If GT5 does incorporate a livery editor...

[SlipZtrEm]

What I fail to grasp is how people can write off a livery editor with the reasoning that the "essentials" (the physics, car count, track count) are the only thing that matters. If GT has a solid base, with good realistic physics and highly respectable counts for both cars and tracks, that's precisely the reason it should add more features. The only reason it shouldn't is if the foundation isn't sound to begin with. CoolColJ's post, really. If you think GT5's physics are excellent, which you've said on numerous occasions, then it's foundation is set, it has the basics down.

Would you argue online play is fluff? No? Why not? An online ability, if done poorly, is almost more damaging to a franchise these days than the other things. It is a de facto standard feature this generation, a game simply needs it to be competitive. A livery editor doesn't directly affect the gameplay itself, in the sense that online, or solid physics, might, but it is a highly in-demand feature, and many other competitors have no problem incorporating it into their games. It also, as has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, fits perfectly into Sony's "Play Create Share" marketing push. It could even lighten the load on PD a bit; we just need a "SuperGT GT-R", leave it to the community to paint every possible livery in the series, past and present, plus yearly updates, plus fantasy ones.

Analog hits a good point too; people will always demand more tracks. Hand them a dozen more, they'll ask for the next dozen. Same with cars. So why not continue spreading into new areas to attract different people?

As for Mr Frappy/Gryzor/TokyoDrift, his basic argument can be applied to any aspect of the game; I would rather they spent less time on (Karts/Random Track Generator/City Tracks) and instead focused on (Eliminating the two tier issue/Cockpits in all cars/Livery Editor), because I feel the first group is a waste of time. Go ahead, pick and choose whichever options in the brackets.

The easiest possible way to settle the livery issue would be a simple "Do Not Display Custom Liveries" checkbox in the options. Everybody gets their own choice, and the anti-livery people wouldn't have their fragile little sense of "reality" rocked by a particularly nasty paint job. Y'know, while they're playing a video game.

 

[eSZee]

What I fail to grasp is how people can write off a livery editor with the reasoning that the "essentials" (the physics, car count, track count) are the only thing that matters.

Beats me. To me, sound is probably the 2nd most important thing in a game of this type. The immersion it provides and the feedback it gives are essential to knowing what your car is doing. The sound in GT5P and what we've seen from GT5 leaves much to be desired yet not a lot of people complain about it or give it much thought. Makes you think about what the majority here actually find essential when graphics and car/track numbers seem to be the most discussed subjects.

As for Mr Frappy/Gryzor/TokyoDrift

Seriously?

 

[analog]

Analog hits a good point too; people will always demand more tracks. Hand them a dozen more, they'll ask for the next dozen. Same with cars. So why not continue spreading into new areas to attract different people?

I once read a Formula 1 engineer describe the typical racecar driver when faced with a newly designed car, after completing the first couple of laps they come back and complain the car has too much power, after completing some more laps they come back and complain it hasn't enough power.

I guess when faced with a game like GT5 for the first time it's overwhelming in the amount of content it offers but after a few months the surprise factor has gone and even further down the line you find it can become repetitive.
If they simply added a few more tracks and cars which PD themselves have to create this will only extend it for a short while as the same thing will happen again if the game only depends on content to be passively consumed instead of also being partly created by the players.

Allowing people to be creative will work in multiple ways, keeping people entertained by the game whilst creating and offering new content created by other players to be used by those who just passively consume, etc. and the game could possibly become less dependant on new additions by PD to keep things fresh and relevant ( not making additions by PD irrelevant ofcourse ).
Compared to all available time consumed by creating endless amounts of tracks, the time consumed to create a creative tool once ( be it a livery or track editor ) might not only be less in the long run but offer endless new possibilties even to those only wanting new tracks ( as they can create them themselves or use ones already created by other players ).

Thing is when you're fully dependant on PD supplying new content you'll always crave more after a while and a newly added track will become just another one after a while.
If you're creative you don't need that much, just a tool to be able to make stuff, even a very limited one ( like the course maker ) as the challenge and therefore the true creative part is to get most out of it within those limitations.
So it also makes sense not only attracting new customers or satisfy "the artistic few only" ( like they've been spoiled for choice before ) but could enhance the game even to those who aren't directly going to use these tools.
However I can't see PD fully adopting the play, create and share mantra like some other games would but even a limited tool could be all we need.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Beats me. To me, sound is probably the 2nd most important thing in a game of this type. The immersion it provides and the feedback it gives are essential to knowing what your car is doing. The sound in GT5P and what we've seen from GT5 leaves much to be desired yet not a lot of people complain about it or give it much thought. Makes you think about what the majority here actually find essential when graphics and car/track numbers seem to be the most discussed subjects.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that, despite the solid physics, most Gran Turismo players are primarily concerned with those things, yeah. Graphics, and car count (track count is probably a fair amount after that). I'm including the casual gamers, though. And to be fair, PD hasn't really done anything to combat this; they've always focused on the eye candy and huge car library first and foremost.

As to what the majority here on the boards might find essential? Easy; only whatever GT includes. Anything it doesn't isn't important .

Seriously?

Same attitude, same join date as the other ban date. I could be wrong but it certainly seems that way, no?

Analog - You've presented an argument I really don't understand how people could refute 👍

 

[kartracer2442]

Love the Monster livery!, looks fantastic, it would also be great to see some Nascars with european/japanese car stickers like that Subaru, thats awesome!

Thanks a lot! I just found the Subaru teplate on the internet and thought it was cool, but being its GT5 i wouldn't put any Japanese/European stickers on my car since NASCAR does only use Impalas, Fusions, Camrys, and Chargers.

Oh and by the way i have some others like Nissan Skylines, Honda Civics, Maximas, and AMGs. Its fun to do stuff like that just to stand out.

 

[analog]

Same attitude, same join date as the other ban date. I could be wrong but it certainly seems that way, no?

You're not alone in suspecting it, in fact he doesn't actually make an attempt to deny it himself.........

 

[supersquirrel]

anyways.... im fine w/o livery editor. even though it would be nice.

 

[JoeH187]

You are going to get two things with the livery creator; really artistic people who do a superb job recreating paint schemes, and idiots designing inappropriate things on the cars. I say let us paint, change colors, etc, but no letters, numbers allowed.

 

[TexManZero]

You are going to get two things with the livery creator; really artistic people who do a superb job recreating paint schemes, and idiots designing inappropriate things on the cars. I say let us paint, change colors, etc, but no letters, numbers allowed.

You don't want a true livery editor, but you want to allow people to "paint?" That doesn't make sense.

Back when I had an Xbox I loved playing Forza Motorsport online, and I NEVER ran into anything inappropriate. I didn't even mind the "Hello Kitty" car I breezed passed at Sunset infield. There were a lot of great jobs, and I know a lot of people had fun with it.

I've said this many times; if you don't like the scheme in front of you, pass them! That's your job anyways.

 

[analog]

I've said this many times; if you don't like the scheme in front of you, pass them! That's your job anyways.

I like that motto very much.:tup:

 

[supersquirrel]

yep. what would you be doing stuck behind them?

 

[Ben Aracin]

They complain about the crap paint jobs, and yet if GT had a livery editor and someone put a big head Kaz on one side holding a wheel on the door of the drivers side and his sidekick translator guy on the passenger door holding his notepad like they were a rally team, the same folk complaining would practically beg for that person to send it to them......

 

[eSZee]

They complain about the crap paint jobs, and yet if GT had a livery editor and someone put a big head Kaz on one side holding a wheel on the door of the drivers side and his sidekick translator guy on the passenger door holding his notepad like they were a rally team, the same folk complaining would practically beg for that person to send it to them......

Post of the day!👍

 

[CoolColJ]

Speak for yourself, but I like my cars clean and slick looking

http://www.nogripracing.com/details.php?filenr=28206

http://www.virtualr.net/need-for-speed-shift-gt-style-mod-drift-fix-released/

Meanwhile, andrew84555 has released his GT Style Mod for Shift, removing all fictional racing liveries from the cars to give the title a more Gran Turismo-like look with cars sporting their normal showroom colors

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Speak for yourself, because I actually want options with regards to playing the game, not a lack of them.

What does that tell you that a mod that actually gets rid of visual customization will be referred to as a GT-style mod? It is known as the one that somehow still doesn't offer it.

Post of the day!👍

+1.

Can we call it "Dev's Law", because of his sig? If it's a feature not in the game, the general consensus is "it's not important anyways". Once it's in the game, the tune changes.

 

[eSZee]

Speak for yourself, but I like my cars clean and slick looking

http://www.nogripracing.com/details.php?filenr=28206

http://www.virtualr.net/need-for-speed-shift-gt-style-mod-drift-fix-released/

I don't really care what you like your cars to look like. I'd prefer to have a choice, sorry you disagree.

 

[CoolColJ]

In Shift, the bodykitted and tuned AI cars look sweet, the ones with liveries are putrid.
Clutters everything up and makes a busy mess

 

[Vincent Viceroy]

What I fail to grasp is how people can write off a livery editor with the reasoning that the "essentials" (the physics, car count, track count) are the only thing that matters. If GT has a solid base, with good realistic physics and highly respectable counts for both cars and tracks, that's precisely the reason it should add more features. The only reason it shouldn't is if the foundation isn't sound to begin with. CoolColJ's post, really. If you think GT5's physics are excellent, which you've said on numerous occasions, then it's foundation is set, it has the basics down.

Would you argue online play is fluff? No? Why not? An online ability, if done poorly, is almost more damaging to a franchise these days than the other things. It is a de facto standard feature this generation, a game simply needs it to be competitive. A livery editor doesn't directly affect the gameplay itself, in the sense that online, or solid physics, might, but it is a highly in-demand feature, and many other competitors have no problem incorporating it into their games. It also, as has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, fits perfectly into Sony's "Play Create Share" marketing push. It could even lighten the load on PD a bit; we just need a "SuperGT GT-R", leave it to the community to paint every possible livery in the series, past and present, plus yearly updates, plus fantasy ones.

Analog hits a good point too; people will always demand more tracks. Hand them a dozen more, they'll ask for the next dozen. Same with cars. So why not continue spreading into new areas to attract different people?

As for Mr Frappy/Gryzor/TokyoDrift, his basic argument can be applied to any aspect of the game; I would rather they spent less time on (Karts/Random Track Generator/City Tracks) and instead focused on (Eliminating the two tier issue/Cockpits in all cars/Livery Editor), because I feel the first group is a waste of time. Go ahead, pick and choose whichever options in the brackets.

The easiest possible way to settle the livery issue would be a simple "Do Not Display Custom Liveries" checkbox in the options. Everybody gets their own choice, and the anti-livery people wouldn't have their fragile little sense of "reality" rocked by a particularly nasty paint job. Y'know, while they're playing a video game.

The thing is it takes time to add features as well as rebuild an engine from scratch. It takes time to create Premium level cars so, in the end, they had to draw the line somewhere. It takes time to develop all the other systems that have priority over a livery editor that doesn't at all affect the way the game feels to play.

Overall a livery editor really is the least important aspect. I'd rather have more tracks to have a variation of races rather less tracks being run over and over again...essentially expediting the chance of it becoming stale and no amount of livery editor features would combat that.

 

[DestinyDanny]

Can we call it "Dev's Law", because of his sig? If it's a feature not in the game, the general consensus is "it's not important anyways". Once it's in the game, the tune changes.

IMO i find that quite offensive, not everyone on here is like that, it's gets annoying to see people talking down on others like that, this is supposed to be a community of GT lovers, theres no need for it.

 

[eSZee]

Overall a livery editor really is the least important aspect. I'd rather have more tracks to have a variation of races rather less tracks being run over and over again...essentially expediting the chance of it becoming stale and no amount of livery editor features would combat that.

Reverse lights are more important? Skidmarks are more important? 3d trees are more important? Backseats are more important? These are all small things that you will use/deal with for maybe 5 seconds during an entire race.
Forza liveries and storefront are pretty much the only things still alive with the FM community.
There are things I wish PD skipped in order to incorporate a livery editor since it would increase replay value more than many of GT5's features.

 

[sems4arsenal]

The thing is with Liver Editor is that unless used online it is pretty much useless for a game with a huge car count.Take Forza for example Yes a Custom Impreza with your name on it looks cool but put it in a race againt stock cars all as if they were just bought from their showrooms is plain daft.Also the fact that if they include Livery Editor and don't include it for the standard cars then that will kill off any hope of anyone driving them.But anyway I would really love to have this feature but Kaz still hasn't confirmed it's absence so one can only hope.

 

[Vincent Viceroy]

Reverse lights are more important? Skidmarks are more important? 3d trees are more important? Backseats are more important? These are all small things that you will use/deal with for maybe 5 seconds during an entire race.

Your dumbing this down to suit. All those are very low-level features with exception to backseats...which are a part of the cars. Should I assume that you are disregarding high-level features that add to gameplay and immersion moreover pictures drawn and stuck to the side of a panel?

Forza liveries and storefront are pretty much the only things still alive with the FM community.

Maybe there's a reason for that, eh!

 

[analog]

The thing is it takes time to add features as well as rebuild an engine from scratch. It takes time to create Premium level cars so, in the end, they had to draw the line somewhere. It takes time to develop all the other systems that have priority over a livery editor that doesn't at all affect the way the game feels to play.

Overall a livery editor really is the least important aspect. I'd rather have more tracks to have a variation of races rather less tracks being run over and over again...essentially expediting the chance of it becoming stale and no amount of livery editor features would combat that.

No a livery editor doesn't affect the driving part of the gameplay experience, I'll give you that, but being able to use a livery editor as a tool is a gameplay experience in itself and some might actually enjoy using it, surprise, surprise.

There's always going to be a demand for more and more tracks and cars, the availability of a livery editor doesn't change that but it will offer an element to keep a lot of people entertained and being able to express their creativity ( with whatever outcome, no need to call the fashion police because it doesn't suit your taste ) and thereby making the demand for ever more content slightly or significantly less as the game offers them to create their own content and in the process you won't have to only go around the same old tracks again and again to enjoy the game.

It won't diminish the demand of people who don't plan to use livery editor for ever more tracks and cars but it would satisfy those who instead of complain about the tracks becoming boring will find another way to have a great time using the same game.
That fact alone is worth development time and resources in my book.

To be clear, anyone here can probably agree you cannot have too many tracks or cars, but adding another element to the gameplay will simply extend the gameplay for those who use it as opposed to never being able to completely fulfill demands made by everyone.

 

[eSZee]

Your dumbing this down to suit. All those are very low-level features with exception to backseats...which are a part of the cars. Should I assume that you are disregarding high-level features that add to gameplay and immersion moreover pictures drawn and stuck to the side of a panel?


Maybe there's a reason for that, eh!

Erm, you said there are features in the game that are more important which I didn't disagree with. I gave you some that are not very important but are still in the game over a livery editor and I'm somehow dumbing it down? If you wanna talk immersion lets talk about the sound engine and what amazing things we've seen from that so far. How do backseats immerse me into the game? Why would I be looking in the backseat when I have a rear view mirror to look at? Why would skidmarks immerse me into the game? Or reverse lights? Those aren't game play features to me, those are REPLAY MODE features to me.
But whatever, in the end this is a pretty dumb argument. It's not in the game so why argue about it.

 

[Jedi2016]

IMO i find that quite offensive, not everyone on here is like that, it's gets annoying to see people talking down on others like that, this is supposed to be a community of GT lovers, theres no need for it.

The sad part is that he's right. There's always exceptions, of course, and there's no need to get bent out of shape when you're one of them. Quite the opposite, in fact, he's agreeing with you.

The point he's making is against the people who are violently against such things, but then accept it with open arms once it's available. Hypocrites through and through, and there are plenty of them here.

What I don't understand is why people would be against extra features at all. They actually want the game to offer less to its players. I don't get that at all. Oh, they'll complain endlessly about how they'd rather have more cars and tracks than a livery editor, sure. But that's a ridiculous argument, because the programmers who would be assigned to create the editor wouldn't be the same people making cars and tracks. These people seem to believe that physics programmers and car modelers would be pulled from their normal duties to create a freeform texture editor, something they wouldn't have the first clue how to do. No.. if such a thing as the livery editor existed, it would be created by an entirely separate team from the rest of the developers and would have no impact whatsoever on the creation and inclusion of cars and tracks.

I think most of the argument against the livery editor comes from fanboys. Forza has a livery editor, so it has to suck royally and offer nothing except the chance for people to paint genitalia on their Ferraris. Nothing could be further from the truth, and these people would realize that if they'd ever gotten the chance to actually do it.

And if they don't want to see liveries? Easy solution.. PD just needs to add an option to the online game to turn opponent liveries on or off. Simple. Then, if you hated it that much, you wouldn't have to see it at all, much less use it. But let the rest of us have our playtime.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Reverse lights are more important? Skidmarks are more important? 3d trees are more important?

You forgot "accurately modeled dandelions" on Fuji (ask CoolColJ) and grass clippings. Oh, and the clamoring for the return of backfires, so the Photomode sub-forum can be bogged down by repetitive images of it, over and over.

Viceroy, if a livery editor was truly "least important", Kaz wouldn't even acknowledge disappointment at not including it. And other games wouldn't be including it on the regular. Analog's post above says all I'd really like to say, the only addition I can add is that if it were set up similarly to FM3 with a storefront, it'd be even more useful, because even if you couldn't, say, recreate the Gulf livery McLaren F1, somebody could, and for a small fee, you could buy that livery.

I'd take issue with a game forcing me to drive in fantasy liveries I don't like. A livery editor doesn't do this; I don't care if somebody else wants to drive around in some hideous Justin Bieber car. It's their choice, I'm just happy with mine.

 

[Vincent Viceroy]

No a livery editor doesn't affect the driving part of the gameplay experience, I'll give you that, but being able to use a livery editor as a tool is a gameplay experience in itself and some might actually enjoy using it, surprise, surprise.

There's always going to be a demand for more and more tracks and cars, the availability of a livery editor doesn't change that but it will offer an element to keep a lot of people entertained and being able to express their creativity ( with whatever outcome, no need to call the fashion police because it doesn't suit your taste ) and thereby making the demand for ever more content slightly or significantly less as the game offers them to create their own content and in the process you won't have to only go around the same old tracks again and again to enjoy the game.

It won't diminish the demand of people who don't plan to use livery editor for ever more tracks and cars but it would satisfy those who instead of complain about the tracks becoming boring will find another way to have a great time using the same game.
That fact alone is worth development time and resources in my book.

I didn't say people wouldn't enjoy using a livery editor...indeed having a livery editor included in GT5 would be swell but considering the work undergone so far to push the series on, to push the genre forward as well as right many of the wrongs people have lamented about in the last few years has taken it's time.

The principle reason GT games exist is because of Kaz's love of cars...and he wanted people to be able to experience them as best as possible. That 'pure' experience excludes pictures stuck to the side of a car. To me that's the underlying reason why a livery editor seems to be the least important aspect of Kaz's vision.

Moving forward Kaz has implied that GT is now an operating system. Now, to me, that implies he can update specific areas of the game as well as add in new features as and when he feels is the right time. Seeing Kaz has acknowledged a livery editor is wanted by GT players...it could come down the line or just be a brand new feature in GT6.

Unfortunately I think that's more likely to be a new feature in GT6...but you never know.

 

[eSZee]

You forgot "accurately modeled dandelions" on Fuji (ask CoolColJ) and grass clippings. Oh, and the clamoring for the return of backfires, so the Photomode sub-forum can be bogged down by repetitive images of it, over and over.

Viceroy, if a livery editor was truly "least important", Kaz wouldn't even acknowledge disappointment at not including it. And other games wouldn't be including it on the regular. Analog's post above says all I'd really like to say, the only addition I can add is that if it were set up similarly to FM3 with a storefront, it'd be even more useful, because even if you couldn't, say, recreate the Gulf livery McLaren F1, somebody could, and for a small fee, you could buy that livery.

I'd take issue with a game forcing me to drive in fantasy liveries I don't like. A livery editor doesn't do this; I don't care if somebody else wants to drive around in some hideous Justin Bieber car. It's their choice, I'm just happy with mine.

They also wouldn't have included it on a list of hopeful features some 3-5 years ago. It can't be that insignificant if they wanted it in the game from the start.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

^ Excellent point.

The principle reason GT games exist is because of Kaz's love of cars...and he wanted people to be able to experience them as best as possible. That 'pure' experience excludes pictures stuck to the side of a car. To me that's the underlying reason why a livery editor seems to be the least important aspect of Kaz's vision.

I'd have an easier time buying this line of reasoning if it wasn't for PD's habit of making up fantasy LM cars (or the ChromeLines, or the stealths). You were saying something about purity?

 

[Vincent Viceroy]

Erm, you said there are features in the game that are more important which I didn't disagree with. I gave you some that are not very important but are still in the game over a livery editor and I'm somehow dumbing it down? If you wanna talk immersion lets talk about the sound engine and what amazing things we've seen from that so far. How do backseats immerse me into the game? Why would I be looking in the backseat when I have a rear view mirror to look at? Why would skidmarks immerse me into the game? Or reverse lights? Those aren't game play features to me, those are REPLAY MODE features to me.
But whatever, in the end this is a pretty dumb argument. It's not in the game so why argue about it.

The features you listed are probably easier to implement i.e. modelling a 3D tree or adding a light source or adding skidmarks seem to be less time consuming than creating a new OS within the game engine to run a livery editor system and get it working to a satisfactory level in-game. I mean that's probably why they can add many of those items that have a direct relationship with the gameplay experience rather than one complex system that doesn't.