that your car doesn't take damage from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VJDIeeSdAE

Contrary to popular belief, your car doesn't explode and disintegrate into a cloud of death when you touch a rail as NFS or Grid will have you believe.

 

[HaylRayzor]

Newer cable type barriers are much better at catching shallow angles and create huge amound of friction.

They're also extremely efficient at dismembering motorcycle riders. But that's a bit off the topic...

If PD would just assess the end of the penalty from the LAST barrier touch it would end wall riding. As it is the 4 seconds starts at first contact and you are allowed to ride for 3.99 seconds with no further penalty. So as long as you're off the wall before the end of the 4 seconds you're good. If you know you'll have to serve 4 full seconds AFTER you finish your wall ride then it stops.

 

[Earth]

Example of what happens when you 'wall surf' at 150mph

I'm gonna reserve my judgement until the collision model is complete.

Might as well as we still haven't seen rollover or real time deformation that has been promised. To me that means what we've seen from TGS etc is nowhere near the final code

 

[iwantaporsche]

Example of what happens when you 'wall surf' at 150mph

Great find! Now that these videos prove that it is indeed possible to wall grind at high speed, we can move on purely to how it can be discouraged in multiplayer. I personally think that the damage model (if enabled) will take care of it, since the larger the force you exert on the wall (meaning the more you use it to your advantage) the more damage should being applied to your car. Progressively ruining your car's performance by wall riding more and more should be enough negative reinforcement to limit the effectiveness of the tactic in multiplayer.

 

[sejtur]

Great find! Now that these videos prove that it is indeed possible to wall grind at high speed, we can move on purely to how it can be discouraged in multiplayer. I personally think that the damage model (if enabled) will take care of it, since the larger the force you exert on the wall (meaning the more you use it to your advantage) the more damage should being applied to your car. Progressively ruining your car's performance by wall riding more and more should be enough negative reinforcement to limit the effectiveness of the tactic in multiplayer.

+ engine cut off for several seconds, it happens in Prologue too so why not in GT5 either? People have gotten around cutting corners and stuff like that, but touching a wall too hard will result in that also.

 

[Spec M]

Grinding on walls/using other cars as brakes/using other cars as rails are all possible in real life.

Uh.., yeah but usually with resulting in some pretty bad consequences, like penalties, injuries, death and destruction ...

Those touring car champions grind on the railings all the time to keep from braking.

What "touring car champions" are you refering to exactly. Surely not any FIA sanction. Why would any driver risk damaging his vehicle by piloting it into a rail or barrier to slow it down in oppose to simply applying the brakes.

That entire statement makes no since to me . Are you suggesting that you would collide with another object to slow your vehicle down instead of using your brakes? If so let me be sure not to allow you in any of my future online session in GT5.

The only unrealistic thing about GT is that your car doesn't take damage from it.

Theres no damage in GT period. Soon there will be and im pretty sure if you collide with a rail or wall you'll notice it, physically and cosmetically 👍...

Contrary to popular belief, your car doesn't explode and disintegrate into a cloud of death when you touch a rail as NFS or Grid will have you believe.

Well it all depends on the speed, angle and manner of the way you collide with the wall, barrier or rail. Hitting at 30mph may not be too bad, but you're still going to cause some damage and that may just be enough to ruin your race. Colliding with anything at 60mph and over can easily be catostrophic... Logically.

 

[vaioleto]

Uh.., yeah but usually with resulting in some pretty bad consequences, like penalties, injuries, death and destruction ...

[/b]

What "touring car champions" are you refering to exactly. Surely not any FIA sanction. Why would any driver risk damaging his vehicle by piloting it into a rail or barrier to slow it down in oppose to simply applying the brakes.

That entire statement makes no since to me . Are you suggesting that you would collide with another object to slow your vehicle down instead of using your brakes? If so let me be sure not to allow you in any of my future online session in GT5.



Theres no damage in GT period. Soon there will be and im pretty sure if you collide with a rail or wall you'll notice it, physically and cosmetically 👍...




Well it all depends on the speed, angle and manner of the way you collide with the wall, barrier or rail. Hitting at 30mph may not be too bad, but you're still going to cause some damage and that may just be enough to ruin your race. Colliding with anything at 60mph and over can easily be catostrophic... Logically.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

 

[Earth]

Great find! Now that these videos prove that it is indeed possible to wall grind at high speed, we can move on purely to how it can be discouraged in multiplayer. I personally think that the damage model (if enabled) will take care of it, since the larger the force you exert on the wall (meaning the more you use it to your advantage) the more damage should being applied to your car. Progressively ruining your car's performance by wall riding more and more should be enough negative reinforcement to limit the effectiveness of the tactic in multiplayer.

Carl Edwards compared his wall surfing move to a game, starts at :50

 

[Spec M]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

Just trying to make sense of your statement.

 

[IsmokeGT]

I think the Carl Edwards move might be taken the wrong way. The concrete "safer barrier" walls are very different that a metal guardrail. I think a guardrail will slow you down a lot more, and inflict a lot more damage. Either way, no penalty should be assesed for hitting walls if damage is turned on and the damage and physics are modelled correctly.

 

[vaioleto]

Just trying to make sense of your statement.

Which makes perfect sense...

 

[Devedander]

Well, you can choose to brake and steer clear of the wall ofcourse. 👍

I guess you can also always choose to not finish behind the first place car and thus always win

Obviously accidental things are by definition things you didn't choose to avoid.

 

[nasanu]

Wall riding the types of barriers that sit beside tracks is totally realistic physics. It does happen from time to time in real touring car racing.

But it does need to be recognised by the game and punished. Wall riding had been a problem in every online game I have ever played to this day. Most developers dont see it as a problem when the leader boards are filled with cheats because they dont usually see doing it as cheating as long as the code is not being broken. The PGR devs ignored complaints in their forums for years over 4 games.

PD has shown that they do care a little about cheating, but they dont keep a close eye on it. I liked the penalties in GT5P, I found them to be fair most of the time. They just needed to be stricter with them on tracks like daytona.

 

[iwantaporsche]

Carl Edwards compared his wall surfing move to a game, starts at :50

Ha! You weren't kidding!

He gave it a shot because he had no other options and it worked in video games. That's absolutely hysterical! Well, now we know that in real life it slows you down too much, even at full throttle.

 

[vaioleto]

Ha! You weren't kidding!

He gave it a shot because he had no other options and it worked in video games. That's absolutely hysterical! Well, now we know that in real life it slows you down too much, even at full throttle.

As it does in GT4, GT5P, GTPSP... if you tried to grind on the wall around the oval track, you'll slow down and the other cars will fly right past you.

People make it seem as if you don't lose any speed/accelerate when you hit a rail in GT, which is pure BS.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Wall riding the types of barriers that sit beside tracks is totally realistic physics. It does happen from time to time in real touring car racing, but it does need to be recognised by the game and punished.

You are right about being punished for hitting/riding walls. The flaw in your statement is that you want UNrealistic penalties, as opposed to true to life penalties. The video Earth posted (that I watched live) is proof that walls can not help you in NASCAR. Metal barriers, found in other forms of motorsports, will do more damage than concrete, so there is no way you will ride a metal barrier and benefit in the real world.

Since this game is "the Real Driving Simulator" we, as a community of fans, expect the creators to create a game that lives up to that name. They will do just that. The advantage you gain by hitting a wall will be out weighed by the damage you car will receive, and the amount your car slows... I hope

 

[iwantaporsche]

As it does in GT4, GT5P, GTPSP... if you tried to grind on the wall around the oval track, you'll slow down and the other cars will fly right past you.

People make it seem as if you don't lose any speed/accelerate when you hit a rail in GT, which is pure BS.

Absolutely. That why I mentioned earlier that I believe that the lack of damage from grinding is really the only thing that currently makes it a profitable tactic in the middle of a race. If doing so without too much force slows you down, and slamming into it severely damages your car, then you would never have a positive outcome from trying to ride them. Their friction quotient might need to be increased slightly, but otherwise with damage I think that the acceleration penalty for grinding might no longer even be necessary. Cutting the track on the other hand...

 

[sejtur]

I guess you can also always choose to not finish behind the first place car and thus always win

Obviously accidental things are by definition things you didn't choose to avoid.

Or become good enough so you don't have to wallgrind and finish first anyway. I never wallgrinded in GT4 so it won't be an "issue" for me. For my online opinion, check my earlier posts.

 

[Jay]

Well, now we know that in real life it slows you down too much, even at full throttle.

At the speeds they're going of course, it requires most of the engine power just to keep the speed up at the pace they're already going without touching walls.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

I hope we will see the fixed walls receiving damage, maybe tyre marks, paint lines & chunks of concrete getting chipped away. As with the tyre marks on the track, track side damage should stay there during the whole race.

 

[nasanu]

You are right about being punished for hitting/riding walls. The flaw in your statement is that you want UNrealistic penalties, as opposed to true to life penalties. The video Earth posted (that I watched live) is proof that walls can not help you in NASCAR. Metal barriers, found in other forms of motorsports, will do more damage than concrete, so there is no way you will ride a metal barrier and benefit in the real world.

Since this game is "the Real Driving Simulator" we, as a community of fans, expect the creators to create a game that lives up to that name. They will do just that. The advantage you gain by hitting a wall will be out weighed by the damage you car will receive, and the amount your car slows... I hope

The angle the guy went into the wall at was far too severe. If he didn't dive down low then come up into the wall he would have been far more successful. And you do very much need unrealistic penalties in games. Even if a simulation in terms of physics is 100% accurate, you will never be subject to all the laws, rules and regulations that in real life drivers are. In a game I can do anything at all in full knowledge next race everything is reset. In real life I could die, lose money or lose my racing licence. These things keep real drivers in check, we need something else.


I highly doubt we are going to get the damage model we want for all cars in GT5. But even if we do, there will always be an option to turn it off. When this option is off you cant stop someone from wall riding no matter how accurate the physics. In time trials especially there will always be someone spends hours figuring out where to hit the wall for the best bounce out of the turn. Thankfully developers can plan for it, IF they want to.

 

[IsmokeGT]

The angle the guy went into the wall was far too severe.

If you watch the video closely, or any NASCAR race for that matter, you will see guys barely brushing the wall. Carl Edwards brushes the wall several times before he hits the wall in the last turn, and it does NOT benefit him in any way.

I wont speak for other forms of motorsports, but in NASCAR there is no way that touching the wall will benefit your lap times. At 30 seconds into the video you see Cousin Carl brush the wall, and he loses time to the leader. Thus, if the physics are correct in GT5 there is no need for penalties, damage or not, in that part of the game.

You are right in saying the risk people take in video games is far beyond what real life drivers take, but taking risk will not win the race. So, I prefer the penalties that drivers get in real life; damage, loss of time on the track, and losing the race. Any two of those real world penalties will keep drivers "in check."

 

[phosphor112]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks it needs to be fixed. Honestly, all they need to do is change the friction of the body of the cars and the possible things the car can grind on. It really is a simple thing to change.

 

[nasanu]

it does NOT benefit him in any way.

Did he have to brake?

You are not thinking straight. Firstly ovals have very gentle corners. There is really no need to wall ride on them, and to my knowledge nobody does this online. Wall riding is most effective on very sharp corners where sticky walls will not help at all. In many cases the idea is to bounce off walls rather than ride them. But anyway in the video you are talking about the driver did not need to brake, that is the advantage he got. How much time would he have lost if he did brake enough to not hit the wall? He didnt use the wall to try to gain a place, he used to wall to limit the damage of his mistake when he went far too deep. It worked quite well.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Did he have to brake?

You are not thinking straight. Firstly ovals have very gentle corners. There is really no need to wall ride on them, and to my knowledge nobody does this online. Wall riding is most effective on very sharp corners where sticky walls will not help at all. In many cases the idea is to bounce off walls rather than ride them. But anyway in the video you are talking about the driver did not need to brake, that is the advantage he got. How much time would he have lost if he did brake enough to not hit the wall? He didnt use the wall to try to gain a place, he used to wall to limit the damage of his mistake when he went far too deep. It worked quite well.

Did he brake? I dont know, but I know he lost time to the leader.
You think he didnt try and gain a position? He explicitly said he was going for the win.
You think him smashing the wall worked well? I heard him say he was sorry for tearing up his race car to his team. If it worked well then he would have gotten the result he wanted. (Ill help you out here, he wanted to win.)
You say I am not thinking straight, but you are the one that wants some magical force to slow your car down instead of having real world consequences in "the Real Driving Simulator."
Lastly, you said the idea is to "bounce off the walls." This is ludicrous. People do that because of crap collision physics and no damage! If they change those then nobody will be able to "bounce" off walls.

 

[Spec M]

I think people are over analyzing this whole thing.

If you come into contact with a wall or rail, logically (at least to some) you will suffer a loss of momentum.
In laymen's terms you WILL slow down. Are the real life vids not convincing enough?
I assume a first hand experience will only guide some to the light.

Edit: I though this vid was a pefect example of how horribly unrealistic the environment collision physics are in oppose to real life.

This vid reminds me of Ridge Racer and Project Gotham (both good games but far from sims).



When contacting a wall even at low speeds their should be a more dramatic drop in speed and stability.

The entire factor of how violent the impact is, is not there. Thus taking away one of the main important factors.., 'consequence'.

 

[Tornado]

As it does in GT4, GT5P, GTPSP... if you tried to grind on the wall around the oval track, you'll slow down and the other cars will fly right past you.

DS2 + Rubber band + Motegi Speedway (and the older GT3 equivalent) = Easy win.

I've actually found that your laptimes go down for the GT4 endurance race at the track if you just start wall-riding the whole track compared to actually taking the corners on green tires (and goes with the bonus that you never need to pit). The damage engine will likely make it so it isn't worth exploiting (assuming it is implemented in a way that takes such into account), but the problem would still be there.

 

[Jay]

I think people are over analyzing this whole thing.

If you come into contact with a wall or rail, logically (at least to some) you will suffer a loss of momentum.
In laymen's terms you WILL slow down. Are the real life vids not convincing enough?
I assume a first hand experience will only guide some to the light.

Edit: I though this vid was a pefect example of how horribly unrealistic the environment collision physics are in oppose to real life.

This vid reminds me of Ridge Racer and Project Gotham (both good games but far from sims).



When contacting a wall even at low speeds their should be a more dramatic drop in speed and stability.

The entire factor of how violent the impact is, is not there. Thus taking away one of the main important factors.., 'consequence'.

Just watching the first part of the video, the first wall he hits he is travelling 220km/h and after the deflection his speed gets dropped to 160km/h all the while he was on 100% throttle, next wall he is at around 160km/h and drops to below 100km/h still on full throttle. Yes there is a fair bit of speed loss in the video even at while WOT.

The only thing really going to prevent happy bouncers is damage. Something we have to sit tight and wait to find out about in the coming months.