How in the Frank Bruno did Forza III do it?

[crazedmodder]

Now why would you go and say something like that knowing some of the people who frequent this part of the forum?

But, I'll back you up by saying the following: The 360 also has the better GPU. But Cell (purely from an PC enthusiast/uber geek perspective) has the upper hand when raw processing power comes into play, mostly because it can be dedicated to computational and/or graphical tasks.

lol I had a feeling it would spark controversy but people really shouldn't say things if they don't have any experience with said systems or understand how they work. People who aren't excessively biased or actually want to learn will hopefully read those posts, then read our posts and go find out for themselves what is true.

The people defending the PS3 vehemently have made up their minds and I won't argue with them, people can like what they want but I just wish they wouldn't spread opinions as fact.

Also let me just say that more cores does not necessarily make a more powerful system. A system is comprised of many parts, not just the central processing unit. Even then there are many other factors and ease of programming does play a factor in how powerful a system is, just like better tires on a slower car can let you set a better lap.

 

[Strittan]

How did they do it?

'69 Camaro in Forza 3:

'69 Camaro in Gran Turismo 5:

... that's how.

 

[gtracedriver]

To some extent, so have Polyphony Digital.

Not really but everyone can have their opinion on it. IMHO GT has most accurate cars, more realistic physics and better gfx of course lol

Half-assed no. Rushed....yes. They were given a ridiculous time-frame to get Forza 3 out and made some poor decisions but there's no way you can call a developer that puts out 3 decent games in 4 years lazy.

Which ever way you look at it. I will post this again
http://www.gamereactor.dk/billeder/?textid=75085&id=193645



Forza3 = ungraded Forza2. I do not consider it realistic. However it was good racing game never the less and many like/love it. They got good reception too. But it is not GT

In GT if I were to drive, say SLS AMG at nurburgring. I get more satisfaction. ecause makers of this game just don't make games, they are cars lovers and motorsport fan themselves. They try to make it realistic and try to live up to their standard not just for $ sake. Sure they may not live up to all the fans expectation. But still I have more respect for these guys 👍

 

[Devedander]

However, first party PS3 games shine a little better.

Sometimes they do... but there are some real 360 lookers too...

It's always been my contention that the Sony platforms are harder to program for and require the devs to really get more intimate with the system to know what they are doing. This leads to a higher chance of finding and using optimizations taylored to their needs.

I have always felt the xbox provided a very good dev kit up front that meant most of what programmers needed was basically available so they used the prebuilt stuff rather than creating basic functions from scratch. This makes life a lot easier on them, assures better compliance but also means they aren't necessarily using the optimal code for their exact need.

I think of it as (back in the day maybe more accurately) C(note not ++ to really drive the point home) vs VB. I could crank out a decent and pretty program in VB in a few minutes. It took me hours in C. But if I was going to bother to do it in C it was all going to be done exactly how I felt best down to the letter. In VB I might just use a tool that gets the job done but carries more overhead than absolutely necessary.

Probably should have used COBAL or something instead of C to drive the point home more but you get the idea.

It's not that I COULDN'T go and do it better in VB, but rather than was it worth the trouble for the little bit extra gain whent he tools to get it done were right in front of me.

That's how I feel about it anyway and I am certainly no expert.

 

[Akira AC]

I've just read 12 pages of this thread and got bored.

I'm just amazed, This argument is stupid.

Turn10 had:

Almost double the staff working on it
A 3-4 year development time
A game engine designed for the 360 to act as a base (Of which we saw few major improvements - The physics still bear similarities to Forza 2)
Lots of cars that could be ported and upscaled from the previous game, a lot of which have had inaccurately implemented interiors as some people have pointed out.

PD had:

5-6 years of development
Around 180 staff working on it, at it's peak. Supposedly less than that before they opened up the online server room/building area.
No game engine to start with - They started from scratch, on a console that is notoriously difficult to develop for due to the nature of the cell processor and how much it differs from a conventional hardware setup.

They set the graphics bar too high when they set out. They ended up with only 200 models, which are untouchable this gen and next. They are future proof. They have also built a graphics and physics engine that is probably unrivalled on the Playstation 3, and will act as a base for GT6.

As a result of their poor time management, they are using older models for the standard cars. They led us to believe that all cars would have the cockpit view, intentionally or not, this was wrong of them. So 4/5 of the cars in GT5 are missing a feature that we all took for granted since Prologue was released in 2007. There is no denying it, it is a huge mistake on PDs part, and will almost certainly damage game reviews and potential sales. It is inexcusable.

As can be seen from this poll, a lot of people are going to be disappointed.

But, are any of you going to boycott the game because of this? I won't.



The cell processor has 8 cores, 1 PPE and 7 SPEs. The PPE acts as a central hub, converting the SPE processes into the relevant calculations needed. The PPE's purpose is to enable the 7 SPEs to work correctly, it does not itself, contribute to any calculations required for gaming or the operating system. Hence why of the remaining 7, 6 are for gaming and the 7th is for the OS. This makes it very versatile in one sense, but for old-school/PC game programmers it is a nightmare, as they have the split all the graphical cycles between the Cell processor and the graphics chip, and I would imagine it would get very tedious trying to get the most out of the SPEs.

If you maximise the potential of the hardware, the PS3 will offer higher quality graphics at a higher resolution and framerate. The Xbox 360's trump card is Anti-aliasing, which can actually make up for shortfalls elsewhere.

Though, you already know all of this I ike to just 'ignore' the disabled core in the cell



Please, comparing poorly ported cross platform games is not a good measure of the hardware performance of one console over another. If anything, it makes the less powerful console appear superior, because they use the less powerful one as the benchmark and then port it over, often dumbing it down so they don't have to make big changes to the engine to utilise the vastly different hardware.

so that is why so hard to program in PS3,the Nvidia Cg language is structured to work with only cores ,not cells, making impossible to take all 6 processors advantages,of course the normal 3D modelling app will not configure pixel shadering and and 2d vector graphics to the cells,which make it more complicated the job of taking the 3D design into full usage of CPU capabilities,so that mean that they have to create from scratch the dev tools that were more suitable for cell processor for the ps3
that stuff takes time,real time

 

[RedSuinit]

My question is, do you really think that 110 employees can out-do the work of 300+ along with work that was outsourced to other companies? Turn10 have pumped out ~500 cars for Forza 3. Polyphony Digital (according to their numbers) have pumped out over 200 PREMIUM model cars (that have far superior detail to anything that Turn10 has made) so slightly less than half of what Forza 3 has in it. But think about what ELSE Polyphony digital has done BESIDES just pump out cars.

Day to Night transitions: Can be done in real time OR sped up <- This means the speed of the transition can be controlled by the USER. I can't think of ANY other game that does this.

Tire smoke, and debris: Looks fantastic.

A real time deformation and damage model: Another feature that no other game does.

Heavily improved copllision physics: If you have noticed this, your eyes are not open.

Given us 3 new world tracks (That we know of) done with even the most intricate details modeled. Do any of you have any idea how long this probably took? They're NOT GODS! They only have 110 employees, and they all work A LOT. They have created TONS of content in 5 years. Yet all you people can do is complain and demand more. Why are we complaining about the standard model cars?! They have a massive library of cars that they have modeled down to the very SMALLEST details, and they are using the original modeling files for these standard cars in GT5. They are NOT just up-scaling the models directly from GT4s files. You can tell that by watching the standard vehicles videos. If you CAN'T tell that there's a difference, I pity you.

 

[JDMKING13]

My question is, do you really think that 110 employees can out-do the work of 300+ along with work that was outsourced to other companies? Turn10 have pumped out ~500 cars for Forza 3. Polyphony Digital (according to their numbers) have pumped out over 200 PREMIUM model cars (that have far superior detail to anything that Turn10 has made) so slightly less than half of what Forza 3 has in it. But think about what ELSE Polyphony digital has done BESIDES just pump out cars.

Day to Night transitions: Can be done in real time OR sped up <- This means the speed of the transition can be controlled by the USER. I can't think of ANY other game that does this.

Tire smoke, and debris: Looks fantastic.

A real time deformation and damage model: Another feature that no other game does.

Heavily improved copllision physics: If you have noticed this, your eyes are not open.

Given us 3 new world tracks (That we know of) done with even the most intricate details modeled. Do any of you have any idea how long this probably took? They're NOT GODS! They only have 110 employees, and they all work A LOT. They have created TONS of content in 5 years. Yet all you people can do is complain and demand more. Why are we complaining about the standard model cars?! They have a massive library of cars that they have modeled down to the very SMALLEST details, and they are using the original modeling files for these standard cars in GT5. They are NOT just up-scaling the models directly from GT4s files. You can tell that by watching the standard vehicles videos. If you CAN'T tell that there's a difference, I pity you.

^^^ Words from an intelligent individual 👍

 

[Akira AC]

And this also makes me think about the Day/night transitions,a lot of people are speculating about if there is it going to be Day/night transition in all the tracks, I hope so and what they did on E3 was show that they could apply lights and shadows in a dynamic way that they will work with debris and dust, I hope that they make the city circuits with these feature(I'm asking a lot)but yeah I hope that I can see the sun rising in the Tokyo circuit,and just maybe look at the Special Stage Route 11 at day time

 

[Terronium-12]

Well, I have yet to play a 360 game that looks anything near the visual quality of Uncharted 2, Killzone 2 or God of War 3.

I don't know much about the tech mumbo jumbo. I just rely on my own two eyes.

The reason for that is simple (from a technical standpoint) the 360 has yet to be pushed to the limits both the CPU and GPU are capable of. Someone whom was obsessed with the X1800/1900 series of ATi cards, I can tell you that that the 360's GPU can render scenes the PS3's (7800) could also render, but would ultimately lose ground to (bottleneck, or just flat out stutter) as more and more processing tasks are being rendered. However, thanks to the CBE (Cell) much of this can be negated by dedicating one or two of the SPEs (One is more then enough) to aid in graphical tasks. That's why the PS3 would appear to have better visuals.

The main thing here is that console games are purpose-built to utilize the advantages of both consoles, whether they be collectively (multi-platform) or individually (exclusives). Take Crysis for example, unless CryEngine 2 was purposely built for both the 360 and PS3 (read: a modified CE2 engine, NOT the same one used for the PC version of the game) it wouldn't be rendered in 1920x1080 on either system because the game would then become unplayable when most of the heavier action occurs, it would more likely be optimized for 720p across both consoles. Anyway, it might be hard to believe but the 360 has yet to be pushed from a hardware perspective.

 

[Luminis]

The reason for that is simple (from a technical standpoint) the 360 has yet to be pushed to the limits both the CPU and GPU are capable of.

I guess that depends on who you ask, actually. Turn 10 did state that they had to limit the amount of tire smoke, dust etc. on Forza 3 due to the fact that the Xbox360 couldn't manage to actually work on the physics of eight cars while being forced to process such details. Of course, they did so to point out how impressive FM3's physics engine is, but still...

Of course, the software might still get more optimized, but I doubt another increase in graphics like FM2 -> FM3 would be possible, if they're already at the end of the rope, hardware wise.

 

[Earth]

why on earth (no pun intended) would you need to have separate textures??..its all about the lighting in changing time of day....textures will be exactly the same...its just changing the light source...or in the case of going to night...essentially removing the main source of light and replacing it with headlights and such...

absolutely not need for different textures for day and night...

PGR4 developer on day and night tracks in their game:

"You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD."

Source

Maybe its not required to have separate textures but it seems that was the route the PGR4 team wanted to take but couldnt because of the DVD's storage limitations.

 

[Omnis]

As long as GT5 has cupholders, I'm cool.

 

[Terronium-12]

I guess that depends on who you ask, actually. Turn 10 did state that they had to limit the amount of tire smoke, dust etc. on Forza 3 due to the fact that the Xbox360 couldn't manage to actually work on the physics of eight cars while being forced to process such details. Of course, they did so to point out how impressive FM3's physics engine is, but still...

Of course, the software might still get more optimized, but I doubt another increase in graphics like FM2 -> FM3 would be possible, if they're already at the end of the rope, hardware wise.

The 360 does have it's limits, and it's one of the disadvantages I spoke of earlier...but commonly (even in the PC scene) developers do tend to stretch the truth to make the game (and the relative engine that hosts said game) appear to be more authentic then their previous efforts have shown. While I can't disprove Dan/Turn 10 of those claims as I am obviously not on their programming team...that bit is left up in the air. However, if Microsoft's gaming division would ease up and give them a little more time to develop and even optimize their own ideas I don't doubt that Forza could, at the very least, have 10 cars on all tracks at the same time without any real consequences to speak of.

But, when you're being rushed to release great games bi-yearly you're going to have to make compromises that you don't particularly care for.

 

[Lil Ape]

This

Anyways it is not about PS3 and 360. Turn10 in so many years have made half-assed game

And so has PD. Their games have been half assed ever since the first GT back in '97. You seem to forget that GT has never had skid marks, reverse lights, or damage until now. Forza has had all that since day one. Plus they have used the same tire screeching sounds for 11 years and now 80% of GT5's car lineup are terrible GT4 ports while probably only half of FM3's cars are ports. And the bad thing about all these GT4 ports is that now we're gonna get the same terrible vacuum cleaner car audio we had in '04

 

[Akira AC]

I guess that depends on who you ask, actually. Turn 10 did state that they had to limit the amount of tire smoke, dust etc. on Forza 3 due to the fact that the Xbox360 couldn't manage to actually work on the physics of eight cars while being forced to process such details. Of course, they did so to point out how impressive FM3's physics engine is, but still...

Of course, the software might still get more optimized, but I doubt another increase in graphics like FM2 -> FM3 would be possible, if they're already at the end of the rope, hardware wise.

if they change the engine(or complete rebuild it)the might squeeze a 16 cars race for FM3,of course the as I'm sure you know the 3D models don't take a mayor roll,the problem is the calculation so more cars=less number of panels to be damaged(because the engine cant keep all the calculation),but by the time they manage to take all the panel damage and deformation(they already did that with the tires)it wont be necesary because a real car damage also have panels to be deform and a limited panels by design,and finally a crash impact also have linear calculations(well that is what volvo say )

 

[alucard0712]

8 out of 10 multiplatform games look better on 360. However 1st party games seem to look a bit better on PS3. Also 1st party game reviews have scored PS3 games higher as group than MS 1st party games.

Exactly what I'm talking about.Xbox easer to program.

 

[gtracedriver]

And so has PD. Their games have been half assed ever since the first GT back in '97. You seem to forget that GT has never had skid marks, reverse lights, or damage until now. Forza has had all that since day one. Plus they have used the same tire screeching sounds for 11 years and now 80% of GT5's car lineup are terrible GT4 ports while probably only have of FM3's cars are ports. And the bad thing about all these GT4 ports is that now we're gonna get the same terrible vacuum cleaner car audio we had in '04

They never cared about those things too much but at least the cars, tracks, physics are good and that is most important apart from nice eye candy. I like GT because of these things. There are many racing games that do other things better I know.

Port of GT4 is not same as you think

 

[Luminis]

But, when you're being rushed to release great games bi-yearly you're going to have to make compromises that you don't particularly care for.

Anyways, I guess it's save to assume that, if Turn 10 are reaching the Xbox's limitations, it's not going to be a common feat amongst developers to push the Box any further. They reached the point where only better optimization can get them better results, which, in the end, means that the Xbox360 has been pushed to it's limits hardware wise, no matter how you look about it.

However, I'm rather sure that we'll be seeing the next Xbox way before the Playstation 4, so Gran Turismo will probably have to compete with that kind of stuff sooner or later. But until then, I doubt there's anything that's capable of matching GT's premium cars in terms of detail and overall graphics.

if they change the engine(or complete rebuild it)the might squeeze a 16 cars race for FM3,of course the as I'm sure you know the 3D models don't take a mayor roll,the problem is the calculation so more cars=less number of panels to be damaged(because the engine cant keep all the calculation),but by the time they manage to take all the panel damage and deformation(they already did that with the tires)it wont be necesary because a real car damage also have panels to be deform and a limited panels by design,and finally a crash impact also have linear calculations(well that is what volvo say )

Dunno whether I actually got your point, but I doubt T10 is going to compromise on the driving physics to get more cars onto the track. In fact, I hope they don't.

 

[Metfanant]

PGR4 developer on day and night tracks in their game:

"You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD."

Source

Maybe its not required to have separate textures but it seems that was the route the PGR4 team wanted to take but couldnt because of the DVD's storage limitations.

the only thing i can think of...

they mention the cities in particular...It all depends on how they do their lighting...For example the lights coming out of windows in buildings and such. If they are not dynamic lights (i assume they would not be)...Then i guess yes, they would need to texture the buildings with windows that look like light is coming out of them..

 

[Seismica]

The reason for that is simple (from a technical standpoint) the 360 has yet to be pushed to the limits both the CPU and GPU are capable of. Someone whom was obsessed with the X1800/1900 series of ATi cards, I can tell you that that the 360's GPU can render scenes the PS3's (7800) could also render, but would ultimately lose ground to (bottleneck, or just flat out stutter) as more and more processing tasks are being rendered. However, thanks to the CBE (Cell) much of this can be negated by dedicating one or two of the SPEs (One is more then enough) to aid in graphical tasks. That's why the PS3 would appear to have better visuals.

The main thing here is that console games are purpose-built to utilize the advantages of both consoles, whether they be collectively (multi-platform) or individually (exclusives). Take Crysis for example, unless CryEngine 2 was purposely built for both the 360 and PS3 (read: a modified CE2 engine, NOT the same one used for the PC version of the game) it wouldn't be rendered in 1920x1080 on either system because the game would then become unplayable when most of the heavier action occurs, it would more likely be optimized for 720p across both consoles. Anyway, it might be hard to believe but the 360 has yet to be pushed from a hardware perspective.

👍

Interesting you should mention the Cry2 engine. It looks a lot worse than the Cry engine, and it's physics calculations have been oversimplified etc. There are demonstrations on youtube showing how big the difference is.

It just shows how poor these consoles are compared to a high end PC (Or rather, it shows how outdated the consoles are).

And so has PD. Their games have been half assed ever since the first GT back in '97. You seem to forget that GT has never had skid marks, reverse lights, or damage until now. Forza has had all that since day one. Plus they have used the same tire screeching sounds for 11 years and now 80% of GT5's car lineup are terrible GT4 ports while probably only half of FM3's cars are ports. And the bad thing about all these GT4 ports is that now we're gonna get the same terrible vacuum cleaner car audio we had in '04

Wrong. Only the models were a simple port (As Famine has stated many times, the GT4 models were downscaled versions of the ones PD actually created - The standard cars are derived from the original models). The technical data for the physics engine is new, and whilst the raw sound samples may not have changed, the improvement in the sounds is not in how they record them. The sounds will be just as good as the premium cars.

Exactly what I'm talking about.Xbox easer to program.

Because there were already developer tools out there that the Xbox 360 hardware was compatible with. It's hardware infrastructure is almost exactly the same as a PC.

 

[Terronium-12]

Anyways, I guess it's save to assume that, if Turn 10 are reaching the Xbox's limitations, it's not going to be a common feat amongst developers to push the Box any further. They reached the point where only better optimization can get them better results, which, in the end, means that the Xbox360 has been pushed to it's limits hardware wise, no matter how you look about it.

However, I'm rather sure that we'll be seeing the next Xbox way before the Playstation 4, so Gran Turismo will probably have to compete with that kind of stuff sooner or later. But until then, I doubt there's anything that's capable of matching GT's premium cars in terms of detail and overall graphics.

Sounds more like a bottleneck then anything else, which is kind of the same...but you're being limited by something. In this particular situation I'd suggest that the GPU is the bottleneck here. It's the price anyone pays for being the first on the market; you end up becoming a proverbial guinea pig for the other guys. It happened last generation (with the Xbox being the most capable console) and it's happened this generation as well (we all know what the most capable console is). This isn't to disagree with you, but hopefully come next generation Microsoft goes back to Intel for use of one of their MA's. (microarchitecture). The Pentium III the original used was something straight out of a bin, so to speak. Both Xbox's have a wealth in common with PC's (as has already been mentioned) and if Microsoft maintains that advantage (which I honestly can't imagine otherwise considering that their primary market is the PC) who knows how good the next Xbox can be.

I'm actually looking forward to the next wave as I'm certain both are going to adopt multi-GPU platforms which is going to be, well, awesome. I doubt MS and Nvidia will ever work together again after they both tried to screw one another, so Nvidia may permanently be in the Sony camp, and ATi in the MS camp - which is harmonic in and of itself...considering all four are constantly at each others necks.

 

[McLaren]

Anyways, I guess it's save to assume that, if Turn 10 are reaching the Xbox's limitations, it's not going to be a common feat amongst developers to push the Box any further. They reached the point where only better optimization can get them better results, which, in the end, means that the Xbox360 has been pushed to it's limits hardware wise, no matter how you look about it.

Now, see, what exactly is Turn10 reaching the limits of? Content? Graphics? That huge number of calculations the engine can supposedly run at once?

I really don't think Turn10 is pushing the Xbox 360 limits at all, more-so, their limits on how to develop with it. I've been seeing a lot of games that seem to be doing things much more demanding of the Xbox 360 than Forza.

Dunno whether I actually got your point, but I doubt T10 is going to compromise on the driving physics to get more cars onto the track. In fact, I hope they don't.

They won't. Forza 3 originally wanted to have 12 cars on track, but knocked the number down to 8 for the physics engine.

 

[tinram]

How did they do it?

'69 Camaro in Forza 3:

'69 Camaro in Gran Turismo 5:

... that's how.

good answer,

And one more thing, the last time i checked cars did not way 10 pounds and was made of metalic clay, cause apparently the damage/collision physics in forza thinks it is. And yes, i did play forza for a couple of weeks, i had to return my XBOX ( i bought it just because of forza 3 hype ) and thankfully i just borrowed forza 3 from my friend.

I had XBOX with a cockpit and fanatec wheel, this would have been the best way to try forza 3.

 

[Luminis]

In this particular situation I'd suggest that the GPU is the bottleneck here.

I'd rather go with either CPU or maybe RAM, seeing that the most problematic thing on Forza 3 was the physics, but in the end, it doesn't matter at all

I'm actually looking forward to the next wave as I'm certain both are going to adopt multi-GPU platforms which is going to be, well, awesome. I doubt MS and Nvidia will ever work together again after they both tried to screw one another, so Nvidia may permanently be in the Sony camp, and ATi in the MS camp - which is harmonic in and of itself...considering all four are constantly at each others necks.

Well, considering that ATi has merged with AMD, getting an Intel CPU might be out of the picture if MS wants to stick with ATi GPUs, which would be pretty sucky, imho. I could imagine AMD trying to 'force' MS to run their console with an AMD CPU.

But there's no doubt about MS releasing the next Xbox before Sony's next PS, that's for sure. The next gen will a repetition of what we've seen with the current one, I'd guess.

And Nintendo will still be milking the casual gaming cash cow by luring soccer moms towards 'gaming'...

Now, see, what exactly is Turn10 reaching the limits of? Content? Graphics? That huge number of calculations the engine can supposedly run at once?

Considering they were specifically mentioning the amount of calculations needed for Forza's physics engine, I'd have to go with the latter.

I really don't think Turn10 is pushing the Xbox 360 limits at all, more-so, their limits on how to develop with it. I've been seeing a lot of games that seem to be doing things much more demanding of the Xbox 360 than Forza.

Sorry for sounding a bit, well, rough on this one, but don't you think that T10's words would be a little bit more of a reliable source on the Xbox's limits than what you think is demanding a lot and what's not? Furthermore, you probably can't even compare the kind of strain Forza's physics are putting on the Xbox with anything that's not a racing sim, so... Yeah, what would those things be, that are more demanding?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Heheh, "How the Frank Drebin did Forza do it?"

Nice. I saw that movie the other night, waiting for the Canadian Grand Prix. Wasn't as funny as I remember it being, though.

 

[trk29]

How did they do it?

'69 Camaro in Forza 3:

'69 Camaro in Gran Turismo 5:

... that's how.

Not to take anything away from GT but you should have posted a picture of a forza car in the show room. The forza pic is gameplay and the GT pic is not.

 

[Spagetti69]

Not to take anything away from GT but you should have posted a picture of a forza car in the show room. The forza pic is gameplay and the GT pic is not.

Yeah and the forza one holds up pretty good.

 

[trk29]

Heres a better pic
crap that was forza 2 nevermind I can't find one from forza 3 showroom.

I know the cars will look better in GT5 I am not dissagreeing with you on that.

 

[Terronium-12]

Here's a good comparison of the visual improvements FM3 has over FM2.

I can't find any showroom pics though. I'd take my own picture, but the quality is gonna suck big time.

 

[Luminis]

I can't find any showroom pics though. I'd take my own picture, but the quality is gonna suck big time.

The easiest way to get a picture from FM3 would be to take one ingame, upload it to your storefront, then download it to you PC from your 'My Forza' page over at forzamotorssport.net.

I would do it myself, but my XBL Gold has expired and I don't feel like subscribing again.