I don’t quite understand the outcry for a career mode, if only a small minority offered with GTS GT League & Arcade mode

  • Thread starter shenfrey
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For sure. The Tuning Grand Prix can’t even be done in GT Sport. Neither in Custom Race nor GT League. Couldn’t just have the Amuse S2000 with the Fugu Z, RE Amemiya FD, GT-R NISMO, GRMN 86, Isle of Mann WRX, DRIFT BRZ and all the other tuner cars PD forgot to include.
No championship races for points. Would have made so much sense. Even GT6 had a GT3 championship with that car lists small amount of real GT3 cars. Go figure.
 
o000o
Other than nostalgia, what do you think puts GT's previous careers ahead of GT League? As they too are picking events from lists.
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In GT Sport it's a bit like they've taken a numer of weak points of previous games and put them together, the driver level locked events from GT5, the lack of tuning from GT Concept, the lack of championships from GT2 (even that still had 3 of them), the chase the rabbit races from GT6.

To be fair, the GT League wasn't the main crux of GT Sport. It may be the most used feature in the game, but the Sport mode was the main feature. However GT7 is very much putting the traditional GT Career mode front and centre, and with that in mind I hope and expect it will be better thought out than GT Sports GT League was.
 
o000o
Other than nostalgia, what do you think puts GT's previous careers ahead of GT League? As they too are picking events from lists.
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Races. None of that truly stupid chase the rabbit who starts the "race" 20-30 seconds before the lights go out and dodging mobile chicanes to catching it. Qualifying so you can balance your car with the AI for a challange.
 
Samus
They don't. Completely the opposite.

Stats | Gran Turismo Sport | kudosprime.com

www.kudosprime.com www.kudosprime.com

84% of GTS players haven't done a single sport race. Not one. Only 7% have done more than 10 races.
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What a shame these figures are. I very much enjoy single player career mode as well but that such a high percentage haven’t even tried online is borderline pathetic. People are missing out.
 
“Missing out” depends on one’s experience. I’ve had more good than bad experiences, but any one player having never tried Sport Mode, doesn’t have to experience it at all. A solo player can get the same Motorsport weekend experience from a properly set up Arcade. Ode/GT League/Simulation Mode event. Look at ACC and PC2 race weekend set ups and Gran Turismo’s own past offline Championship events.

Daily Race and FIA events need work. Sometimes a player can have good consistent race experiences with other players that promote good race craft. Other times, there is such an imbalance of skill level, injustice/unsportsmanlike conduct, META cars, players simply not focusing on the race details, it ruins a casual play experience. I’ll wait and see how PD structure Sport Mode in GT7. Other than that, I’m happy to never experience Sport Mode ever again.
 
Personally GTS is my favorite in the GT series. This is mainly because the online racing. Obviously it’s not perfect but, when you get into a good race it’s extremely rewarding. I can definitely understand why people want a solid offline career mode, I would like something in what you see in ACC, or PC2. I do enjoy that single player experience and while I did enjoy completing 90% of GTS single player, majority felt as if they were more like challenges than actual racing. Sport mode is decent I have had great races, and bad but where GTS shines in my opinion is these online leagues on GTP! From getting your car livery ready for opening day, caution laps, clean accountable racing, Full damage, fuel strategies, pit strategies, rivalries, and much more. The experience you get racing with a group of good people who compete fairly in my opinion beats any type of offline play.
 
The "chase the mobile chicanes who are given a significant lead when you start in last" races are directly derived from GT4. The difference is that it was usually only a 3-4 second delay between when the leader took off and you did (though on some tracks it was longer than that), the field was usually closer together and the AI was all given cars that with power values inflated over stock so that they generally appeared to be level with each other instead of one car walking the field that you had to catch up with (assuming it wasn't a race where PD loaded the car selection pool with cars that were hopeless like the Karmann Ghia); but in practice if you were racing on a small track and the AI power levels were ramped up a lot the experience was frequently very similar to what GT5 was like when they butchered it later in its life (albeit never as bad as GT6). Opera Paris was particularly annoying; because the first AI driver would take off before you had even entered the final turn.
 
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Tornado
The "chase the mobile chicanes who are given a significant lead when you start in last" races are directly derived from GT4. The difference is that it was usually only a 3-4 second delay between when the leader took off and you did (though on some tracks it was longer than that), the field was usually closer together and the AI was all given cars that with power values inflated over stock so that they generally appeared to be level with each other instead of one car walking the field that you had to catch up with (assuming it wasn't a race where PD loaded the car selection pool with cars that were hopeless like the Karmann Ghia); but in practice if you were racing on a small track and the AI power levels were ramped up a lot the experience was frequently very similar to what GT5 was like when they butchered it later in its life (albeit never as bad as GT6). Opera Paris was particularly annoying; because the first AI driver would take off before you had even entered the final turn.
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Not quite. What happened in GT4 is the removal of rubber banding leading to chase the rabbit but it did not slow down to let you lead and then speed up again to give you a "close race." That started on GT6.
 
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SFredriksson
You didn't ask me but I'll answer anyway.
Other players.
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I guess you’re right about that probably being the answer. For contrast, exactly that is what’s kept me playing. Career mode and AI is something I consider a nice relaxing mode to speed through, with little to no challenge. I’ve little faith in AI putting up a challenge but views on all of this may differ based on driving capabilities. No offense intended.
 
NAXEHT
I guess you’re right about that probably being the answer. For contrast, exactly that is what’s kept me playing. Career mode and AI is something I consider a nice relaxing mode to speed through, with little to no challenge. I’ve little faith in AI putting up a challenge but views on all of this may differ based on driving capabilities. No offense intended.
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I don't think there's anyone that likes the offline game that doesn't think the AI needs some improvement, and certainly I'd accept that it feels 'different' to beat a human player. But it's not worth the drawbacks... those drawbacks being rammers and other *****, the awkwardness of accidentally being a rammer or ****, slower pacing of races (i.e. more waiting), lack of choice of circuit/car, ineffective penalties an imbalance of skill within the races, and lower payouts in the inevitable cases where you don't win.
 
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NAXEHT
I’ve little faith in AI putting up a challenge but views on all of this may differ based on driving capabilities.
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How much of that is based on your experience of GT's AI?

As AI does exist that is more than capable of providing solid racing, it's just never been in a GT title. Raceroom, as an example, offers up AI that is excellent (and also provides a solid on-line experience as well).

 
NAXEHT
What a shame these figures are. I very much enjoy single player career mode as well but that such a high percentage haven’t even tried online is borderline pathetic. People are missing out.
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I think skill based match making puts a lot of people off, but it’s still very easy to find clean races in the private lobbies. They are indeed missing out.

@Scaff the F1 games also have very fast AI, they will get close to top lb times on ultimate difficulty iirc.
 
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MikeV27
I think skill based match making puts a lot of people off
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Why do you think that?

I think people want to race against people of equivalent skill, but what lets the system down is that skill doesn't equate to clean racing, and people want a clean race too.
 
MatskiMonk
Why do you think that?

I think people want to race against people of equivalent skill, but what lets the system down is that skill doesn't equate to clean racing, and people want a clean race too.
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Imo most casual players want to be rewarded with good results but with minimal effort put in. As you climb the ladder in sport mode, you have to spend more and more time practicing or else you just won’t be competitive.

I’ve noticed that once you get above 35-40k dr, thats when you start racing the more serious players. Most people just don’t want to put in the time or effort to get to that level.
 
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MikeV27
Imo most casual players want to be rewarded with good results but with minimal effort put in. As you climb the ladder in sport mode you have to spend more and more time practicing or else you don’t stand a chance to even finish in the top 10 in a race.

I’ve noticed that once you get above 35-40k dr, thats when you start racing the more serious players. Most people just don’t want to put in the time or effort to get to that level.
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That's got nothing to do with not liking match making though.

Imagine a scenario with no match making at all, as a casual player you're as likely to end up with a spread of players both much better and much worse - you're likely to be up against players that are literally seconds per lap faster, the casual is simply not going to beat them. With perfect match making, you'd be on a grid with people whose pace is basically the same as yours.

I'd say, in that scenario even a 'casual' player will prefer the latter because it's going to feel like they've got a better chance of winning more of the time. The easy-reward you think they're chasing is no more achievable without match making, it's probably harder.

What you're effectively saying, is that to enjoy sport mode you need to git gud, and you're right, looking at the stats indicates that the vast majority of GT Sport buyers are not interested in getting that good. Kudos prime indicates only a small fraction of players are in the DR range you're talking about. But effectively, if you need to be in (pretty much) the Elite to enjoy it, then how many people are really "Missing out" by not going online, I'd suggest not really that many, because most wont be good enough enough.

I've been playing GT for 20 years. I've bought consoles just for it, I've bought 3 wheels over the years, I've invested a lot of time (and money) on most aspects of the game, I'm not a 'casual', but I'm also not really getting any better - so where does that leave people like me? 20 years appreciation for the game, and a **** online experience... great - think I'll give it a miss.
 
NAXEHT
If you don’t mind my asking, what is it you dislike about it?
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I know you weren't directly asking me but I don't want to play games with other strangers is the simple answer. When I play a game I want it to be on my own time, to relax and unwind. I can put a game in the console, fire it up and start playing. In games of other genres I can explore worlds at my own pace, do the things I want to when I want. No distractions, no waiting times to get going, no worry about griefing players, no worry about whether the other players are at my skill level or not with no real control over it, no worry about whether someone else goes and does the task I wanted to do. No worry about lag or internet cut outs. I could go on, but surely you get the idea. I have no interest in massively competitive gaming against other humans. Me against the computer, same as it's always been.

We're all wired differently.
 
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Samus
I know you weren't directly asking me but I don't want to play games with other strangers is the simple answer. When I play a game I want it to be on my own time, to relax and unwind. I can put a game in the console, fire it up and start playing. In games of other genres I can explore worlds at my own pace, do the things I want to when I want. No distractions, no waiting times to get going, no worry about griefing players, no worry about whether the other players are at my skill level or not with no real control over it, no worry about whether someone else goes and does the task I wanted to do. No worry about lag or internet cut outs. I could go on, but surely you get the idea. I have no interest in massively competetive gaming against other humans. Me against the computer, same as it's always been.
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The only caveat I would add is that I will occasionally go online with family members but I prefer offline exactly the way you said it.
 
MatskiMonk
I don't think there's anyone that likes the offline game that doesn't think the AI needs some improvement, and certainly I'd accept that it feels 'different' to beat a human player. But it's not worth the drawbacks... those drawbacks being rammers and other *****, the awkwardness of accidentally being a rammer or ****, slower pacing of races (i.e. more waiting), lack of choice of circuit/car, ineffective penalties an imbalance of skill within the races, and lower payouts in the inevitable cases where you don't win.
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I agree with most of your points, one big problem with the daily (or weekly) races in Sport mode as they are constructed now is when a combo (or two, or even all) are lacklustre — one might just end up playing a different game altogether for a week when really it was GT one desired. Not good, that.

The imbalance of skill I can’t co-sign, I think the DR system handles that quite nicely. I have heard of course that the sometimes lacking playerbase in Americas and Asia creates races with too big skill differences. Perhaps my experience as an EMEA player clouds my judgement a tad on this one. But it really isn’t a problem here.
Scaff
How much of that is based on your experience of GT's AI?

As AI does exist that is more than capable of providing solid racing, it's just never been in a GT title. Raceroom, as an example, offers up AI that is excellent (and also provides a solid on-line experience as well).

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What I said was based entirely on Gran Turismo AI. Granted, there are lots of racing games I haven’t played (RaceRoom as you mentioned for example) but the only challenging AI I’ve experienced so far was in games where it’s broken with insane rubber banding. It’s of course possible PD might nail an excellent and quite challenging AI but it’s not something I’d bet any money on or put faith in, that’s all.
MikeV27
Imo most casual players want to be rewarded with good results but with minimal effort put in. As you climb the ladder in sport mode, you have to spend more and more time practicing or else you just won’t be competitive.

I’ve noticed that once you get above 35-40k dr, thats when you start racing the more serious players. Most people just don’t want to put in the time or effort to get to that level.
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Perhaps you’re right about some of them. One could just settle for a casual ~20 - 45,000 range and just be fine with that though, no need to keep climbing. Naturally the wins, etc will fade out but that goes along with the casual style, I’d say.
Tired Tyres
Gaming to me is a fun and casual thing. Online just doesn't do it for me.
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Samus
I don't want to play games with other strangers is the simple answer. When I play a game I want it to be on my own time, to relax and unwind. I can put a game in the console, fire it up and start playing. In games of other genres I can explore worlds at my own pace, do the things I want to when I want. No distractions, no waiting times to get going, no worry about griefing players, no worry about whether the other players are at my skill level or not with no real control over it, no worry about whether someone else goes and does the task I wanted to do. No worry about lag or internet cut outs. I could go on, but surely you get the idea. I have no interest in massively competetive gaming against other humans. Me against the computer, same as it's always been.
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OK, fair enough. Thanks for the response. I can understand how avoiding online is something one might opt for if the aim is to just have some casual and/or relaxing fun as it can easily go overboard with the seriousness online, given certain people’s desperation for wins etc, etc.

Would still personally argue the same casual and relaxing fun can still be achieved online, even in Sport mode but most definitely as well in a more controlled environment with friends in lobbies for clean, fair and diverse racing. But do what thou wilt and all that.
 
shenfrey
I agree it was a bold statement, and one based on personal experience across a multitude of platforms. 90% of those I have spoken to, both IRL and all over the internet (Discord, Reddit, Forums etc) most complained and didn’t bother doing much of the single player.

I still stand by the majority of what I said up top, though I will happily admit to being incorrect on the single player in GT league not being as popular as I believed. Though it still could have been much better received I think.
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Your final sentence kind of answers the question you asked to begin with. GT League wasn’t well received because it was an oversimplified excuse for a progressive campaign. That’s why people want a better career mode. Also, it’s a bit much to say there has been an outcry…
 
A significant problem with online is also that you cant race with the cars you want on the tracks you want with the settings you want when you want it.

Its a great way of burning your 'pick up and play' market.
 
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I bet PD could make available the replays from each FIA event as a downloadable content to race against. Say, from qualifying to full race completion. Make available the best completed races from World Tour, A+, S, A, B, C, D, E.

That could be an option for Solo players to experience what Sport Mode play is like. Sure, some of those high ranking races can be be cluster dumps, but PD can pick and choose from a vast library of data.
 
NAXEHT
What I said was based entirely on Gran Turismo AI. Granted, there are lots of racing games I haven’t played (RaceRoom as you mentioned for example) but the only challenging AI I’ve experienced so far was in games where it’s broken with insane rubber banding. It’s of course possible PD might nail an excellent and quite challenging AI but it’s not something I’d bet any money on or put faith in, that’s all.
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That does explain it, as it's certainly possible and without rubber-banding, now as for PD being able to manage it...

...well I personally wouldn't put money on it.
 

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