Immigration

[Touring Mars]

What am I supposed to think when the only source provided in support of the story is from a publication that is not only notorious for exaggeration and creating titillating headlines, but revels in that reputation?

I don't want to sound too mean here, but Google is your friend... you are quite right to be wary of the Daily Mail, but read Der Spiegel, The New York Times, BBC News, the Independent, the Telegraph or The Guardian and make up your own mind.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I don't want to sound too mean here, but Google is your friend... you are quite right to be wary of the Daily Mail, but read Der Spiegel, The New York Times, BBC News, the Independent, the Telegraph or The Guardian and make up your own mind.

I have, of course, done that. I refrained from posting because I wanted to see which direction the conversation went first.

 

[PR1VATEJ0KER]

Whatever happened to due process?

There is no room for due process when you have 1000 groping molesters.

And how do you know that "the gangs of roaming groping rapists" were exclusively made up of refugees?

I can't possibly know that. I don't claim to.

You jumped to a conclusion and a generalised on at that based on a story you heard in passing.

Generalization is how we survive.
It's why I wouldn't go socialize with homeless drug addicts by the docks, It's why I avoid all lions & tigers. Some may be lovely & docile, though I'll avoid taking the chance If I can.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

There is no room for due process when you have 1000 groping molesters.

So they're all guilty by association then?

I can't possibly know that.

And that's the problem. You said that you're against multiculturalism because of the actions of a few (even if it is a thousand, it is still a very small percentage of refugees and immigrants), but then you admit that you cannot prove that those few were even of multicultural backgrounds in the first place.

 

[NLxAROSA]

So they're all guilty by association then?

And that's the second thing that is wrong with the mayors statement: on top of victim-blaming, it's basically saying any large group of immigrant/refugee men is a threat to women, branding them all as potential rapists in one swoop.

They're doing some damage control right now (claiming it's only part of a bigger thing), but she couldnt have made that statement at a worse moment, and it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong however you look at it. It doesn't matter what bigger context it's part of or what side of the spectrum you're on.

 

[niky]

The police chief who gave the original "thousand" figure has backpedalled a bit, but it's very clear that the number of gang... gropers(?) is in the dozens, and there are possibly a hundred or more perpetrators. Police are claiming these are not new immigrants, but known trouble-makers who, despite being immigrants, have been in the country for quite a while... many from Africa, and thus not related to the current wave.

Troublingly, despite some of these people being "known troublemakers", no arrests have been made. Even more troubling is that the whole thing was apparently pre-planned and coordinated.

-

Right Wing outlets are spinning this issue into "A THOUSAND MUSLIMS GANG-RAPE WOMEN ON NEW YEAR'S EVE", which is highly misleading, to say the least. But the reality is no less troubling.

 

[PR1VATEJ0KER]

So they're all guilty by association then?

If they choose not to leave that situation as in the case of the group of 1000 molesters, they are guilty by association in my opinion.

And that's the problem. You said that you're against multiculturalism because of the actions of a few (even if it is a thousand, it is still a very small percentage of refugees and immigrants), but then you admit that you cannot prove that those few were even of multicultural backgrounds in the first place.

I'm not completely against.
But there should definitely be some border control or some more care provided to prevent groups getting together like this.

Not far from my family home the Irish state bought an unused hotel & placed 60 Syrian families in it.
They are normal friendly people. Probably because they have been given respect & shelter.

It looks like Europe cannot provide for the amount of refugees we have taken.
If we don't have the resources to take more immigrants, we just have to say no.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If they choose not to leave that situation as in the case of the group of 1000 molesters, they are guilty by association in my opinion.

Do you have any idea how much space a thousand people take up? It's a lot. So it's entirely plausible that when you have a thousand people in one very public area like a train station, the people at one end of the room have no idea what is happening at the other. However, you have gone and decided that all one thousand of them are equally guilty. And in that example, I am limiting the crowd size to one thousand; on New Year's Eve, the crowd would have been considerably larger.

There is an expression thst the law is an ass. It is inflexible, and it is inflexible for a good reason - as soon as you start bending the rules to fit individual cases, you compromise the entire system. Every last person accused of these crimes is entitled to due process, but you have let your emotional response dictate what you think the appropriate punishment is. So it's a good thing that you're not writing the law.

 

[PR1VATEJ0KER]

Do you have any idea how much space a thousand people take up? It's a lot. So it's entirely plausible that when you have a thousand people in one very public area like a train station, the people at one end of the room have no idea what is happening at the other. However, you have gone and decided that all one thousand of them are equally guilty. And in that example, I am limiting the crowd size to one thousand; on New Year's Eve, the crowd would have been considerably larger.

There is an expression thst the law is an ass. It is inflexible, and it is inflexible for a good reason - as soon as you start bending the rules to fit individual cases, you compromise the entire system. Every last person accused of these crimes is entitled to due process, but you have let your emotional response dictate what you think the appropriate punishment is. So it's a good thing that you're not writing the law.

Sometimes good people have to die.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Sometimes good people have to die.

Are you volunteering to be the first?

 

[Dennisch]

Refugee centers in Belgium are going to teach the mysterious art of respecting women to male refugees.

Edit.

And it seems that Belgium has a zero tolerance policy against immigrants who are found guilty of being sexual perps.

 

[Dennisch]

Die Welt reports that most of the suspect in Cologne are freshly imported refugees from Syria, and that the police team burdened with the case is trying to cover it up.

Now, if that's the case, they should be like Belgium and deport them with the first plane, boat, train, whatever, back to Syria.

 

[Touring Mars]

I've seen several reports over a cover-up... but one has to ask why would the police want to cover this up? I could understand it more if it were a politically motivated decision, but that seems pretty far-fetched. Perhaps a handful of newly arrived immigrants may have been involved in the incidents reported across Germany on NYE, but the more credible sources are reporting that the majority were North African immigrants who have been in the country for some time. It's also possible that such immigrants are deliberately stirring up trouble and implicating newly arrived refugees for whatever reason. To my mind, it seems very unlikely indeed that someone who had recently arrived in their promised land after surviving a long and traumatic journey would risk being kicked out of the country by behaving in this manner. The degree of planning and premeditation involved points to perpetrators who are somewhat familiar with the place and with the police, and who were already a part of a wider community/group of people they know well - that doesn't sound much like the likely behaviour of newly arrived refugees...

 

[Dennisch]

Whatever the case is, the reports all point towards North Africans / Arabs. Multiculturalism is going get a kick in the nuts again.

The cover up is probably a message from the politicians, trying to defend their failing plan to help everyone.

 

[Dotini]

Whatever the case is, the reports all point towards North Africans / Arabs. Multiculturalism is going get a kick in the nuts again.

The cover up is probably a message from the politicians, trying to defend their failing plan to help everyone do good

Lovely. I fixed one bit for you.

But one kick in the nuts is surely not enough. Some version of castration, NDE, or transcendental moral conversion is needed to rapidly switch a traditional culture of alpha males to the more neutered, tractable euro/beta model of the male.

 

[mister dog]

I've seen several reports over a cover-up... but one has to ask why would the police want to cover this up? I could understand it more if it were a politically motivated decision, but that seems pretty far-fetched.

Not far-fetched at all IMO, having it out in the open that these are recent arrivals would make said politicians look like outright fools in front of their own electors, and make a mockery of their 'wir shaffen das' policy that they hold so dearly. It would make them indirectly responsible for this chaos, and it could spell the end of their political careers.

It was already reported before this happened that German police had to try and keep refugee related incidents 'silent', + it was suspicious that it took almost a week for this news to come out, and even more that the police stated the day after the events that new years eve was 'peaceful and without incidents', knowing full well what happened the night before...

 

[TenEightyOne]

'wir shaffen das' policy that they hold so dearly.

The best colloquial translation in English (presuming you mean 'wir schaffen das') is "can-do", I'm not sure why it would be surprising to see any politician take a "can-do" approach. It's generally even less surprising to find that they actually can't.

it was suspicious that it took almost a week for this news to come out...

Except it actually took a few hours, but you were close. I think you're mistaking the delay in it being reported in Germany and it being picked up by national jobbers coming back to their desks from the Christmas holiday.

...and even more that the police stated the day after the events that new years eve was 'peaceful and without incidents', knowing full well what happened the night before...

No, they listed a large number of incidents. You'll note that other assaults weren't reported/recorded until after the standard press release issued at 9am on New Year's Day.

 

[mister dog]

Except it actually took a few hours, but you were close. I think you're mistaking the delay in it being reported in Germany and it being picked up by national jobbers coming back to their desks from the Christmas holiday.

Still strange that every major news outlet in Germany and subsequently Europe waited another 4 days, as its quite the item when 100 women get sexually assaulted in the middle of a European city centre... Ah yes then the argument is used that the news agencies were on holidays or 'verifying sources' right?

No, they listed a large number of incidents.

Here's the literal (google) translation of that press release:

Like last year, ran most of New Year celebrations peacefully on the bridges over the Rhine, in the center of Cologne and Leverkusen. The policeman walked mainly a case of personal injury offenses and disturbances.

From Thursday evening (31 December) 18 clock until this morning (January 1) by 6 clock saying its forces in the district of Cologne 94, in Leverkusen two dismissals. Previously went to the police 20 advertisements of property damage a (previous year: 25). Compared to last year the number of bodily harm of 78 rose slightly in Cologne. 80 times, the police took action. In Leverkusen officials posted 4 offenses of this kind (previous year: 5). The number of reported disturbances rose compared to last year (76, of which 8 in Leverkusen) at. Up to 6 clock the police walked in 80 cases, of which 7 in Leverkusen against excessively loud celebrations a.

Shortly before midnight, the station forecourt in the area of the stairway to the cathedral had to be vacated by uniformed. In order to prevent a stampede by firing of pyrotechnic munitions in about 1000 revelers, the officials began shortly to vacate the space area. Despite the unplanned celebration break, the use situation was relaxed - also because the police are well placed at critical locations and present showed. (st)

Basically: nothing out of the ordinary compared to last year, only some danger due to fireworks which were lit of on that station square. Bit contrary to reports of police officers stating it reminded them of civil war.

 

[Dennisch]

32 suspects are identified so far in Cologne. 18 of them are fresh import.

And here's where Germany can do the right thing. If those 18 are found guilty, send them back to Syria and wherever they came from. That sends a strong message.

Edit.

Similar reports are popping up in other German cities, and Zürich.

Seems like 'Wir haben es nicht gewusst' is back, and now it's the top of police and politicians.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I've seen several reports over a cover-up... but one has to ask why would the police want to cover this up?

It doesn't matter. That's the beauty of calling it a cover-up - the more the accused try to deny it, the more guilty they look. There's a complete lack of evidence of a cover-up, which is exactly what you would expect from a cover-up, and so the lack of evidence becomes evidence of itself. It plays into the hands of the alarmist brigade, the ones who want to demonise Muslims as being uncivilised brutes who are here to steal our women and corrode our values.

 

[Touring Mars]

At least one major TV channel in Germany (ZDF) has apologized for what it called 'an error of judgement' in delaying their reporting of the incidents in Cologne.

While right-wing groups are no doubt having a field day with this, the liberal media/commentators have to watch that they are not being too sensitive or politically correct when talking about the facts. While it would be wrong to demonize Arabs and/or Muslims in general, it is similarly wrong to ignore the fact that these attacks were perpetrated exclusively by gangs of Arab immigrants.

The issue of where these men are from is secondary to the point though - the fact that these people are showing a brazen disregard for the law, common decency and German/European culture and standards is the real problem here.

 

[Liquid]

perpetrated exclusively by gangs of Arab immigrants.

perpetrated by gangs

Is this such a large distinction? Anybody committing sexual assault is abusing someone's rights. Where they come from is, as you say, secondary. And even the old "well their culture promotes this" idea falls flat. If that is true, why does sexual assault occur in other cultures which do not promote it? Native born caucasians all over Europe and North America, and whatever international schools around the world, are "taught" or brought up in cultures where respect for women is the norm.

With my finger rubbing my tear duct I would say that if we are so moral then our own sexual offenders are worse because they should know better. They are rejecting their own culture.

Wait. Being able to reject your own culture is possible? Like, say, the innumerable people who don't subscribe to their home countries' theocratic fascism?
Sexual assault isn't necessarily bound by culture?

Wow, colour me surprised (!)

But don't misunderstand me. These are heinous crimes. If you're moving to another country, and you flagrantly disregard other people's liberties, then you are, for want of a better phrase, really taking the piss. I'd absolutely throw the book and, if there is no residency, deport them.

 

[Denur]

The German minister of internal affairs has stated that 31 people who have played a major role in this whole business have been identified by the German justice department: 9 Algerians, 8 Moroccans, 5 Iranians, 4 Syrians, 1 Serb, 1 American and 2 Germans. 18 of them are asylum seekers. Source

The Cologne chief of police has been sacked.

 

[mister dog]

The Cologne chief of police has been sacked.

Send on early retirement i read, so the scapegoat has been appointed. Bet my bottom dollar he was ordered beforehand to not have the news spread, but yes that is just my opinion not fact.

At least with a nice pension in return he won't hold too much of a grudge.

 

[niky]

The German minister of internal affairs has stated that 31 people who have played a major role in this whole business have been identified by the German justice department: 9 Algerians, 8 Moroccans, 5 Iranians, 4 Syrians, 1 Serb, 1 American and 2 Germans. 18 of them are asylum seekers. Source

The Cologne chief of police has been sacked.

So, technically... more of a multicultural gang? The right-wingers would have a field day.

The German government has got to come down on the perpetrators hard, to send the message that asylum is not diplomatic immunity. These idiots are making life harder for other minorities, at a time when ethnic tensions are already very high.

 

[Johnnypenso]

So, technically... more of a multicultural gang? The right-wingers would have a field day.

The German government has got to come down on the perpetrators hard, to send the message that asylum is not diplomatic immunity. These idiots are making life harder for other minorities, at a time when ethnic tensions are already very high.

The difficulty is going to be obtaining a conviction on a charge sufficient enough to warrant deportation. I imagine the scene was utter chaos and even witness identifications are going to be unreliable without a great deal of corroboration.

 

[mister dog]

The difficulty is going to be obtaining a conviction on a charge sufficient enough to warrant deportation. I imagine the scene was utter chaos and even witness identifications are going to be unreliable without a great deal of corroboration.

They already had to release a couple of them, for which they knew they were involved but due to a lack of evidence...

 

[novcze]

Is this such a large distinction? Anybody committing sexual assault is abusing someone's rights. Where they come from is, as you say, secondary. And even the old "well their culture promotes this" idea falls flat. If that is true, why does sexual assault occur in other cultures which do not promote it? Native born caucasians all over Europe and North America, and whatever international schools around the world, are "taught" or brought up in cultures where respect for women is the norm.

 

[mustafur]

This will be a big moment in terms of history of immigration, with strong political correctness combined with high immigration something will have to give to make a functional plan for the future.

Coming from countries with low functioning order to a fully orderly civilised 1st world country is a big culture change.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Bet my bottom dollar he was ordered beforehand to not have the news spread, but yes that is just my opinion not fact.

It's pretty much standard operating procedure for police forces around the world to remain silent on ongoing investigations. Should a case go to trial, any premature comments could influence a jury or be used by the defence.