If GT5 does incorporate a livery editor...

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You forgot "accurately modeled dandelions" on Fuji (ask CoolColJ) and grass clippings. Oh, and the clamoring for the return of backfires, so the Photomode sub-forum can be bogged down by repetitive images of it, over and over.
I don't know why you are being so sarcastic when I can't see others doing that. No need.

Viceroy, if a livery editor was truly "least important", Kaz wouldn't even acknowledge disappointment at not including it. And other games wouldn't be including it on the regular. Analog's post above says all I'd really like to say, the only addition I can add is that if it were set up similarly to FM3 with a storefront, it'd be even more useful, because even if you couldn't, say, recreate the Gulf livery McLaren F1, somebody could, and for a small fee, you could buy that livery.
I have already acknowledged in response to analog Kaz's desire for a livery editor.

Other games make the mistake of including a livery editor on console in response to Forza*. Off hand I recall Ferrari Challnege and Supercar Challenge having a livery editor and on both counts it's just not that good because it's not very flexible and it's extremely limiting.

*I'm sticking to sims on console rather than starting to compare a sim like GT to an arcade orientated game like NfS or PC sims that have always offered more features. I think that's only fair.

The StoreFront, as I have expressed before, has 1% of anything worthwhile buying i.e. it's not the greatest ambassador for the idea, in my opinion.

I'd take issue with a game forcing me to drive in fantasy liveries I don't like. A livery editor doesn't do this; I don't care if somebody else wants to drive around in some hideous Justin Bieber car. It's their choice, I'm just happy with mine.
IIRC GT5 doesn't force any liveries on to you bar the cars that have been specifically chosen by PD as tuned versions. There are normal versions of those cars.
 
They also wouldn't have included it on a list of hopeful features some 3-5 years ago. It can't be that insignificant if they wanted it in the game from the start.
It doesn't matter what they include on a list. That list is representative of a vision for the future of the series and what they want to achieve this generation. A livery editor is on there but it's not in GT5.

To me that smacks of a lack of priority based on resources or capability in context to everything else PD have done.
 
I'd have an easier time buying this line of reasoning if it wasn't for PD's habit of making up fantasy LM cars (or the ChromeLines, or the stealths). You were saying something about purity?
Not sure what you are trying to say here. I mean Kaz is a car enthusiast...that's the point of these other cars. He tinkers with cars...so he does it in GT.

What relevance this has to a brand new feature is unknown.
 
I don't know why you are being so sarcastic when I can't see others doing that. No need.

No sarcasm; PD literally had a designer (or multiple, who knows) incorporate dandelions into Fuji.


Other games make the mistake of including a livery editor on console in response to Forza*. Off hand I recall Ferrari Challnege and Supercar Challenge having a livery editor and on both counts it's just not that good because it's not very flexible and it's extremely limiting.

*I'm sticking to sims on console rather than starting to compare a sim like GT to an arcade orientated game like NfS or PC sims that have always offered more features. I think that's only fair.

I agree it's only worth keeping the comparisons to console games. PC games have always been far more open-ended for modification, and it's not fair to compare that to consoles. However, NFS being arcade-oriented doesn't change the validity of it's livery editor. We all question the more... Fast and Furious style of upgrades, but a solid livery editor is a solid livery editor, regardless of which way the physics lean.

The StoreFront, as I have expressed before, has 1% of anything worthwhile buying i.e. it's not the greatest ambassador for the idea, in my opinion.

1% for you. For fans of Pikachu or Transformers or Lady Gaga... possibly not. I know, we all shudder and recoil in terror at the idea of that, but we are the minority. For the casual (and younger) gamers, they'll love the idea of pasting their car with whatever flavour of the week their little heart desires. It's their car, they can enjoy it their way. Provided it's not something wholly offensive, I don't see how giving someone one more outlet to enjoy the game, and prolong it's playability, is a bad thing.

IIRC GT5 doesn't force any liveries on to you bar the cars that have been specifically chosen by PD as tuned versions. There are normal versions of those cars.

Hello 350Z LM Edition, with your IMSA 300ZX-mimicking livery. Hello RX-8 LM Edition, with your faux-787B livery. If I wanted a race-worthy 350Z or RX-8, one that didn't look like simply a street car with a wing thrown on it, those were my only options (woops, other than the SuperGT 350Z). PD has shown they aren't opposed to the idea of fantasy cars and liveries, so why limit it to just what they deem worthy? Because they're not even opposed to users creating their own things for the game; look at the track creator.

To be open, I even like those liveries; it's something similar to what I would do, take a manufacturer's racing history and apply it to new forms. Kaz is obviously open to the idea.

(Also, multi-quote is your friend)

Not sure what you are trying to say here. I mean Kaz is a car enthusiast...that's the point of these other cars. He tinkers with cars...so he does it in GT.

What relevance this has to a brand new feature is unknown.

What I was getting at specifically was: "That 'pure' experience excludes pictures stuck to the side of a car". That's a lousy line of reasoning to say Kaz is all for "purity" in a game when he's fine with tacking on gaudy stripes and the GT logo on a classic 300SL.
 
To me that smacks of a lack of priority based on resources or capability in context to everything else PD have done.

That isn't necessarily related to priority but maybe they're just having trouble implementing or designing a livery editor they're fully satisfied with themselves.
I do think they will implement a type of livery editor sooner or later ( in fact GT5 theoretically isn't excluded yet as Kaz said "probably not" ) and I think they want it to represent their take on this concept without it seeming to be a blatant Forza rip-off.
I'm betting it will be more limited compared to other games but at least even a limited ( or original and cutting edge regarding other aspects we simply don't know ) one will offer some choice and ability we now don't have.

And if they can't do that, at least offer a paintshop for now.
 
Without including some sort of livery editor, and a gameplay mechanic likely to be almost identical to the previous games, then it's not pushing the genre on in any area other than graphics, imo.

I'm not using that as a criticism, but a GT game is a GT game. It's hardly going to re-invent the wheel.
 
Without including some sort of livery editor, and a gameplay mechanic likely to be almost identical to the previous games, then it's not pushing the genre on in any area other than graphics, imo.

I'm not using that as a criticism, but a GT game is a GT game. It's hardly going to re-invent the wheel.

How is a livery editor going to push genre at all for car games? Other games have it, and they don't push the genre. It's purely a visual plaything for people to express themselves.

Pushing the genre in car games probably might have more to do with the actual driving me thinks. Something like a strap on G-Force generator :)
 
Pushing the genre in car games, probably might have more to do with the actual driving me thinks.

You mean like the genre-pushing B-spec or PhotoMode features?

I'm not using that as a criticism, but a GT game is a GT game. It's hardly going to re-invent the wheel.

Well credit where credit's due, GT did re-invent the wheel once big time, in fact you could argue they basically re-invented the whole racing game genre back in the late nineties.
 
How is a livery editor going to push genre at all for car games? Other games have it, and they don't push the genre.

To say FM doesn't push the genre when it offers anyone the chance to create race liveries within the confines of a console game is pure ignorance.

It was the inclusion of a paint editor that would have lured most GT fans to buy FM, I reckon. It would have been a generic racing game without it and struggled to make a second entry to the series.

As to my post, it was poor wording; I meant that even without a livery editor GT5 doesn't really innovate - track editors aren't new and a photomode is now a genre staple. B-Spec is a couple of games old now, as well.
 
To say FM doesn't push the genre when it offers anyone the chance to create race liveries within the confines of a console game is pure ignorance.

It was the inclusion of a paint editor that would have lured most GT fans to buy FM, I reckon. It would have been a generic racing game without it and struggled to make a second entry to the series.

As to my post, it was poor wording; I meant that even without a livery editor GT5 doesn't really innovate - track editors aren't new and a photomode is now a genre staple. B-Spec is a couple of games old now, as well.

I think it was the combination of a livery editor / more supercars / robust online feature that originally helped Forza as the sort of "XBox GT" upon release. It certainly got me interested, especially after the whole fiasco with GT4's Online and it getting yanked at the 11th hour.

B-Spec was only just introduced in GT4; it was planned for GT3 (as we now know with the name), but no, it's only been in one game. That and an in-depth Photomode were the last real innovations the GT series brought to console racers. GT5 has... hmmm. We'll have to judge on release, but so far, nothing truly unique and new to the genre. It's a giant mixing pot, cherry-picking certain features that have been done before, and implementing them to varying degrees of success. I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with that, and like Analog said, GT is largely responsible for the complete redefining of the genre back on PSX (which is probably why it'll always be my first choice), but for a game touted as a "revolution" in its press material, I expect something heretofore unseen.
 
(Also, multi-quote is your friend)
Yeah...I'd like to apologise for this. I don't understand what it does because I press it and nothing happens. I also press it and then press Quote and nothing happens differently. In other words HELP!! :lol:

No sarcasm; PD literally had a designer (or multiple, who knows) incorporate dandelions into Fuji.
Really? I mean I'm surprised because it's not only Fuji that has flowers. Would have thought that a normal modeller within PD would be doing that, not a specific person employed to do that. Unless you mean it's outsourced.

I agree it's only worth keeping the comparisons to console games. PC games have always been far more open-ended for modification, and it's not fair to compare that to consoles. However, NFS being arcade-oriented doesn't change the validity of it's livery editor. We all question the more... Fast and Furious style of upgrades, but a solid livery editor is a solid livery editor, regardless of which way the physics lean.
Yeah...absolutely. I'm sure that if PD had additional time (perish the thought) to create a livery editor on-par with, say, Forza he would give it the green light because it offers players a fantastic creative experience.

1% for you. For fans of Pikachu or Transformers or Lady Gaga... possibly not. I know, we all shudder and recoil in terror at the idea of that, but we are the minority. For the casual (and younger) gamers, they'll love the idea of pasting their car with whatever flavour of the week their little heart desires. It's their car, they can enjoy it their way. Provided it's not something wholly offensive, I don't see how giving someone one more outlet to enjoy the game, and prolong it's playability, is a bad thing.
I was specifically talking about the quality of the user created content, not the theme of the content. For example I'd do a search for decals and it recovers 000's of results. You have to scroll down many, many pages before you get to anything of note.

I don't think it's because good quality stuff doesn't exists but I do think that the structure could be improved to promote high-end creations done with heart and soul. Even the simplest of logo's can look pretty bad.

I suppose that's another facet of a livery editor PD would need to think about.

Hello 350Z LM Edition, with your IMSA 300ZX-mimicking livery. Hello RX-8 LM Edition, with your faux-787B livery. If I wanted a race-worthy 350Z or RX-8, one that didn't look like simply a street car with a wing thrown on it, those were my only options (woops, other than the SuperGT 350Z). PD has shown they aren't opposed to the idea of fantasy cars and liveries, so why limit it to just what they deem worthy? Because they're not even opposed to users creating their own things for the game; look at the track creator.
Sorry fella, I don't follow. I implied that you can buy a stock version of a car that doesn't have liveries already on them. PD tuned versions might have simple/repeat liveries to signify it's not a stock version.

To be open, I even like those liveries; it's something similar to what I would do, take a manufacturer's racing history and apply it to new forms. Kaz is obviously open to the idea.
To be fair it would have been nice to at least have the ability to stamp manufacturer decals on to your car.

What I was getting at specifically was: "That 'pure' experience excludes pictures stuck to the side of a car". That's a lousy line of reasoning to say Kaz is all for "purity" in a game when he's fine with tacking on gaudy stripes and the GT logo on a classic 300SL.
I don't think I've seen that 300SL but please don't confuse the attributes that defines the experience with an ability to design liveries. I don't think that's at all fair. That's why I said that. You could have the best livery editor in the world but if the game is flat as a pancake it's not going to help.
 
To say FM doesn't push the genre when it offers anyone the chance to create race liveries within the confines of a console game is pure ignorance.

It was the inclusion of a paint editor that would have lured most GT fans to buy FM, I reckon. It would have been a generic racing game without it and struggled to make a second entry to the series.

As to my post, it was poor wording; I meant that even without a livery editor GT5 doesn't really innovate - track editors aren't new and a photomode is now a genre staple. B-Spec is a couple of games old now, as well.

So why does games like Kaido series have a livery system on the PS2? Even a number plate editor. It didn't exactly push the genre did it? There are probably other games put on the PS2 that had it as well, I dunno, I haven't played all games out there.
Hell it even has laser scanned tracks - as seen on the promo vid @ 2:26!

The editing is pretty extensive
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I'm still trying to figure out why any of you would want fewer features in the game. Especially when it's something that a lot of other games have. "Because it's GT and GT doesn't need it" isn't an excuse.
 
Yeah...I'd like to apologise for this. I don't understand what it does because I press it and nothing happens. I also press it and then press Quote and nothing happens differently. In other words HELP!! :lol:

Yeah, it's not entirely clear at first. Click the button, when the green symbol shows up, it's worked, and continue clicking on however many posts you plan on responding to. Then on the last one, just click the regular quote button (even if you've already hit the multi-quote on that post). It should work alright, though tabbed browsing can play havoc if you're trying to deal with more than one thread at a time :).

Really? I mean I'm surprised because it's not only Fuji that has flowers. Would have thought that a normal modeller within PD would be doing that, not a specific person employed to do that. Unless you mean it's outsourced.

No no, not outsourced, and I doubt they have a particular modeler with the title "flower modeler" ;). I just meant that since Prologue, they've updated the track, and someone deemed it necessary to include dandelions on the side of the track that react realistically when cars go by. I just find that wholly unnecessary... except that I keep forgetting GT is quite heavily biased towards eye candy.

Yeah...absolutely. I'm sure that if PD had additional time (perish the thought) to create a livery editor on-par with, say, Forza he would give it the green light because it offers players a fantastic creative experience.

Almost six years between games isn't enough?

I was specifically talking about the quality of the user created content, not the theme of the content. For example I'd do a search for decals and it recovers 000's of results. You have to scroll down many, many pages before you get to anything of note.

I don't think it's because good quality stuff doesn't exists but I do think that the structure could be improved to promote high-end creations done with heart and soul. Even the simplest of logo's can look pretty bad.

I suppose that's another facet of a livery editor PD would need to think about.

Hm, true. A simple rating system (out of five stars or something) would separate the wheat from the chaff, provided search results could be sorted by rating. Another solution (though more a work-around)... we are on the biggest unofficial GT forum out there, surely you'd hear/see the quality paintjobs just because they'd come up here pretty often. This community seems capable of finding anything :lol:.

Sorry fella, I don't follow. I implied that you can buy a stock version of a car that doesn't have liveries already on them. PD tuned versions might have simple/repeat liveries to signify it's not a stock version.

Yeah, I got what you implied, and that was my major criticism; if I want a non-stock version, I'm stuck with it's looks. Sure, I like the RX-8 LM's 787B-inspired paintjob, but I'd love to be able to make it look how I want it to.

Want a good example of what I mean about a livery editor? Just Google Image Search "Spec Miata". Some guys on the board I frequent did a series in FM3 simulating that, and it was cool that they all had the number boxes and then their own little liveries. I'll never argue that some of the nasty liveries out there might actually lessen the feeling of immersion, but for this, it just added to it, the replays really did feel like watching a Spec Miata race. In GT5, without a livery editor, it just won't look quite the same.

To be fair it would have been nice to at least have the ability to stamp manufacturer decals on to your car.

It would be... and some basic shapes... and the ability to export the image to my PC to work on and then back to PS3... ;).


I don't think I've seen that 300SL but please don't confuse the attributes that defines the experience with an ability to design liveries. I don't think that's at all fair. That's why I said that. You could have the best livery editor in the world but if the game is flat as a pancake it's not going to help.

Hmm, I still think it's fair, though. People talk about the lack of livery editor like they know Kaz personally would rather it not be in there, on some mistaken idea that he prefers the "purity" of not having liveries. But he has no problems foisting his own ideas of liveries on people, so it's an odd double-standard to assume. The SL is the easiest example for me because it was almost universally disliked when unveiled on here.

And the thing is; I don't think anybody remotely sane will call GT "flat as a pancake". It's going to be huge. A livery editor would do nothing but compliment that :).

I'm still trying to figure out why any of you would want fewer features in the game. Especially when it's something that a lot of other games have. "Because it's GT and GT doesn't need it" isn't an excuse.

It's the easiest way for a certain type of member around here to justify a feature not being included in the game.

How about interior damage? Already been done? I'm not sure.

Have we seen that yet? Honest question, I may have missed it in this scramble with the newly discovered demo. Either way though... notice how that's the only "new feature" we can really come up with?
 

Does the in-game editor allow small shapes and the flexibility to create almost anything?

Because that's where FM has been successful, in allowing such freedom with in-game shapes and the ability to end up with almost anything you can think of.
 
Does the in-game editor allow small shapes and the flexibility to create almost anything?

Because that's where FM has been successful, in allowing such freedom with in-game shapes and the ability to end up with almost anything you can think of.

Nope, this is on the PS2 afterall! :)

For dressing up you have 3 things -
1) You can create a custom paint - expensive
2) You get sponsors in the game and they will pay you cash if you apply their logos on your car. You get a choice of 16 main areas to apply them on the car, which are further subdivided into smaller areas in those.
3) The livery thing as shown

The 2nd option would make sense in GT5's career mode. Getting sponsors, applying their decals etc for a race series and season, and getting cash/parts in return
 
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hm I'd choose something simple like this...

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Why I want a livery editor.

It will feel great pulling up online in a car I worked 8 hours on in customizing, so when people say "Nice car", it will feel rewarding. It won't feel nice when I've worked 8 hours on an endurance to unlock a car and when I pull out the prize car, instead of a compliment everyone pulls out theirs. (And it just so happens to only come in one or 2 colors)

I think it would be cool to have one R35 in my garage that when I'm done driving in red, I can paint it blue. It won't be cool to be limited to 5-8 colors and to have variety I have to have 5-8 R35's in my garage.

One of the greatest things about GT, is that when you've done something amazing in a race, you can save the replay and always look back on an event. Being able to have liveries would enhance this because you can have one Murcielago, and change the look of it monthly, weekly, or as often as you choose, and make each replay that much more memorable, easily standing out from the rest of the pack.

Racing Teams can emerge and make their own liveries with their own names. Instead of resorting to being recognized by make, and color.

GT5 gives you 1,000+ cars, A livery editor gives you infinite.
 
Thank god there is no livery editor, most people have absolutely no taste, and I hate seeing nice cars covered in ****.

There is enough ****** looking poorly modded cars floating around in real life.
 
Thank god there is no livery editor, most people have absolutely no taste, and I hate seeing nice cars covered in ****.

There is enough ****** looking poorly modded cars floating around in real life.

So, does that mean you are one of the very few people in the world that do? Then maybe you should apply to PD, and work on the game "Taste Master Fade".

As for the latter half of your statement. That's what the "Display Liveries Yes/No?" check-box (that many members have been speaking of) would be for! This way your pristine "taste" in vehicles be will kept, and everyone else can enjoy their vehicles to their own liking.
 
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Thank god there is no livery editor, most people have absolutely no taste, and I hate seeing nice cars covered in ****.

There is enough ****** looking poorly modded cars floating around in real life.

No GT6 for you then......
 
Thank god there is no livery editor, most people have absolutely no taste, and I hate seeing nice cars covered in ****.

There is enough ****** looking poorly modded cars floating around in real life.

It must be very claustrophobic walking down that narrow mind of yours.
 
It must be very claustrophobic walking down that narrow mind of yours.

So because he doesn't agree with one feature, you label him narrow minded? I'm sure you don't like or agree with some things in GT5 but we don't jump to conclusions and call you narrow minded.
 
Mhh I used the livery editor in FM3 only 10 mins. For me it´s a big waste of time because I can do more important things in that 10-20 hrs for only one new designed car... But I must say I don´t see FM3 as a seerious game (arcade physics and no logitech support), so maybe that was the reason I spent no time on the livery...

If GT5 would have some livery editor maybe I would spent a bit more time on it...

Anyway I must say that the livery editor in FM3 is nice and the marketplace is a very good idea... Maybe in GT6
 
So because he doesn't agree with one feature, you label him narrow minded? I'm sure you don't like or agree with some things in GT5 but we don't jump to conclusions and call you narrow minded.

Yes? The way he went about it it makes him very closed minded. It isn't a matter of his opinion being different. It's a matter of FADE not being open to a livery editor and him dismissing anyone else view. How is that not being narrow minded?
 
The whole purpose of a livery editor for me is giving the ability to recreate real life race cars that are not already incorporated into the game.

You can't get vvTHISvv sort of quality replica on any game other than Forza.

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Real life source

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Just imagine having the chance to recreate and race your favourite cars that you see on TV, whether it's the JMB F430GT, Patron Tequila 911 or Amprex Murcielago.

GT5 is going to have a few race versions of most cars, but there are so many more.

This sort of thing is pushing the genre.

This is why many people started playing Forza 3 while waiting for GT5. I know I did.

IMO, GT5 will excel over Forza 3. Having a livery editor will just help GT5 to fly.
 
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