Inside Sim Racing video. GT5P vs Forza 2 Now with new 2nd video!!!!

[WolfRacer543]

I think a lot of your are taking this a bit too serious. They stated time and time again that it was a prologue and the full GT5 or more updates would change things, and if it had of been a complete game things would have been different. They can only compare what has come out thus far, not what may come out in the future.

Fact is both the PS3 and xbox 360 have been out for ages, Forza 2 has been out for ages and even GT5P has been out for, what, a year?

The PS3 has had 2 years since Forza 2 came out to produce a simulator to compete with it, and all we have is GT5P, so that's all that can be compared.

By the time GT5 comes out it'll probably be GT5 vs Forza 3... so for this "generation", all you have is GT5P vs Forza 2 (or GT4 vs Forza 1 and Forza 2, would you rather they'd reviewed that?).

My big surprises were they didn't penalise forza very much for lack of in car camera. They mentioned it, but for a sim racing game, an in car camera is a must and should have a huge penalty for not having one. Its the only camera angle I use.

Personally I think damage is also a must, even if its not visual damage, you need some sort of penalty for hitting things (not a time penalty, but a driving penalty).

I also thought their "sound" review was pretty bad... in a sim game who reviews the bloody music?

 

[ultimitsu]

I already said it was a fair and accurate review, what did I say I was hoping for exactly?

hoping "For $40 it's well worth it's price. "

 

[thugbear2005]

That's not hope, that's a statement and I stand by it. For $40 it IS well worth the price.

 

[Tenacious D]

By the time GT5 comes out it'll probably be GT5 vs Forza 3... so for this "generation", all you have is GT5P vs Forza 2 (or GT4 vs Forza 1 and Forza 2, would you rather they'd reviewed that?).

Frankly, I'd be fine with that, although comparing Forza 1 and GT4 and Forza 2 and Prologue.

I played Forza 1 again a year ago when my bro bought an XBox and wanted a racer. I forgot what a truly awful racing experience Forza 1 is, unless you're a controller nut. No force feedback, kind of odd hybrid Need For Speed physics - a bunch of Turn 10 came from Electronic Arts - bad 30fps graphics with environment reflections which flickered along badly, the actual environment reflections, odd 3D along with lame camera angles... I could go on and on. I'll never touch it again. Meanwhile, GT4 is still awesome, and its physics are still good enough. The graphics are surprisingly nice, and the wealth of cars and tracks still dumps on any other racer around.

While Forza 2 is nice enough with improved physics, a big point of the thing is being able to race mod and paint up your cars, and that aspect is kind of busted with no fix in sight. The garage was filled to capacity with some 350 cars two years ago - on a freaking HARD DRIVE - and scrolling through it will crash my 360 "Elite." Meanwhile, I have well over 400 cars in GT4 and can still buy more. Plus it has the same yucky driver views, the same bad rendition of the Nurburgring, worse replays, worse music by FAR, and you'd better find a good clan or be faced with a crash fest or servers full of drifters.

I haven't raced in it for well over a year, but I still play GT4 and Prologue.

 

[otago]

I played Forza 1 again a year ago when my bro bought an XBox and wanted a racer. I forgot what a truly awful racing experience Forza 1

Sorry, there is no comparison between Forza 1 and GT4. Graphics in GT4 was worse, AI was extremely dumb, physics was almost nonexistent and organization of racing events sucked. The only one good thing which can be said about GT4 in comparison to Forza 1: licenses, they were good.

GT5 Prologue is a good stand against Forza 2, but GT4 was just a lame racing game. I'm a huge fan of racing games but I just quitted playing GT4 at 10%

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, that's you, otago. I know you think several million people are unthinking trogs and you're the one that's right, but... well, you do like to think certain ways.

 

[otago]

Well, that's you, otago. I know you think several million people are unthinking trogs and you're the one that's right, but... well, you do like to think certain ways.

If you like GT4, you must hate GT5 Prologue, cause physics was almost completely redone and driving is very different.

I really tried hard and on purpose to get just a sign of spin on 400+ HP wild muscle car in GT4, and in GT5 Prologue even NSX getting wild, just push throttle harder.

So for me it's not clear how huge GT4 fans are at the same time huge GT5 fans, cause games feels quite different. Even AI in Prologue doesn't run into you at full speed anymore and brakes to avoid collision.

 

[Lion-Face]

If you like GT4, you must hate GT5 Prologue, cause physics was almost completely redone and driving is very different.

I really tried hard and on purpose to get just a sign of spin on 400+ HP wild muscle car in GT4, and in GT5 Prologue even NSX getting wild, just push throttle harder.

So for me it's not clear how huge GT4 fans are at the same time huge GT5 fans, cause games feels quite different. Even AI in Prologue doesn't run into you at full speed anymore and brakes to avoid collision.

GT4 handles different to GT3 which in turn handled different to GT2, so i cant like all of the previous games? Thats not a very well thought-out statement. I liked GT4 at the time because i felt it was by far the best console driving simulation at that time. GT5P certainly feels alot different, but also alot better. I still play GT4 from time to time because its a very competent game.

As for the topic at hand...

Only just watched the comparison today, i disagree with a few of their points, such as Physics, Car models etc. I felt their review was skewed to favour features over substance. I feel whats there with GT5P outdoes Forza2 most of the time as there appears to be alot more effort put into the fewer features of GT5P, like the physics. The fun factor of GT5P is the physics, GT series, to me, is the only series where i can go Car Vs Track and play for hours on end before even putting any competition into it be it AI or other racers, but of course thats a personal thing.

Contradicting themselves saying no damage in GT5P = 0, but a racing sim that can't use a clutch/Hshifter pattern can still outscore a game which has those features in that category?

There were alot of fair points made for and against either game, but there were just a few points they made me just stare blankly at the screen in disbelief. Although in saying that, i dont know their scoring system and so my views may be taken out of context to how they structure and award points for the scoring of racing sims.

Just gunna leave it at 'meh'

Bring on GT5

 

[Tenacious D]

GT4 handles different to GT3 which in turn handled different to GT2, so i cant like all of the previous games? Thats not a very well thought-out statement. I liked GT4 at the time because i felt it was by far the best console driving simulation at that time. GT5P certainly feels alot different, but also alot better. I still play GT4 from time to time because its a very competent game.

That's an excellent response. I've pointed out that the various Gran Turismos have been different, all edging closer to reality each time, as have others. And yet for many of them, GT2 is their favorite, or GT3, even though GT4 is more advanced. Live For Speed is evidently the pinnacle of driving physics, and yet many count GTR, rFactor or iRacing as their favorite PC racer. And some prefer Forza, even though the cars all have a tendency to oversteer and at the silliest times and the tires have super grip, not to mention the Nurburgring Nordshleife is probably the worst rendition of the track in gaming. Some game will deliver a certain aspect which will be golden to them, and give them a good reason to ignore the flaws, which will leave another person scratching their heads, and I think that needs to be kept in mind.

It will be very interesting to see what the Sim Racing guys think of GT5 when they finally get their hands on it. Maybe they'll call it "Gran Turismo 5 Super Exploded All Out Of Reason Version" or something. I really don't get how they don't understand that Prologue isn't the full Gran Turismo. We've only had the concept of mini-games for a couple of decades or more.

And by the way, I still race in GT4, and love it, and find it to be still a very good racer, since I don't use spinning out as one of my racing techniques.

 

[JosVerstappen]

this review was made to see which console (xbox vs ps3) has the best sim driver, and the xbox clearly wins it.

 

[McLaren]

This review was also comparing what is essentially an uncompleted Gran Turismo 5 against a fully released game....

 

[XTR-KingTuna]

calling forza 2 "better" than GT5P (an unfinished release...) reminds me of the time at Road Atlanta when some redneck informed me his car was "faster" than mine.....my car had no engine or wheels at the time

 

[otago]

GT4 handles different to GT3 which in turn handled different to GT2, so i cant like all of the previous games?

Yeah, but physics in GTP is closer to first Forza, than GT4 (thank god). So if GT5 is better than GT4, so does Forza 1

 

[otago]

this review was made to see which console (xbox vs ps3) has the best sim driver, and the xbox clearly wins it.

I say GT5 Prologue promises not less than Forza, you can't consider Prologue as a complete game.

About console sims: I played recently Race Pro and if all PC sims like this, PC is in serious trouble. It's like PGR4 meets Forza

 

[newbielives]

When I use the MS wheel to drive Forza2 with all aids off and ABS off, it still feels like I'm driving a game, be it a very hard game, I never feel like I'm driving naturally with only my subconscious.

When I drive GT5P with all aids off and ABS set to 0 on my G25 wheel using H Shifter and Clutch, I can just feel the car and drive naturally like I do in my day-to-day car where there is a point when you feel like you're in the zone and you can push that car just a little harder subconsciously.

Summary
GT5P feels like your driving a real car
Forza2 feels like your driving a game

 

[otago]

calling forza 2 "better" than GT5P (an unfinished release...)

They are different games. GTP is driving game, Forza is racing game.

Until you push car to the limits in GTP everything is fine, but not further. Then you start to mention that engine braking is almost absent in game, at 120 MPH without any throttle your speed drops like 1 mph/second, which is obviously wrong. Racing lines and braking points don't matter too much, more like plain speed is the most important parameter.

So when I really push the car in GTP it feels kind of weird for me.

 

[Tenacious D]

^ That's because you consider Forza to equal real life, more than likely.

Forza has pretty bad driver views, basically the same views racing games had in the 90s, minus any cockpit view. Ferrari Challenge is similar, but makes them even worse, and I don't care for its cockpit view at all.

Prologue at least offers two views which do a pretty good job of connecting you to a car in a traditional way: a reasonably good cockpit view (albeit too letterboxed for me still), and a roof cam (though it's too low for me). Despite their flaws, with the very good physics, they do a good job of making you feel like you're controlling a vehicle rather than a game.

I know a lot of people are attached to bumper or chase cam, but after experiencing roofcam, and for others, cockpit cam, there's really no comparison. On occasion, with a nice high car like a Lancer Evo or WRX, high bumper cam is helpful in getting a feel for taking turns in Forza 2 for me, but that's a bad limitation. With everything else, I always feel a bit lost coming up to a turn. If that boat racing game from Turn 10 is worth most of what they say it is, and they keep their word this time, maybe they'll offer decent driver views. But you're still going to have physics with an Electronic Arts flavor. And since I have a handful of good racers here already, and with GT5 coming, FM3 had better be a solid racer and bug free this time.

 

[McLaren]

I say GT5 Prologue promises not less than Forza, you can't consider Prologue as a complete game.

About console sims: I played recently Race Pro and if all PC sims like this, PC is in serious trouble. It's like PGR4 meets Forza

RacePro on the console is nothing like the other titles from 10tacle. I'm not surprised if it's slightly dumbed down for the console crowd.

 

[otago]

RacePro on the console is nothing like the other titles from 10tacle. I'm not surprised if it's slightly dumbed down for the console crowd.

What is 10tacle? And why dumb game, if it will drop sales a lot?

 

[otago]

Prologue at least offers two views which do a pretty good job of connecting you to a car in a traditional way: a reasonably good cockpit view (albeit too letterboxed for me still), and a roof cam (though it's too low for me).

Do you usually drive your car seating on roof?

I understand cockpit view, it's not realistic but does a good job connecting you into racing game, but roof view? That's LOL

I usually drive with hood view in any game and I really missing it in GTP

 

[McLaren]

What is 10tacle? And why dumb game, if it will drop sales a lot?

10tacle was the publisher of SimBin (creator of RacePro) who created many of the popular RACE games.

And by dumbed down, I mean the realism of the physics is toned down. No offense, but the console crowd hasn't exactly take die-hard sims to the heart.

 

[otago]

No offense, but the console crowd hasn't exactly take die-hard sims to the heart.

So that's why Forza and GT series are the most successful racing games on consoles. Good to know.

I guess dumbed out in comparison with this two games Race Pro has sold more?

 

[otago]

10tacle was the publisher of SimBin (creator of RacePro) who created many of the popular RACE games.

I thought Atari publishes SimBin games for a long time

 

[Kryz11]

So that's why Forza and GT series are the most successful racing games on consoles. Good to know.

Reventon is right, just because everyone buys console racing game does not mean its more hardcore and realistic. Good example, call of duty vs ARMA, we all know COD games have sold more copies.. but is it a sim? no its just another casual shooter.. Arma did decent or OK with sales but that is a true hardcore army sim and most people that play ARMA are hardcore sim diehards.

GT is most succesful racing game.. but if you look at the crowd, most are casual buyers to enjoy a racing game, and only few diehard GT fans that love every aspect and will even play Prologue till GT5 comes along.

Another aspect is that its cheaper to buy 400 dollar console and 120 dollar wheel to enjoy GT or Forza then a good PC.

 

[Lion-Face]

Do you usually drive your car seating on roof?

I understand cockpit view, it's not realistic but does a good job connecting you into racing game, but roof view? That's LOL

I usually drive with hood view in any game and I really missing it in GTP

Why is cockpit view not realistic? Because of the drivers hands on the wheel? Its probably one of the more realistic positions as it puts you in the proper position in the car at approx the drivers eye level. The limiting factor is the tv screen, as we have a very narrow field of vision when looking through a tv screen basically negating the human eyes' natural peripheral vision. Hence why there are many different views in a game to choose from that best suits your needs.

Theres nothing more wrong with roof view than your choice of bonnet. The roof view puts you where the driver would be position in the car, behind the front wheels giving you more sense of natural control over the car, while also giving a wider field of view that is more accustomed to driving in real life.

You can pick holes in your favourite view too, the bonnet view gives you the approximate correct eye level of sitting in the car, yet its practically on the front axle. Your driving from the front of the car, not from inside the car, your leading the car through a corner rather than training it through. You don't sit on the bonnet and drive your car do you? How is that any more realistic than using a roof view?

But thats the beauty games, its entirely up to you how you want to view whats going on, each view has its pros and cons and its up to you how you want to view the world. There is no real right or wrong here.

 

[Kryz11]

Yeah GT5P has one of the best cockpit views from any game I've play. I can still see the road nicely without messing time up because I did not see the turn or driving on grass, they did nice job with that.

About the Roof cam, its ok, not my favorite thing, but nice option from time to time especially when I try to learn a new track.. But, they need HOOD cam so it would be between bumper and roof, yeah its called cockpit cam, but they need cam right after front windshield.

 

[otago]

Why is cockpit view not realistic?

When you drive real car you can see hood and road or wheel and dashboard or any mirror. There is no way you can see any two from this three at the same time.

But I like cockpit view in Prologue cause it makes game feels more real. With hood view you have better car control

 

[McLaren]

So that's why Forza and GT series are the most successful racing games on consoles. Good to know.

I guess dumbed out in comparison with this two games Race Pro has sold more?

Forza & GT are not diehard racing sims. Not even close. F355 Challenge is more realistic in physics than GT or Forza has ever been.

I thought Atari publishes SimBin games for a long time

Because Atari absorbed what was left of 10tacle.

 

[otago]

Forza & GT are not diehard racing sims. Not even close. F355 Challenge is more realistic in physics than GT or Forza has ever been.

Very doubtful statement

 

[ultimitsu]

This review was also comparing what is essentially an uncompleted Gran Turismo 5 against a fully released game....

calling forza 2 "better" than GT5P (an unfinished release...) reminds me of the time at Road Atlanta when some redneck informed me his car was "faster" than mine.....my car had no engine or wheels at the time

I say GT5 Prologue promises not less than Forza, you can't consider Prologue as a complete game.

I just want to remind you all that GT5P IS a complete game. it is a complete game that is 35% cheaper than its x360 rival, doing so by offering less content.

GT5 is a different game, it is a game that gets released one and half years after GT5P and cost a whole lot more. (now by the sound of the bird and skypath rumour, it may be more expensive than other full priced games)

you can only call GT5P unfinished or beta or incomplete or demo if:

A, it was free - which it is not
B, as a GT5P owner you only have to pay for the price difference to get GT5 when it comes out - which you cant