Human Rights

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I'm going to need some kind of explanation of that to make sense of it. You basically said it's important because it's important.

So viability is important to you because someone decided to use it to bin some data?
Because it's based on physiology.

No matter how advanced NICU units become, no human will survive being born and put on a ventilator before 21 weeks gestation.

That seems a good demarcation for me as your alternative (cognition) is impossible to measure.

If the guardian in your hypothetical world wanted to give up their child for science before it had reached an age where it had a right to life, should that be possible?
 
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Because it's based on physiology.

No matter how advanced NICU units become, no human will survive being born and put on a ventilator before 21 weeks gestation.
Uh... maybe not a ventilator, but an artificial womb seems totally do-able.
That seems a good demarcation for me as your alternative (cognition) is impossible to measure.
But what makes it significant?
If the guardian in your hypothetical world wanted to give up their child for science before it had reached an age where it had a right to life, should that be possible?
A guardian doesn't necessarily have that prerogative. A guardianship arrangement is not an ownership arrangement.
 
Uh... maybe not a ventilator, but an artificial womb seems totally do-able.
But then....would they be "born"?
But what makes it significant?
First breath is a pretty important milestone
A guardian doesn't necessarily have that prerogative. A guardianship arrangement is not an ownership arrangement.
So what safeguards would there be against experimentation on more developed humans?
 
But then....would they be "born"?
They would be "viable" which was my point to you.
First breath is a pretty important milestone
There are many such milestones, but why are we talking about first breaths? I thought we were talking about viability.
So what safeguards would there be against experimentation on more developed humans?
You mean adults? Consent.
 
They would be "viable" which was my point to you.
But viability in the future could start from conception
There are many such milestones, but why are we talking about first breaths? I thought we were talking about viability.
Many things happen with the first breath. Viability will always be pushed earlier and earlier whereas the capacity to live ex-utero won't
You mean adults? Consent.
I meant more developed foetuses/gestatelings/infants.
 
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But viability in the future could start from conception

Many things happen with the first breath. Viability will always be pushed earlier and earlier whereas the capacity to live ex-utero won't
I feel like you're arguing with yourself now.
I meant more developed foetuses/gestatelings/infants.
Ok well we've been around the block on this one. For infants, guardianship. For fetuses/gestatelings, property rights of the mother. For a fetus in an artificial womb, it seems to be a matter of convention.
 
For fetuses/gestatelings, property rights of the mother. For a fetus in an artificial womb, it seems to be a matter of convention.
Hmmmm.

I know you've compared the human foetus with a lab mouse/rat, but should we, speaking from a bioethical perspective really treat them as exactly the same when thinking about their usage in clinical trials?

When should this moment of convention occur? What should it be dictated by? Does morality not come into the decision at all?
 
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I know you've compared the human foetus with a lab mouse/rat, but should we, speaking from a bioethical perspective really treat them as exactly the same when thinking about their usage in clinical trials?
In some cases lab rats are due more moral consideration. For example a 2-cell embryo (or whatever you call it) vs. a lab rat.
When should this moment of convention occur? What should it be dictated by?
Uh... convention?
Does morality not come into the decision at all?
If the question is something like whether morality comes into play when you're manipulating a clump of cells, no. For a human fetus, no more than a lab rat. If you want to argue for some level of moral consideration of a lab rat, you could probably make a parallel argument for a human fetus of a certain stage of development. But this is the context of the discussion. I offer zero consideration for the species, because the species is arbitrary in this discussion.

In terms of what happens to that entity in the future, morality might come into play. A child born with defects caused by its mother's alcohol use during pregnancy may have a case against its mother. But the child has to actually be born and exist for that harm to be realized against an individual with moral standing. If the fetus is aborted, that never happens.
 
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This is where we differ.

I can't envisage a change in attitude to where we treat more developed humans the same as we do mice/rats
But we're not talking about more developed humans, we're talking about humans that haven't even developed to the level of mice or rats.
 
But we're not talking about more developed humans, we're talking about humans that haven't even developed to the level of mice or rats.
More developed than the current 14 day limit, but less than the level of mice/rats.
 
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More developed than the current 14 day limit, but less than the level of mice/rats.
This is what you said.
I can't envisage a change in attitude to where we treat more developed humans the same as we do mice/rats
You see how that looks like you're saying "more developed" than mice/rats right?

Why can you not "envisage a change in attitude to where we treat" less "developed humans that same as we do mice/rats"?
 
This is what you said.

You see how that looks like you're saying "more developed" than mice/rats right?

Why can you not "envisage a change in attitude to where we treat" less "developed humans that same as we do mice/rats"?
In my defence, I was talking about foetuses and gestatelings, and so thought it unnecessary to state they would be less developed than lab mice/rats. I want to know where the limit will be arrived at (by convention or whatever)?

What I'm trying to show is that we should have a distinction based on species.

Taking this point to the extreme (since it seems we're stuck here), why would it presumably be unacceptable to eat a human foetus, yet having a munch of other animals who would be far more intelligent is tolerated?
 
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Taking this point to the extreme (since it seems we're stuck here), why would it presumably be unacceptable to eat a human foetus, yet having a munch of other animals who would be far more intelligent is tolerated?
Why the presumption that it is unacceptable? If you want to show that there is something special about humans compared to every other species, and you want that to NOT be the actual thing that makes us special - our ability to reason. Then make the case.
 
Why the presumption that it is unacceptable? If you want to show that there is something special about humans compared to every other species, and you want that to NOT be the actual thing that makes us special - our ability to reason. Then make the case.
This goes back to the argument of ethics/morality vs logic.

From a purely logical perspective, it should be permissible. But humans differ from animals too because of their sense of morality *, ethics and their different cultures.

Ignoring those facets of a human makes us no different to an advanced AI, which we aren't.

*That is not to say that some animals don't have capacity to display morality.
 
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This goes back to the argument of ethics/morality vs logic.

From a purely logical perspective, it should be permissible. But humans differ from animals too because of their sense of morality *, ethics and their different cultures.

Ignoring those facets of a human makes us no different to an advanced AI, which we aren't.

*That is not to say that some animals don't have capacity to display morality.

I couldn't quite follow this.

What is it that you think differentiates humans from other animals (or AI) if it's not our cognitive ability to reason? Our sense of morality comes from natural selection selecting genes favorable to reciprocal behavior. This is present in other animals besides humans.
 
I couldn't quite follow this.

What is it that you think differentiates humans from other animals (or AI) if it's not our cognitive ability to reason? Our sense of morality comes from natural selection selecting genes favorable to reciprocal behavior. This is present in other animals besides humans.
The dead can't reciprocate, so where does our morality in how we treat them derive from?

Incidentally, I found this when thinking about your position:

 
The dead can't reciprocate, so where does our morality in how we treat them derive from?

I don't particularly have a moral requirement for how we treat the dead, so why don't you tell me? Where do you derive whatever morals you want to enforce around the treatment of dead bodies?

Where does our behavior come from surrounding the dead? Superstition and disease would be two major contributors I'd expect.

Incidentally, I found this when thinking about your position:


It's an interesting read, and he has some good ideas. But he's slightly confused. It honestly makes me want to quit my job and join a philosophy department... something I'm putting off for another decade or so.

One of his confusions is in that Lions are philosophically consistent. There is no need for them to change. Another is that minimization of suffering is an impossible goal, and even if you could achieve it, you might not want to. Another is how arbitrarily he ranks physical pain over other kinds of suffering.
 
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I don't particularly have a moral requirement for how we treat the dead, so why don't you tell me? Where do you derive whatever morals you want to enforce around the treatment of dead bodies?

Where does our behavior come from surrounding the dead? Superstition and disease would be two major contributors I'd expect.
I think we should be respectful and not abuse the dead. Where that morality derives from is our society, I presume.

Do you believe they have any rights, and do you think there should be any limitations on what can be done to them?

One of his confusions is in that Lions are philosophically consistent. There is no need for them to change.
So you disagree with the toddler analogy?
Another is that minimization of suffering is an impossible goal, and even if you could achieve it, you might not want to.
Human suffering or suffering of animals/plants/etc?
 
I think we should be respectful and not abuse the dead. Where that morality derives from is our society, I presume.

"Should be" or "are morally required". Is it a good idea or is it evil or somehow blameworthy to do otherwise?

Do you believe they have any rights, and do you think there should be any limitations on what can be done to them?

The dead don't exist as individuals, so how can they possibly have any rights? Whatever rights extend to anything relating to the dead has to be acted upon through entities that survive them. Beneficiaries, and chains of contingent beneficiaries are how this is set up. When you die, your property rights presumably are given contractually to someone else through some kind of legal instrument you set up while you were alive. That person (or people or corporations or charities etc.) inherits those property rights, including rights to the body.

So you disagree with the toddler analogy?

There are multiple. I'm not sure which one you're talking about or what you mean by disagree. Do you mean I think the toddler should be allowed to shoot people? No.

Human suffering or suffering of animals/plants/etc?

Have you ever bought an expensive meal that you didn't like all that much and you just regretted having done the whole thing? I did that not long ago. My wife and I paid $160 or something for a meal for 2 that... I mean it was fine... but it wasn't $160 fine you know? We both wish we had made a different decision. That's suffering. It's a tiny, inconsequential amount of suffering. But it is suffering. Do I think this should be minimized? No.

Emotional suffering is completely ignored in this article - as though it doesn't matter. Many people would choose many types of physical suffering over emotional, to the point where they become suicidal. Physical suffering generally doesn't lead people to be suicidal, but it does happen. Still, emotional suffering is to blame far more often for suicidal feelings. And the article doesn't seem to give 2 spits about this significant and devastating reality for many people. That's because how you go about mitigating emotional suffering is quite nebulous.

My wife got stung by a wasp two weekends back - physical suffering. I read about the war in Ukraine - emotional suffering. None of these need or even should be minimized. Much of it is actually healthy for us to experience as an organism. I'm not saying we should go out of our way to cause suffering, I'm saying that focusing the moral question on suffering is fruitless.
 
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"Should be" or "are morally required". Is it a good idea or is it evil or somehow blameworthy to do otherwise?
Morally required since desecration of the dead would be morally wrong
The dead don't exist as individuals, so how can they possibly have any rights? Whatever rights extend to anything relating to the dead has to be acted upon through entities that survive them. Beneficiaries, and chains of contingent beneficiaries are how this is set up. When you die, your property rights presumably are given contractually to someone else through some kind of legal instrument you set up while you were alive. That person (or people or corporations or charities etc.) inherits those property rights, including rights to the body.
But what happens if there is no advanced directive?

Should they be regarded as the property of whoever has been charged with their care? Doesn't that mean they could be used for purposes they may not have consented to while they were alive.

And what about laws against the abuse of the deceased?
There are multiple. I'm not sure which one you're talkng about or what you mean by disagree. Do you mean I think the toddler should be allowed to shoot people? No.
Equating a lion with a toddler with a gun - as in, it's our duty to intervene with both.
Have you ever bought an expensive meal that you didn't like all that much and you just regretted having done the whole thing? I did that not long ago. My wife and I paid $160 or something for a meal for 2 that... I mean it was fine... but it wasn't $160 fine you know? We both wish we had made a different decision. That's suffering. It's a tiny, inconsequential amount of suffering. But it is suffering. Do I think this should be minimized? No.
I think there's a distinction between minimising suffering, and minimising all suffering.
My wife got stung by a wasp two weekends back - physical suffering. I read about the war in Ukraine - emotional suffering. None of these need or even should be minimized.
Why not?

Because they are learning experiences??
Much of it is actually healthy for us to experience as an organism. I'm not saying we should go out of our way to cause suffering, I'm saying that focusing the moral question on suffering is fruitless.
Some suffering is "good" - in whatever form it is because it helps an organism. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be aiming to minimise suffering, in an overarching sense. Again, I'm not saying the purpose or goal should be to minimise all suffering. I'm sure the subject of that article would agree with that.

*This reminds me to have a read on your thoughts on veganism.
 
Morally required since desecration of the dead would be morally wrong

Who is the moral transgression against?

But what happens if there is no advanced directive?

Should they be regarded as the property of whoever has been charged with their care? Doesn't that mean they could be used for purposes they may not have consented to while they were alive.

Generally the law prescribes a default.

And what about laws against the abuse of the deceased?

How can you abuse a person that no longer exists?

Equating a lion with a toddler with a gun - as in, it's our duty to intervene with both.

Duty....

In the toddler case, there is someone who is likely a guardian of the toddler and is entrusted with governing its actions in areas where it cannot properly govern its own actions. This person would have a duty. For everyone else, it is a good Samaritan situation. There is no duty to save, but many would choose to. You can see how neither of these fits the lion.

I think there's a distinction between minimising suffering, and minimising all suffering.

Good luck sorting that one out.

Why not?

Because they are learning experiences??

Some suffering is "good" - in whatever form it is because it helps an organism. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be aiming to minimise suffering, in an overarching sense. Again, I'm not saying the purpose or goal should be to minimise all suffering. I'm sure the subject of that article would agree with that.

*This reminds me to have a read on your thoughts on veganism.

Because what it would take to eliminate wasp stings may not even be preferable. You'd likely minimize a little physical pain in exchange for a lot of emotional discomfort, like no longer being able to visit a pool in the summer. The best way to minimize physical suffering is to climb into a coffin and put yourself down gently. Life entails a great deal of physical and emotional suffering, and it is part of what makes life worth living - because it gives color to the rest.

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Your entire view of beauty is wrapped up with your view of pain. All of your appreciation for comfort is wrapped up with your understanding of discomfort. Minimizing suffering, especially if you focus entirely on the physical, comes with great loss. It's not just impossible, it's a bad idea.

That is not to say that we should go seek suffering, although some do precisely for the reasons I've stated. It's not to say we should inflict suffering for these reasons. That was covered here:

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Neither of those is what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that suffering is not the correct parameter to poke at morally speaking. People will suffer through their own choices, even voluntarily, or from circumstance. And it is not our place to judge whether it is right or wrong, or permissible. As an example, children cause suffering in large quantities both physically and emotionally. But they also cause joy. Who are any of us to determine this balance for someone?

Now you might say, this is about choice. And the gazelle doesn't have a choice in its suffering. First of all, I would say that didn't listen to what I was saying very carefully, because I was talking about things that happen TO you in addition to choice. Nobody who has a child is choosing to have them die early of leukemia or in a car crash. Not having children removes that chance. You might say, this is about suffering caused by others that is not your choice. I would again say this isn't listening carefully, because a car crash can be caused by someone. You might say, this is about suffering caused by others who chose to inflict that suffering. Again, having children exposes you to this kind of suffering. And if you think people are choosing to expose themselves to this kind of suffering by having children, I think that's assuming way too much about how people consider future risk.

You might say, the immoral act is only about the actor who perpetuates the physical suffering of others by choice. You mean that landlord that causes someone to go hungry? The employer or government health care benefits that don't cover some kind of operation? The dentist that doesn't come in after hours for a toothache?

Suffering is not the correct moral metric.
 
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Who is the moral transgression against?



Generally the law prescribes a default.



How can you abuse a person that no longer exists?
Let's say one of the worst transgressions - rape.

That would be morally (and should be legally wrong) no? Yet is there a victim?
Duty....

In the toddler case, there is someone who is likely a guardian of the toddler and is entrusted with governing its actions in areas where it cannot properly govern its own actions. This person would have a duty. For everyone else, it is a good Samaritan situation. There is no duty to save, but many would choose to. You can see how neither of these fits the lion.
Would the good Samaritan not help the gazelle to the best of their abilities?
Good luck sorting that one out.

Because what it would take to eliminate wasp stings may not even be preferable. You'd likely minimize a little physical pain in exchange for a lot of emotional discomfort, like no longer being able to visit a pool in the summer. The best way to minimize physical suffering is to climb into a coffin and put yourself down gently. Life entails a great deal of physical and emotional suffering, and it is part of what makes life worth living - because it gives color to the rest.

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Would you be open to the statement: "we should aim to minimise certain forms of sufferin
People will suffer through their own choices, even voluntarily, or from circumstance. And it is not our place to judge whether it is right or wrong, or permissible. As an example, children cause suffering in large quantities both physically and emotionally. But they also cause joy. Who are any of us to determine this balance for someone?

Now you might say, this is about choice. And the gazelle doesn't have a choice in its suffering. First of all, I would say that didn't listen to what I was saying very carefully, because I was talking about things that happen TO you in addition to choice. Nobody who has a child is choosing to have them die early of leukemia or in a car crash. Not having children removes that chance. You might say, this is about suffering caused by others that is not your choice. I would again say this isn't listening carefully, because a car crash can be caused by someone. You might say, this is about suffering caused by others who chose to inflict that suffering. Again, having children exposes you to this kind of suffering. And if you think people are choosing to expose themselves to this kind of suffering by having children, I think that's assuming way too much about how people consider future risk.

You might say, the immoral act is only about the actor who perpetuates the physical suffering of others by choice. You mean that landlord that causes someone to go hungry? The employer or government health care benefits that don't cover some kind of operation? The dentist that doesn't come in after hours for a toothache?
It's all about mitigation to an appropriate degree.

Not having children to avoid all suffering associated with child rearing would be an extreme - but morally the right thing to do, for example, would be to give them their shots to avoid potential illness. This would cause suffering in the short term (to the child), but the context is important.

Suffering is not the correct moral metric.
What is?
 
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Let's say one of the worst transgressions - rape.

That would be morally (and should be legally wrong) no? Yet is there a victim?

You mean of a dead body? That's not rape. I don't know what the moral transgression even might be in this case, violation of property rights of someone else I suppose?


Would the good Samaritan not help the gazelle to the best of their abilities?

They could. But that's not the question. The question is whether it is immoral not to.

Would you be open to the statement: "we should aim to minimise certain forms of sufferin

Not particularly. Obviously we can attempt to minimize certain forms of suffering. Perhaps it's a good idea to minimize certain forms of suffering. But an ought statement regarding a particular kind of suffering? That's deeply arbitrary and difficult to support, especially since it's "certain forms", you have to justify why those forms and not others.

It's all about mitigation to an appropriate degree.

This is not sounding like a moral prescription. It's sounding like an opinion.

Not having children to avoid all suffering associated with child rearing would be an extreme - but morally the right thing to do, for example, would be to give them their shots to avoid potential illness. This would cause suffering in the short term (to the child), but the context is important.

As a guardian, you have taken on a duty to make medical decisions for the benefit of your ward. The goal is not to minimize the suffering of the child. In some cases the suffering might be increased by doing the right thing medically. The goal is to make decisions in the place of the child that are for the child's benefit so that ultimately they can developmentally make their own decisions.


Fundamental rights. The initiation of force by one person against another. Let's take the lion, for example. The lion initiates force against the gazelle. This demonstrates something about the lion, which is that it does not observe a right to life of the gazelle. The lion is, in human parlance, a murderer - bereft of a right to life in view of its own moral choices. Now you might say, but what if humans kill a gazelle, or cow. We know that no matter the training or development, those animals cannot act reciprocally with respect to basic rights, and so they lack rights due to biological limitations. The same might be true of humans, and indeed when we identify such cases, we act accordingly.
 
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Danoff
Fundamental rights

The problem, as far as I can see, with exclusively focussing on rights is (for example):


Danoff
You mean of a dead body? That's not rape. I don't know what the moral transgression even might be in this case, violation of property rights of someone else I suppose?


-------


Out of curiosity, what do you think of damages assessed on the basis of "pain and suffering"?
 
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The problem, as far as I can see, with exclusively focussing on rights is (for example):
I don't see the problem.
Out of curiosity, what do you think of damages assessed on the basis of "pain and suffering"?
If this were actually a conflict, it would be a conflict for you as well.

In the course of violating someone's rights you might harm them. You might, for example, cut off their arm. The damage you have inflicted in that case is cutting off their arm, and you're responsible for that damage because it's a rights violation. If it were not a rights violation, for example suppose you are a surgeon who is performing an amputation, then you are not responsible for the damage of removing someone's arm, because you have not violated their rights. Having sex with someone is bad if it's a rights violation, and not bad if it's not a rights violation. The question in a rape case is not whether the victim sufficiently enjoyed it, it's whether it was consensual. You can also have consensual sex that isn't enjoyable. So you can see how damage assessed on the basis of "pain and suffering" is not an issue. However, if it were, it would be a problem for you as well.

If you cause someone pain and suffering by breaking up with them, that's not a rights violation. So you are not responsible for the harm that is imposed in that case. But if you break into someone's home and scare the crap out of them, you have caused them pain and suffering while violating their property rights. Your society would imprison you for the break-in and under certain circumstances penalize you for the pain and suffering you have caused (at least I'm pretty sure it would). However, your society would not imprison you for the pain and suffering you cause someone when you break up. So you can see how this particular conflict you propose is, first of all not a conflict, but second of all if it is a conflict it's one you in particular need to resolve. Do go on and explain why you're not arrested when you break up with someone.
 
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I don't see the problem.

If this were actually a conflict, it would be a conflict for you as well.

In the course of violating someone's rights you might harm them. You might, for example, cut off their arm. The damage you have inflicted in that case is cutting off their arm, and you're responsible for that damage because it's a rights violation. If it were not a rights violation, for example suppose you are a surgeon who is performing an amputation, then you are not responsible for the damage of removing someone's arm, because you have not violated their rights. Having sex with someone is bad if it's a rights violation, and not bad if it's not a rights violation. The question in a rape case is not whether the victim sufficiently enjoyed it, it's whether it was consensual. You can also have consensual sex that isn't enjoyable. So you can see how damage assessed on the basis of "pain and suffering" is not an issue. However, if it were, it would be a problem for you as well.

If you cause someone pain and suffering by breaking up with them, that's not a rights violation. So you are not responsible for the harm that is imposed in that case. But if you break into someone's home and scare the crap out of them, you have caused them pain and suffering while violating their property rights. Your society would imprison you for the break-in and under certain circumstances penalize you for the pain and suffering you have caused (at least I'm pretty sure it would). However, your society would not imprison you for the pain and suffering you cause someone when you break up. So you can see how this particular conflict you propose is, first of all not a conflict, but second of all if it is a conflict it's one you in particular need to resolve. Do go on and explain why you're not arrested when you break up with someone.
My position isn't that they are mutually exclusive - rather they should both be taken into account (with rights being dominant in the majority of cases, at least as it pertains to law).

I just see several cases of suffering (or immorality) that, because of focussing only on rights aren't (or wouldn't be) addressed like:

1) Foetal pain during an abortion
2) Experimentation on humans before a set limit
3) Desecration of the dead
4) Pornographic images/videos of virtual, or doctored underage children
 
My position isn't that they are mutually exclusive - rather they should both be taken into account (with rights being dominant in the majority of cases, at least as it pertains to law).
Well I guess I have to count this as progress don't I? If you're seeing rights being "dominant", maybe I've at least moved the needle a little.
I just see several cases of suffering (or immorality) that, because of focussing only on rights aren't (or wouldn't be) addressed like:

1) Foetal pain during an abortion
2) Experimentation on humans before a set limit
3) Desecration of the dead
4) Pornographic images/videos of virtual, or doctored underage children
Most people treat moral questions like a bit of a gut check. And when their gut doesn't line up with their head, they go with their gut. That's not a bad thing, that gut (or ingrained instinct or deeply learned belief) is probably there for a good reason. But the gut is not infallible. People go with their gut when they say that drag shows are evil. People go with their gut with xenophobia too. I think it's important to learn to be skeptical of these kinds of responses. So let's look at your list.

1) Pain

First of all, pain is not something that is automatically bad. Your example suggests that the problem is actually causing pain to something that can be considered innocent - which would be a rights violation if that thing had rights. But I think it's important to remember that morally you can't regulate pain. It's something that we experience when we break up or get broken up with. Pain it's something you experience at the doctor's office or if you assault someone and get pepper sprayed.

Pain is almost impossible to define, and you can cast is broadly enough that you could decide that ants, trees, and computer programs feel it. Pain being hard to define, thresholds of pain are even harder.

If something doesn't have rights, we ultimately can cause it pain. Dogs don't have rights, generally, and they experience some pain when they are euthanized. Cows don't have rights, and they can experience some pain at the slaughterhouse or when branded. Death row criminals don't have rights, and they can experience some pain when they are euthanized as well. It may not be a wise idea to systemically cause unnecessary pain, and it may be a good idea to institutionalize practices that attempt to mitigate pain, like anesthetizing dogs, cows, or those to be executed. But this is fundamentally less of a moral question than you might initially think, because it is so hard to define, and because thresholds are so hard to define.

That's regarding pain introduced to a fetus, but it doesn't even consider that the pain you're talking about is one that someone is exercising over a part of their own body during an abortion. It's not even the case of cows, where they are separate entities without rights, it's a case where this is literally part of YOUR body that you control. It's like if the cow could kill you by being alive and you STILL were not allowed to inflict any pain to it to save your own life. That's the insanity of "fetal pain during abortion".

2) Let's say we're talking about experimenting on an 8 celled human embryo. Where is your moral question? This is a moral misfiring. You're mentally attached to the DNA for some reason, and scientific experimentation then gets an automatic no from you, despite the fact that an 8-cell embryo is absolutely not a moral entity. An adult ant has 20 million cells.

3) What exactly are you concerned about with desecration of the dead? When you die, your body is reduced to a pile of tissue, bones, and blood. There is no moral entity there to protect. A lot of people donate their bodies to science, to be practiced on for dissection, to be studied, or for organ donation. Generally speaking, I can't see a reason to get worked up about some spent tissue. But as I mentioned, generally a dead body will belong to someone, it will be the property of that person. And so if you'r worried about how it will be treated because of the surviving people, it will be in their care directly.

4) You've barely discussed this one, so perhaps we should examine this further. I was thinking the other day that we may need something like a trademark for faces. This is not a moral prescription, just like trademarks are not a moral issue, but rather a regulatory exercise, just like trademark, to prevent confusion. Right now, there is a major strike in the entertainment industry, and one of the sticking points is ownership over an actor's likeness. I'm not sure that it should be limited to actors.

When someone draws a sexy fox engaged in adult behavior, how old is the fox? An adult fox is about 1 year old, roughly speaking. Is this a depiction of a 1 year old engaged in adult behavior? What if the person draws what looks like a 10 year old human engaged in that behavior, but the being is actually an alien that matures to this size as a adult? When it comes to fantasy artwork, it's very difficult to determine exactly what is and is not pedophillic pornography. And honestly, I think it's best that we not make the attempt. There is no evidence to suggest that it results in harm for anyone, and there are arguments that it could prevent harm.
 
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You've barely discussed this one, so perhaps we should examine this further. I was thinking the other day that we may need something like a trademark for faces. This is not a moral prescription, just like trademarks are not a moral issue, but rather a regulatory exercise, just like trademark, to prevent confusion. Right now, there is a major strike in the entertainment industry, and one of the sticking points is ownership over an actor's likeness. I'm not sure that it should be limited to actors.
I thought personality rights and publicity rights already covered this, but the studios are effectively not suitably observing them?

4) Pornographic images/videos of virtual, or doctored underage children
Doctored might be a different case if the likeness is to a real person, but let's say someone uses AI to generate what would otherwise be illegal porn for personal gratification... what would you propose to do about it, and why? As Danoff points out, this implied, or 'virtual' immorality could potentially stop a real child being exploited, it causes no pain or suffering and is legitimately victimless.
 
I thought personality rights and publicity rights already covered this, but the studios are effectively not suitably observing them?
It's a bid muddy from a legal perspective. But I think the main concern is over AI.

Imagine that Disney puts out a cartoon version of iron man. How close can they get to RDJ? Do they own the iron man likeness without owning the RDJ likeness? Do they tell the artist to make it look sufficiently different? When AI can be used not just to create a static cartoon, but a dynamic one, or ultimately generate the character in a movie, including sound, appearance, mannerism, etc. Who owns that? Is it Disney because their software generated it and they own all of the trademarking around Iron Man, or is it RDJ because its his likeness? I think this is an issue they've wanted to clear up now before it becomes too big a problem.
 
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