Hybrids and Electrics aka Hippie cars

[homeforsummer]

Err, surely you mean 4~6 million people? That's what that website seemed to say about 10,000BC.

4~6 thousand is a miniscule number in terms of a world population, they'd be knocked out by one hungry tiger.

Err... yeah. My mistake. Still, it's a fair way short of just under 7 billion...

 

[Stevisiov]

It's funny, I really can't argue with any points made by HFS, in fact its eerily similar to my veiw on the matter.

However I can understand Sam48's point on the matter even if the points made are fuzzy and some of the statements are completely incorrect (particularly Globabl warming being invented by the goevernment).

I've noticed this viewpoint is shared by many car enthusiasts and I am going to take my own stab at interpreting why, note this is only my opinion.

Regardless of how accurate or inaccurate doom and gloom global warming theories are, many feel the automotive industry has been made somewhat of a scapegoat in the whole debate, I would agree to an extent myself. The car is often portrayed as the big evil and that to save the world the car must be cleaned up. Taxation of car emissions would be one such example of the car being somewhat unfairly treated in all of this.

Some people are sick of hearing that the car is the evil that is killing the planet and being told they should get a Prius and save the world; partly because people don't like to be told what they should be told what to buy, by people who like to take the moral high ground who generally don't know what they are talking about and partly because (lets not beat around the bush here) the Prius is a bit boring. If you like your petrol hungry sports cars then its likely you will feel a little disappointed with your Prius which barely has more charisma than a Corolla.

That's a problem, because it causes people to hate the Prius for the wrong reasons, The Prius is somewhat of a scapegoat for the otherside of the argument. I don't hate the Prius, I hate what it represents, or rather the people who represent it. Greenies, celebrities telling us it will save the world when it won't. I actually like the Prius, in my eyes it marks a step in the right direction, not saving the world, but taking an important step towards the development of electric vehicles. Hybrids are the bridge that is required as electric cars simply aren't there yet.

I personally get rather excited about electric cars, and they really shouldn't be labelled as hippie cars (nor should hybrid), there no reason electric cars have to be (lets face it) crap econoboxes like the G-wizz, there's no reason why you couldn't have a high performance electric or hybrid car. If you could combine the low speed acceleration of an electric car with the high speed acceleration of a petrol car, you would have a pretty impressive vehicle on your hands, that still sounds like a normal car.

I think many people worry that the likes of electric cars is the end of motoring as we know it, I somehow doubt that. People will always want big fast luxury cars so its unlikely that the only cars available will be a bit dull and boring like the Prius, no matter what our cars run on.

 

[Ladder Set 7]

If anyone of you (European person) lived in the US for just a few months you'd understand what freedom is, and how bad your government really is. We've gone way off topic.

There is more than one country in Europe you know? There's also more than one government with more than one way of way of thinking.

 

[TouringDevotee]

Nope, it's because European governments followed the money, and became socialist. In America we don't have global warming related taxes because we are capitalist. I can't describe really the rest. You'd have to step back and look at everything differently to understand this.

If anyone of you (European person) lived in the US for just a few months you'd understand what freedom is, and how bad your government really is. We've gone way off topic.

But keep in mind this was before scientists received grant money from the government. I'll say again, follow the money.

If anyone of you (European person) lived in the US for just a few months you'd understand what freedom is, and how bad your government really is. We've gone way off topic.

I'm am now 10 steps back, but having a hard time following your logic. By your own words, you previously stated that following the money is good and leads to knowledge that the earth is cooling and not warming (which is a conspiracy), and now following the money leads to socialism (which I am guessing is bad???). I am not sure that you can describe the rest either, then again, I am not sure that we could logically follow it.

You also, quite obviously, believe in American exceptionalism, which evidently doesn't concern itself with "following the money", because then you'd have to pay more taxes. Have you ever considered military spending a problem? It makes an emissions tax look like monopoly money.

Outside of emissions, taxes, etc...I'd really like to see specialized tuning options that allow for some extra fun with the low emissions vehicles.

 

[homeforsummer]

I've noticed this viewpoint is shared by many car enthusiasts and I am going to take my own stab at interpreting why, note this is only my opinion.

Regardless of how accurate or inaccurate doom and gloom global warming theories are, many feel the automotive industry has been made somewhat of a scapegoat in the whole debate, I would agree to an extent myself. The car is often portrayed as the big evil and that to save the world the car must be cleaned up. Taxation of car emissions would be one such example of the car being somewhat unfairly treated in all of this.

Some people are sick of hearing that the car is the evil that is killing the planet and being told they should get a Prius and save the world; partly because people don't like to be told what they should be told what to buy, by people who like to take the moral high ground who generally don't know what they are talking about and partly because (lets not beat around the bush here) the Prius is a bit boring. If you like your petrol hungry sports cars then its likely you will feel a little disappointed with your Prius which barely has more charisma than a Corolla.

I definitely agree. I think you've touched on the main issue - car enthusiasts see a bleak future for their hobby and suspect that all the great petrol cars will slowly disappear.

I'm in the unusual position (at least on this forum) of being a car enthusiast who absolutely can't wait for mainstream production electric cars. I can't wait for the moment I first get to drive a proper electric car and the day manufacturers start selling them in volume.

Sure, I like the environmental implications. But I also like the technological possibilities. Electricity is undoubtably a wonderful thing and it brings with it feature-packed digital cameras, iPhones, laptops and all manner of great stuff that's changed our lives massively. I think electric cars have the potential to do the same.

My thoughts aren't without apprehension though. I don't want to see the complete death of the petrol engine. Driving a petrol car, or even a diesel one, is great. I love feeling part of the machine. I'd be quite happy if sports cars, supercars and the like remained petrol. They're cars for enjoying driving on a visceral level and I don't think that's going to be possible with electric cars for a bit. Hybrids probably, full electrics no. The enjoyment you get from an electric car will be a more subtle one - cruising along in virtual silence, instant torque, that sort of thing.

In GT5 (to veer back towards the topic)? Well, it gives us an opportunity to experience things we might not otherwise experience. I'll definitely be driving all the electric and hybrid cars in the game as I can't really do so on the road just yet. I'll enjoy driving them for the same reason I enjoy driving the classics, Keis, supercars and anything else the game offers - because I can't really drive them in real life.

 

[Sam48]

I'm am now 10 steps back, but having a hard time following your logic. By your own words, you previously stated that following the money is good and leads to knowledge that the earth is cooling and not warming (which is a conspiracy), and now following the money leads to socialism (which I am guessing is bad???). I am not sure that you can describe the rest either, then again, I am not sure that we could logically follow it.

You also, quite obviously, believe in American exceptionalism, which evidently doesn't concern itself with "following the money", because then you'd have to pay more taxes. Have you ever considered military spending a problem? It makes an emissions tax look like monopoly money.

Outside of emissions, taxes, etc...I'd really like to see specialized tuning options that allow for some extra fun with the low emissions vehicles.

Sorry, I can see how that might confuse you. I'll clear that up.

When businesses "follow the money", it's usually a good thing.
When government "follows the money", it's usually means their looking for a new way to tax you. Such as emissions tax. So without global warming, no emissions tax. A single country's government gets billions of (your currency) every year through emission related taxes, so without global warming, those billions of (your currency) would stay in the hands of the people. Do you follow?

 

[homeforsummer]

The trouble is when people start claiming that global warming is a figment of the government's imagination...

 

[Sam48]

^ Or when they can't give an explination for my last post.

 

[homeforsummer]

^ Or when they can't give an explination for my last post.

I would have thought I've given more than enough explanation by now, but apparently not.

It's obvious why governments tax - to raise money for public services, military use etc. If they can find an excuse to tax something, they will.

What you appear to be hinting at (incorrectly) is that global warming is some made up concept created solely to tax people. It isn't - this I've made clear more than once - it just happens to be something that governments see "mileage" in, if you like. There's no point saying "without global warming" governments wouldn't tax it, because it's been there all along. Governments have simply discovered they can use it to their own ends.

Also, it's quite naïve to presume that without global warming governments wouldn't just tax something else instead...

And once again, you're leading the topic astray.

 

[Sam48]

I would have thought I've given more than enough explanation by now, but apparently not.

It's obvious why governments tax - to raise money for public services, military use etc. If they can find an excuse to tax something, they will.

What you appear to be hinting at (incorrectly) is that global warming is some made up concept created solely to tax people. It isn't - this I've made clear more than once - it just happens to be something that governments see "mileage" in, if you like. There's no point saying "without global warming" governments wouldn't tax it, because it's been there all along. Governments have simply discovered they can use it to their own ends.

Also, it's quite naïve to presume that without global warming governments wouldn't just tax something else instead..

Everything you said was perfect. Except the part about global warming being real. Because your country is socialist, you have emission tax, but because the US is not socialist, we don't have emission tax. So doesn't that kinda hint something to you there???

 

[Imari]

Everything you said was perfect. Except the part about global warming being real. Because your country is socialist, you have emission tax, but because the US is not socialist, we don't have emission tax. So doesn't that kinda hint something to you there???

Just because the US chooses not to tax something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Some countries choose not to tax cigarettes, does that mean that the health risks associated with them are actually false?

There are questions about global warming and it's effects/existence, but you really can't infer anything about the way the governments treat the matter. The government needs to get X amount of money each year to run the country. Some governments do it largely through income taxes, some choose to branch it out into other things like consumption taxes, property taxes, and environmental taxes. All the governments are different, and you can't read anything into the fact that some governments choose to do it different to others.

Also, stop using socialism as a pejorative. Capitalism is not the be-all and end-all of economic systems.

 

[Stevisiov]

Everything you said was perfect. Except the part about global warming being real. Because your country is socialist, you have emission tax, but because the US is not socialist, we don't have emission tax. So doesn't that kinda hint something to you there???

You simply don't get it do you? Global warming isn't a product of socialist governments introducing new taxing schemes. The taxing scheme is a product of global warming fears.

Taxing on CO2 emission is a silly idea in my opinion, however the notion of global warming is based on observation of global heat trends, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. How much of that is directly related to us is the key question to which there currently isn't a solid answer.

I'm not entirely sure why you pedal a capitalist uber alles stance about the inclusion of hippie cars in gran turismo with regard to global warming being false because its a socialist invention so that they can oppress people with their inherently evil taxation schemes, but you've yet to give any real solid reason or evidence as to why.

If that last paragraph didn't make sense (it shouldn't), then it should give you an idea of exactly how much sense you have made in the last few pages. I would ask you to carefully bullet exactly why global warming is an oppressive socialist invention but this really isn't the thread for it.

Perhaps instead you could carefully bullet why these 'hippie' cars should or shouldn't be in gran turismo. Then we can be on topic.

 

[Sam48]

It's hard to get my point across to people who have little knowledge of businss and politics so I'll shut up. I know that I don't give any sources or links, but that's because I base my answers souly off my knowledge of the subject.

 

[Kearney]

Global warming debate WHOOO!

Fact of the matter is, even if everyone driving switched to a Hybrid it would barely change a thing.

Assuming global warming is caused by 'green house gases', which is still debated, then even if EVERYONE switched to Hybrid/Electric only cars it would make only a very small dent in the over all problem.

Al Gore said we would all die by 2014, obviously he is a moron. But realistically based on the fact that the world is heating by fractions of a degree to a full degree every so often we have maybe two hundred years.

Everyone drove hybrids and we'd have maybe four hundred.

Once again, assuming global warming is caused by 'cars' and 'green house gases; which like I said is hotly debated. No matter what Mr. Gore says about the debate being closed.

So is it worth for my car loving ass to drive a hybrid when the major developing countries don't even care, waste more gas then me and have no intention of stopping?

Nope, not a ****in chance.

If everyone switched to a hybrid, would I? Nope. Two hundred years is more then i'll live, so its enough for me. An extra two hundred doesn't make much a difference to a corpse.

 

[niky]

It's hard to get my point across to people who have little knowledge of businss and politics so I'll shut up. I know that I don't give any sources or links, but that's because I base my answers souly off my knowledge of the subject.

So... your soul answers are based on an intimate knowledge of business and politics? What business do you run? Are you a political science major?

My dear boy, I'm an academician and a business owner (that business consisting of a school and a printing office). Whether it's in the academic field or on the business board, you always need hard data to back yourself up, otherwise people will shoot you down... for good reason. Because if you can't back yourself up, they will suspect you don't know what you're talking about and can't take any data or recommendations from you at face value.

If anyone of you (European person) lived in the US for just a few months you'd understand what freedom is, and how bad your government really is. We've gone way off topic.

Freedom is the ability to go out and kill yourself in any way you see fit. Whether that's through experimenting with dubious chemical formulas or catching STDs from a hooker, you can't do that in America. You can, however, do that in Amsterdam.

 

[Sam48]

So... your soul answers are based on an intimate knowledge of business and politics? What business do you run? Are you a political science major?

My dear boy, I'm an academician and a business owner (that business consisting of a school and a printing office). Whether it's in the academic field or on the business board, you always need hard data to back yourself up, otherwise people will shoot you down... for good reason. Because if you can't back yourself up, they will suspect you don't know what you're talking about and can't take any data or recommendations from you at face value.

Yes, I know I don't have anything to back up my data with, but your country is so filtered that it wouldn,t make a difference anyway. And yes, I do know quite alot about business and politics. (althoug politics is my strong suit) I'm sure you've heard about the leaked emails from the UK that denounced global warming right? Now there's something from your own country that backs up my data.

 

[Kearney]

You watch way too much Glenn Beck.

Granted, Al Gore and his friends cover up things that go against their 'the world will end tomorrow' theory about global warming.

But its a solid fact the world is actually 'warming'.

 

[TouringDevotee]

Sorry, I can see how that might confuse you. I'll clear that up.

When businesses "follow the money", it's usually a good thing.
When government "follows the money", it's usually means their looking for a new way to tax you. Such as emissions tax. So without global warming, no emissions tax. A single country's government gets billions of (your currency) every year through emission related taxes, so without global warming, those billions of (your currency) would stay in the hands of the people. Do you follow?

Okay, so you do not wish to be taxed on the emission of something, which you do not believe adds to a phenomenon that you do not believe exists.

Why not just say so instead of tying us up with half-baked political theories of taxes, the US and Europe. Freedom fries anyone?

 

[Sam48]

You watch way too much Glenn Beck.

Granted, Al Gore and his friends cover up things that go against their 'the world will end tomorrow' theory about global warming.

But its a solid fact the world is actually 'warming'.

True but it's at what pace would that be? no not GB, Rush.

 

[Sam48]

Okay, so you do not wish to be taxed on the emission of something, which you do not believe adds to a phenomenon that you do not believe exists.

Correct. Think about it.. Wouldn't you be ticked if someone taxed you for something you had no control over, nor even exists?

 

[Kearney]

Ah, Mr. Rush.

I'm a Republican, obviously so are you.

I don't want to be taxed with Cap and Trade either.

Do I think Al Gore and friends made it up to elaborately kill us all via economy?

No. Not really.

Do I think he is a bat **** insane moron who doesn't deserve his Noble Prize? Yes, yes I do.

That said, Hybrid cars don't fix the issue any way.

As for them being in GT5. Add British Nobles first, hybrids after please.

 

[niky]

Yes, I know I don't have anything to back up my data with, but your country is so filtered that it wouldn,t make a difference anyway. And yes, I do know quite alot about business and politics. (althoug politics is my strong suit) I'm sure you've heard about the leaked emails from the UK that denounced global warming right? Now there's something from your own country that backs up my data.

Bull-fricking bull.

The only things actually filtered here are youtube videos to keep pirates from getting their hands on them. My country doesn't actively block... say... torrent sites... like the US does. Strange combination, that. People can only get bootlegged high-definition music video and movie rips here, but not the legal low-resolution youtube stuff? Color me censored.

Any factual documents you might want to post won't be filtered.

Maybe GTPlanet is filtered in your country? Because I'm looking at my avatar, and it doesn't say UK in the space underneath it... does it?

Perhaps you ought to work on your own reading comprehension and knowledge before accusing others of lacking the same?

 

[Kearney]

I don't waste time with sources, but the documents he speaks of is a bunch of global warming guys talking about covering up stuff that proved they were wrong and that the world isn't going to end tomorrow.

It really isn't all that damning, just a bunch of scientists pissed off some guy found **** they couldn't. Don't believe? Google it you lazy bastard.

XD

 

[Sam48]

Bull-fricking bull.

The only things actually filtered here are youtube videos to keep pirates from getting their hands on them. My country doesn't actively block... say... torrent sites... like the US does. Strange combination, that. People can only get bootlegged high-definition music video and movie rips here, but not the legal low-resolution youtube stuff? Color me censored.

Any factual documents you might want to post won't be filtered.

Maybe GTPlanet is filtered in your country? Because I'm looking at my avatar, and it doesn't say UK in the space underneath it... does it?

Perhaps you ought to work on your own reading comprehension and knowledge before accusing others of lacking the same?

Philippines.. still socialist

Anyway, you've classic liberal thing and ignored the part where I give some data like you said I should. Unless you had never heard of this news, in which case you really are that filtered. And when I mean filtered, I talking about your news media.

 

[JAGUAR1977]

The trouble is when people start claiming that global warming is a figment of the government's imagination...

Recent polls in the UK show the majority of the population are Global Warming sceptics, a number that is increasing by the day.

They aren't denying Global Warming is taking place, just how much man is responsible, and even if it matters at all. Until those questions are answered the public will be scepticle.

There isn't a bottomless pit of money, put money towards Global Warming programs and you'll be taking it away from other aid programs, aid programs which will have a direct effect on people today, not theoretically in 50-100 years time.

 

[niky]

Philippines.. still socialist

Ah, you've classic liberal thing and ignored the part where I give some data like you said I should. And when I mean filtered, I talking about your news media.

You didn't give data. You asked if I'd heard about them. Yes I have. Shameful thing, really.

Does it change the fact that what you said about CO2 cooling the Earth is wrong? Nope.

Does it change the fact that you still haven't read my country correctly and are now assuming I live in Communist China? Nope.

Honestly, it can't be that hard to look up "Philippines" in the Encyclopedia or on Wikipedia and find out that we're a Roman-Catholic Democracy with free access to international media sources... can it?

-

And no, we're not Socialist... but maybe you should read even more and learn the difference between Democratic Socialism and Totalitarian Communism. Your answers are getting loopier by the minute.

-

So you're assuming I'm a commie-loving, blind-eyed greenie who believes Al Gore is God and that the spittle coming from his mouth is Holy Water? I actually don't believe the bull about Man-Made Industrial CO2 being a major contributor to global warming. Note: I said "Man-Made Industrial CO2". That's because it's a relatively minor contribution, overall, and all this CO2 hysteria and carbon-offsetting equals an exchange of money. And once you start regulating things for reasons of money instead of as an effort to actually do something about the problem, things just fall apart.

I believe that some measures being taken to counteract Climate Change are useful. Measures such as direct emissions reductions, for one, through using more efficient ICE engines. I believe that others are equal to pouring in good money after bad. To curb emissions, you don't make a small number of incredibly expensive cars... you make cheap cars more efficient, instead.

-

By the way, America does have a socialist emissions tax. It's called the gas-guzzler tax. A gas-guzzler tax is almost exactly the same as a CO2 tax. Except it gives a socialist discount to the proletariat who drive trucks to work. Damn commie government.

 

[Kearney]

That is only California, I believe.

I live in Jersey, I drive a guzzling money dump known as a lifted Bronco.

No tax.

 

[niky]

That is only California, I believe.

I live in Jersey, I drive a guzzling money dump known as a lifted Bronco.

No tax.

It's a Federal Tax.

Your (Our... I'm a US citizen-in-exile) socialist government feels that it is wrong for working comrades such as yourself to pay the same tax as the bourgeious who drive around in their pretentious little sedans which are of no use in our glorious agricultural productivity programs or to other members of the proletariat.

...vehicles defined in Title 49 C.F.R. sec. 523.5 (relating to light trucks) are exempt. These vehicles include those designed to transport property on an open bed (e.g., pick-up trucks) or provide greater cargo-carrying than passenger carrying volume including the expanded cargo-carrying space created through the removal of readily detachable seats (e.g., pick-up trucks, vans, and most minivans, sports utility vehicles and station wagons). Additional vehicles that meet the `non-passenger' requirements are those with at least four of the following characteristics: (1) an angle of approach of not less than 28 degrees; (2) a breakover angle of not less than 14 degrees; (3) a departure angle of not less than 20 degrees; (4) a running clearance of not less than 20 centimeters; and (5) front and rear axle clearances of not less than 18 centimeters each. These vehicles would include many sports utility vehicles.

http://suvs.about.com/od/fueleconomy/a/jf_gasguzzler.htm

Rejoice Comrade! Drive an SUV and be happy! Be productive!

 

[Raitziger]

Sam48: here is a link so show you how well your only right pure capitalist system works: http://www.usdebtclock.org/

 

[Kearney]

Interesting, I thought that was a California only tax.

I guess my big ass Bronco doesn't get taxed because I use it for work?

And hey. Don't make fun of Russia, they are watching.

U.S. Debt Clock: Yeah, I blame the current and last President for that monster. Both of them are total morons.