Imports
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It's a sad day when people are getting beat by Sis. A testament to the utter driving skills present at a parking lot full of cones. But it's cool, times tables tell the whole story, right? Also I wasn't laughing at the fact that you claimed that the car had expensive suspension, but rather that you claimed they were "$20k yo." Anyone so strictly wrapped up in the world of autox is, by nature, fairly ignorant of the rest of the world of motorsports in general and your comments prove this.
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Keef
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IMO, the world of autocross is similar to other motorsports in some respects, and in others is far separated. The nature of the sports makes it that way, same as drag racing and oval racing in particular.
One thing that frustrates me about it is the emphasis on cost-cutting that sometimes is just sickening. But at the same time, sometimes very high-end, expensive hardware and engineering is utilized. As I type I'm flipping through Richard Newton's book, Autocross Performance Handbook, that I bought a couple years ago, and I've already found one picture in particular of an old M-series BMW's strut tower, showing the fluid reservoir for the guy's 4-way Moton coilovers. The caption says, "The four-way Motul [sic] shocks cost more than most of the cars I've raced. This is some very serious equipment. The good part of autocross competition, though, is that a good driver can usually beat good parts. That's why autocross is so much fun for average people."
Spelling error aside, the author acknowledges expensive parts, but goes on to say that better parts don't necessarily net better results. That's a rule that follows in most other, usually amateur, types of motorsport.
A local fellow races a dark gray EG hatch, with a lot of nice parts that you'd see on any other circuit-driven Civic. The main differences between his car and the other type of racer were that his wheels and tires were a bit smaller diameter, and slightly wider. He consistently won events, not because he had "$20k coilovers", but because he was a good driver. Very smooth to the point of looking slow. Most of the Miata guys were hacks, to be honest. Even cars with fat tires that stuck out past the fenders and parts galore couldn't win because they sucked. He raced on Lenso 14s with V710s, and he drove on the street with Team Dynamics. Pretty nasty, proper car. Besides the wheels there wasn't anything particularly autocross-specialized about the car, and he told me he'd driven a bunch of track days at Mid Ohio. How about that? A car that wasn't "purpose built" consistently beating "purpose built" autocross cars.
I guess my point here is that typical autocross modifications, like those ridiculous steelies and foot-wide slicks, don't necessarily make the car any better than what a good driver can muster. In the end, they end up looking ridiculous. Beyond that, the sport's nature, with constantly changing course designs, strict time limits, short runs, and soft track edges do not promote precise driving. Because it's nearly impossible to develop a routine and perfect a technique and know the track like the back of your hand, a common strategy is to cover for the deficiency - no fault of the driver's in many cases - by over-doing the car itself. If you shove enough tire under there you'll never screw up because the grip limits are astronomical. Luckily the Civic driver didn't fall for it, and instead was interested in honing his driving techniques elsewhere so he could bring his smooth, consistent style back to the autocross course where he could run for cheap and compete with all his friends.
Autocross is fun. It's inexpensive. But it's also very imprecise in general. I'm one to take pride in the perfection of my hobbies, and when I'm doing something I love like driving, "good enough" doesn't cut it. That's why I dislike the sporting aspect of autocross, though I do find it fun to toss the car around, be around cars, talk about cars, spin out occasionally, etc.
One thing that frustrates me about it is the emphasis on cost-cutting that sometimes is just sickening. But at the same time, sometimes very high-end, expensive hardware and engineering is utilized. As I type I'm flipping through Richard Newton's book, Autocross Performance Handbook, that I bought a couple years ago, and I've already found one picture in particular of an old M-series BMW's strut tower, showing the fluid reservoir for the guy's 4-way Moton coilovers. The caption says, "The four-way Motul [sic] shocks cost more than most of the cars I've raced. This is some very serious equipment. The good part of autocross competition, though, is that a good driver can usually beat good parts. That's why autocross is so much fun for average people."
Spelling error aside, the author acknowledges expensive parts, but goes on to say that better parts don't necessarily net better results. That's a rule that follows in most other, usually amateur, types of motorsport.
A local fellow races a dark gray EG hatch, with a lot of nice parts that you'd see on any other circuit-driven Civic. The main differences between his car and the other type of racer were that his wheels and tires were a bit smaller diameter, and slightly wider. He consistently won events, not because he had "$20k coilovers", but because he was a good driver. Very smooth to the point of looking slow. Most of the Miata guys were hacks, to be honest. Even cars with fat tires that stuck out past the fenders and parts galore couldn't win because they sucked. He raced on Lenso 14s with V710s, and he drove on the street with Team Dynamics. Pretty nasty, proper car. Besides the wheels there wasn't anything particularly autocross-specialized about the car, and he told me he'd driven a bunch of track days at Mid Ohio. How about that? A car that wasn't "purpose built" consistently beating "purpose built" autocross cars.
I guess my point here is that typical autocross modifications, like those ridiculous steelies and foot-wide slicks, don't necessarily make the car any better than what a good driver can muster. In the end, they end up looking ridiculous. Beyond that, the sport's nature, with constantly changing course designs, strict time limits, short runs, and soft track edges do not promote precise driving. Because it's nearly impossible to develop a routine and perfect a technique and know the track like the back of your hand, a common strategy is to cover for the deficiency - no fault of the driver's in many cases - by over-doing the car itself. If you shove enough tire under there you'll never screw up because the grip limits are astronomical. Luckily the Civic driver didn't fall for it, and instead was interested in honing his driving techniques elsewhere so he could bring his smooth, consistent style back to the autocross course where he could run for cheap and compete with all his friends.
Autocross is fun. It's inexpensive. But it's also very imprecise in general. I'm one to take pride in the perfection of my hobbies, and when I'm doing something I love like driving, "good enough" doesn't cut it. That's why I dislike the sporting aspect of autocross, though I do find it fun to toss the car around, be around cars, talk about cars, spin out occasionally, etc.
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Just came across this...
For you honda guys out there
For you honda guys out there
Keef
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Awesome. Looks like the old-school racers Nakajima and Senna are driving in this video...
Watch at 1:20 how much smoother Senna goes around that corner and cuts down the inside of Nakajima. That's not hardware, that's just good driving.
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You might want to consider your own ignorance.
McLaren
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What a load this post is. If your original assumption gets proved wrong, then you just assume everyone is a terrible driver & play the, "I'm well versed in the world of motorsport" card again.speed junkie
So, since everyone else obviously doesn't have the skills, let's see you do beat the top cars. You obviously think you know better, so you must be able to back that claim up.
WeinerSchnitzel
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nobuffalo
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This whole line of pedantic argument ends now. For both sides.
Here I thought this was an "Imports" thread, not a "I know more about cars than you because I don't play with orange snow-cones on the weekend" one.
Eric.
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But on the other hand, autocross requires quick learning. You don't go out to the same local track like you do every other weekend and get to practice the same turns. If you want to be the fastest guy out there, you have to be able to adapt quickly. With experience, you'll be doing less experimenting to find the best line and using your past knowledge of courses with similar turns, etc. It's a little extreme, but I've heard it being compared to how rally works.
And negotiating 20 some odd turns in around a minute seems like it would kind of require more precision than handling like ten turns over a 2.5 mile road course. Different, yes, but way more opportunity for mistakes.
Carlos
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Keef
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Exactly why precision isn't as demanding. Heck, it takes 3 laps just to hone your accuracy and be somewhere near the target. Perfecting the target takes a whole lot longer. Because circuit racing happens at much higher speeds and has fewer turns, precision is extremely important if you want good results. Take a look at lap time differentials for F1 drivers or NASCAR drivers for the most extreme examples.
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McLaren
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Then post them because I'm not digging through 900+ pages to look for someone's name & car I don't even know. Since you're obviously this good, I'm amazed even Eric hasn't referenced your awesome ability to beat Si's.
Actually, don't. If you can dismiss others' results, I'm sure we can just dismiss yours as well.
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WeinerSchnitzel
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I don't know if you guys are part of the Tumblr lot, but this has been kind of circulating around today
www.stancedubgirl.tumblr.com is her Tumblr.
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And they say Toyota put no soul into their work. GTFO.
Automotive perfection. One of the most beautiful engines I have ever heard singing.
Eric.
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Good lord.
Got any others of this?
Edit: RE: LFA - That says ///MFEST, does it not? In German colors? Why is the Lexus parading around like a BMW?
I once beat Evos, WRXs, STIs, Miatas, and S2000s in a bone stock 87 MR2 with the most generic all seasons known to man. Is that relevant to Nationals, where people know how to drive? Nope.
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Keef
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I love the A-Spec N1-style muffler. It's kinda sorta a Spoon knockoff, except that it's just a muffler without the axle-back tubing for specific Hondas. I don't know why more people don't use this style of tip. It looks SO much better than all these big giant fart can mufflers. The only tips that I really like are the RE Amemiya/TODA turndown, the Spoon N1, BC Spec 2, and Isis dual-tip. Definitely the four best looking exhaust tips on the market.
