Is camber fixed? Discuss it here.

Here is my 2 cents.
Unless I'm reading something different than what's posted.
Zero camber seems to provide the most grip.
Anything above 1.0 doesn't.
We cannot adjust castor or actully see what those values are unless you hack your PS3. So throw that out with the baby.
So camber works from 0 to 1.0 and doesn't after that.
Take what you want from that, but IMHO it's broke as any value after 1.0 is errelevant.
Please don't quote real world numbers,this is a video game.
Tire's, driving style and wheel or controller use will be different for every person. No 2 people drive the same.See the car in my profile. Different size tires front and rear, 265/60 15's on back,195/65 15's on front,way different camber than stock,do to standard steering and standard brakes and bigger tires. It don't stop in a straight line. Period.Unfortunately I live in Canada and that car doesn't see snow. It is stored now. I'm not driving 100 miles to test or look at what values are on car.I will talk to my mechanic tomorrow and ask him what the camber changes were. The front end was raised 2 inches, different shocks etc. I will look up what the stock values were, based on 14" tires that were equipped from the factory.
The car handles way better with 15" tires and higher suspension. Does any car handle better in GT6 with bigger tires?
 
Last edited:
The only thing that I'm convinced of, after 13 pages of responses, is that people who feel like camber provides a benefit still believe that and people who feel camber only hurts a setup still believe that. Is there a single person following this thread that has changed opinions on the subject since reading this thread? Please, let me know if you have changed your opinion. I would be very interested in hearing what it was that changed your opinion. :)
You're right about the first part and the reason is because camber does not provide a clearly definable and statistically meaningful benefit. If it did, we'd have universal agreement. But because the benefits are infinitesimal in some tests, and zero or negative in others, there is no clear benefit to camber IMO, outside of how the car feels. In real life, properly set camber provides measureable benefits to lap times, tire wear, tire temperatures and more and I haven't seen any of that demonstrated as of yet with any of the testing so far. A tenth or two here or there in one test, to me is inconclusive either way.
 
I've ran into a little problem with getting the data you were looking for @Ridox2JZGTE. Apparently the laptop I use is not 100% compatible with the MOTEC software. It requires screen size of 1024 x 768 and all I have is 1024 x 600, which means I'm missing the bottom 20% of the page. This means I can't set any changes in the channel report, as I'm guessing the apply changes button is at the foot of the page.:banghead:

It looks as though I should be able to get the Lap-times/eclectic time data ok, but won't be able to get the average speed or average G load figures :(. All I can do for these is get the peak G from the Graph and the corresponding Corrected speed at that point. Sorry, just let me know if this is ok for you and I'll get the tests finished up and get the data.

FYI I've done the 2.2/1.2, 2.0/1.0 and 1.8/0.8 runs so far and have improved lap-times with each change. I even went back and did 2.2/1.2 again after the first 3 sets just to make sure, but it was still slower that 2.0/1.0 by about 0.150 seconds.
 
I've ran into a little problem with getting the data you were looking for @Ridox2JZGTE. Apparently the laptop I use is not 100% compatible with the MOTEC software. It requires screen size of 1024 x 768 and all I have is 1024 x 600, which means I'm missing the bottom 20% of the page. This means I can't set any changes in the channel report, as I'm guessing the apply changes button is at the foot of the page.:banghead:

It looks as though I should be able to get the Lap-times/eclectic time data ok, but won't be able to get the average speed or average G load figures :(. All I can do for these is get the peak G from the Graph and the corresponding Corrected speed at that point. Sorry, just let me know if this is ok for you and I'll get the tests finished up and get the data.

FYI I've done the 2.2/1.2, 2.0/1.0 and 1.8/0.8 runs so far and have improved lap-times with each change. I even went back and did 2.2/1.2 again after the first 3 sets just to make sure, but it was still slower that 2.0/1.0 by about 0.150 seconds.

I'm fine with that 👍

Has anyone ever setup the alignment of their real car for optimum performance when cornering, eg track day or auto X or simply wanted the best handling balance for your needs ?

Camber can help fine tune the balance of a car handling. Here is a good example :

Miata Wheel Alignment
Lucas, Prince of Darkness

PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE PAGE before taking the specs to your alignment shop. Even better, print this page and ask the technician to discuss it with you before he starts.

A precision 4-wheel alignment is the most important suspension upgrade you can make to a Miata. Without one, you wil not get the performance your Miata can deliver. The factory "alignment" specs have entirely too much ± tolerance, and while every alignment is a compromise, the Mazda specs are biased heavily toward low tire wear on cars that are never driven hard. The large tolerance also makes the dealer's prep job less expensive.

The difference can be astonishing. Don't you want your car to behave the same way turning right as it does turning left? If performance doesn't impress you, how about safety? Fortunately, aligning a Miata properly is not difficult for a skilled technician, and is relatively cheap for the benefits gained.

Miq's alignment specs
I started with a Miq alignment, but I soon realized it wasn't aggressive enough for my driving style. I varied one parameter at a time until I got the balance I wanted. I don't like toe out, and I think street tires need more negative camber to work properly at comfortable, everyday pressures.

An alternative view
Here are my 1994 Miata's current alignment specs:



Rear
Toe: 1/32 inch (0°4.5' or 0.075°) IN per side
Camber: -1.75 degrees

Front
Camber: -1.2 degrees
Caster: 5.0 degrees
Toe: 1/32 inch IN per side
The parameters are listed in the order they should be set, starting with rear toe, which may constrain the other settings but is the single most important parameter for safe, predictable handling.

To get accurate results, the car must be aligned with the driver's seat ballasted with your weight (and your customary passenger's weight in the other seat, too, if that's how you normally drive for sport). Sitting in the car is one way to ballast, if the shop allows it. If you don't ballast, you won't get a precision alignment, since some values may change up to half a degree or 1/4 inch, depending on your weight.

These specs work for me, with my modest suspension mods, and have proven to be a good starting point for many Miata owners. However, every car is a little different, as are the needs of their drivers, so don't be afraid to experiment.

A history of my alignments
The first settings that worked well for me used camber of -1.0° front, -1.5° rear. The result was very lively, tending toward oversteer in fast sweepers and requiring a fair amount of attention to maintain a straight line on the highway - not darty, but sensitive to the smallest input. It was fun, but kept me busy.

Next time, I set the camber to -1.0° front, -1.75° rear. The car was calmer and a little less lively, exhibited less trailing-throttle oversteer, and didn't quite want to stay rotated under full throttle. In short, it understeered slightly. Some drivers will prefer such a 0.75° rear camber bias, which is easier to drive and requires less attention, but isn't as tossable.

I decided I didn't like any understeer at all, so I increased the front camber to -1.2°. The extra camber improved grip, and the balance is now quite neutral. Tire wear remains even across the tread, and the rears no longer wear twice as fast as the fronts. The car responds well to very-aggressive driving, yet remains forgiving, assuming I don't lift abruptly in a hard corner. A neutral Miata will oversteer on a trailing throttle!

Match the alignment to your needs
My personal alignment goals:

  • neutral balance under constant power at speed, able to transition to oversteer with slight throttle lift to transfer weight forward
  • a good match with my power steering, OEM springs, Koni shocks set full soft and top perch, FM swaybars set to soft front/medium rear, and 3-season performance tires (currently 195/50-15 Toyo T1R on 15x6.5 Slipstreams at 29 psi)
  • enough negative camber to wear the tires evenly across the tread under my aggressive driving style
  • good highway tracking without tramlining or dartiness
  • good steering feedback
  • street use, not autocross
These goals were met, although the car still tends to follow road camber by drifting very gently toward the shoulder if there's much crown. Your goals may differ, but keep these points in mind:

  • Adding weight (passenger, luggage, whatever) makes the camber more negative, but not necessarily the way you might expect. Ballast for your intended usage, and exercise a little restraint under other conditions.
  • If you drive hard in corners, more negative camber will actually help your tires last longer - regardless of what the dealer or the guy at Sears tells you - up to a point, say, -2.0 degrees for street use. If you don't ever drive hard, or if your tires start wearing on the inner shoulders, use less camber all around. Don't be afraid to experiment, once you understand these principles.
  • Left and right sides must match. If a spec is unattainable on both sides, do the best you can then match the worse side.
  • Maintain at least 0.5 degree front/rear camber bias. Larger bias = more understeer.
  • 5 degrees of caster is enough for an NA; NBs can use up to 6. If you have manual steering, you may prefer less caster for easier low-speed turning.
  • Sacrifice rear camber to get the correct rear toe.
  • Sacrifice caster to get the correct front camber, maintaining the 0.5-0.75 degree F/R bias.
  • You can set front toe in your driveway without upsetting any of the other parameters, if you wish to play with front toe out for lightning-quick turn-in for autocross. If it makes the car dart all over the highway, well...don't say I didn't warn you.
  • Start with both swaybars set full soft, if you can (assuming yours are aftermarket bars). Use alignment to get the basic handling balance you want. If it's close but not quite there, then use swaybar adjustments to stiffen the end that "grips too much." (I started with my rear bar in the middle hole to preserve the endlink geometry.)
Where can you get a precision alignment?
Ideally, look for a shop that maintains road racing cars. A computerized rack is not necessary, but a skilled, creative mechanic is. He should start by asking your personal goals and your weight (or offer to let you sit in the car on the rack). If you get an argument instead, keep shopping. A good shop may charge you up to $150, or even more in difficult cases. This is reasonable for the rewards you'll get. Some Miatas are harder and take longer to align than others, and an honest shop is entitled to charge more for spending the extra time. You won't be sorry.

An alert technician may notice that the suspension bolts have become stretched after several alignment procedures, and want to sell you new ones. He's not ripping you off: they do stretch, new bolt/nut sets are cheap, and will help ensure that the alignment won't slip the next time you hit a pothole. The latest bolts last a lot longer, too.

What about my NB? What if my Miata is lowered and has 17-inch wheels? Why do my wheels look like / \?
According to reports from owners of 1999-and-later Miatas, these specs work just as well on the NB. A lowered Miata may have constraints on the minimum attainable camber, since lowering itself induces negative camber, but the above specs are still a good target; do the best you can. Wheel size has no effect. These specs will work on any NA or NB Miata. / \ is how they're supposed to look.

Read until to the very end ( about bigger wheels and lowered Miata )
 
Last edited:
You're right about the first part and the reason is because camber does not provide a clearly definable and statistically meaningful benefit. If it did, we'd have universal agreement. But because the benefits are infinitesimal in some tests, and zero or negative in others, there is no clear benefit to camber IMO, outside of how the car feels. In real life, properly set camber provides measureable benefits to lap times, tire wear, tire temperatures and more and I haven't seen any of that demonstrated as of yet with any of the testing so far. A tenth or two here or there in one test, to me is inconclusive either way.

A value of >0 camber and <1 is faster according to the data..

its a clear benefit.
 
Last edited:
I'm fine with that 👍

Has anyone ever setup the alignment of their real car for optimum performance when cornering, eg track day or auto X or simply wanted the best handling balance for your needs ?

Camber can help fine tune the balance of a car handling. Here is a good example :



Read until to the very end ( about bigger wheels and lowered Miata )
Yes camber in real life does help.
We cannot see nor adjust the values of castor. I believe I've said this in the very first round of this debate last year. I fully understand what real life settings are. They do not translate, to this game. No one knows what K&W gave to PD, for suspension settings.
If someone has hacked the PS3 and figured out the coding ,then please elaborate. Otherwise were going for another ride on the merrygoround.
 
A value of >0 camber and <1 is faster according to the data..

its a clear benefit.
If you cherry pick the data that suits your case then yes. If you take all of the data provided so far, then no, there is no benefit to camber in terms of laptimes, only in feel, which is subjective of course, not everyone likes it.
 
Yes camber in real life does help.
We cannot see nor adjust the values of castor. I believe I've said this in the very first round of this debate last year. I fully understand what real life settings are. They do not translate, to this game. No one knows what K&W gave to PD, for suspension settings.
If someone has hacked the PS3 and figured out the coding ,then please elaborate. Otherwise were going for another ride on the merrygoround.

You best bet to go to NGU to get someone with CFW PS3 to discuss in detail, @FarSideX there have shown the suspension and tire model data that I posted. The only way to find how things work, is to do in depth tuning/experiment by changing the values directly which I can't do as I don't have CFW PS3. Cooperating with those who have access to in game data will make things a lot easier if wanted very in depth research - play with caster, suspension data etc.

These codes values :
UseCar
rideheightMINF
rideheightMAXF
rideheightDFF
rideheightMINR
rideheightMAXR
rideheightDFR
targetFrequencyFMin
targetFrequencyFMax
targetFrequencyFDF
targetFrequencyRMin
targetFrequencyRMax
targetFrequencyRDF
category
camberMINF
camberMAXF
camberDFF
camberMINR
camberMAXR
camberDFR
strokecamberF
strokecamberR
cmbgripFx1
cmbgripFx2
cmbgripFx3
cmbgripFx4
cmbgripFy1
cmbgripFy2
cmbgripFy3
cmbgripFy4
cmbgripRx1
cmbgripRx2
cmbgripRx3
cmbgripRx4
cmbgripRy1
cmbgripRy2
cmbgripRy3
cmbgripRy4
toeMINF
toeMAXF
toeDFF
toeMINR
toeMAXR
toeDFR
brmarginF
brmarginR
brtouchF
brtouchR
limrF
limrR
springratevol
springrateMINF
springrateMAXF
springrateDFF
springrateMINR
springrateMAXR
springrateDFR
leverratioDFF
leverratioDFR
bumprubberF
bumprubberR
bumprubberDMF
bumprubberDMR
dampV1BF
dampV1BR
dampV2BF
dampV2BR
dampV1RF
dampV1RR
dampV2RF
dampV2RR
damplevelBF
dampF1BMINF
dampF1BMAXF
dampF1BDFF
dampF2BMINF
dampF2BMAXF
dampF2BDFF
damplevelRF
dampF1RMINF
dampF1RMAXF
dampF1RDFF
dampF2RMINF
dampF2RMAXF
dampF2RDFF
damplevelBR
dampF1BMINR
dampF1BMAXR
dampF1BDFR
dampF2BMINR
dampF2BMAXR
dampF2BDFR
damplevelRR
dampF1RMINR
dampF1RMAXR
dampF1RDFR
dampF2RMINR
dampF2RMAXR
dampF2RDFR
unsprungmassF
unsprungmassR
stabilizerFlevel
stabilizerMINF
stabilizerMAXF
stabilizerDFF
stabilizerRlevel
stabilizerMINR
stabilizerMAXR
stabilizerDFR
ActiveSuspensionType
springratelevelF
springratelevelR
rideheightlevelF
rideheightlevelR
AutoDampingForce
DampingRatioFBLevel
DampingRatioFBDF
DampingRatioFBMin
DampingRatioFBMax
DampingRatioFRLevel
DampingRatioFRDF
DampingRatioFRMin
DampingRatioFRMax
DampingRatioRBLevel
DampingRatioRBDF
DampingRatioRBMin
DampingRatioRBMax
DampingRatioRRLevel
DampingRatioRRDF
DampingRatioRRMin
DampingRatioRRMax
Caster
targetFrequencyFLv
targetFrequencyRLv


What I do know is all cars in GT6 shared similar suspension model, even cars that supposed to have live rear axle have dynamic camber - easily seen when on a jump - full droop, which means all cars have independent suspension. Playing with dynamic camber, stroke camber, caster, lever ratio and bump rubber values may help shed some light on how camber is simulated. The cmbgrip values might be important and may change dynamically while being run. Not sure talking about this is against AUP or not @Gravitron.

I posted that link just to show what camber can do IRL - changing balance and for tire wear, not in game. I don't use camber for purposes like most tuners here, I built replicas, regardless if camber works or not I will use real life range of camber values. And so far, I have no replica that do not perform like it should ( when driven against RL lap time reference ), with camber, they are still quicker even at closest tire grip level and driven with similar pace - good enough for me, although ride height can be a bitch :lol:
My most recent work is BMW Z4 GT3, in which I have detailed data from BMW Motorsport Catalogue. I retained stock camber 1.5 / 3.5, used actual rate offered by BMW Motorsport and for me it's doing fine with an optimized aero, damper, ARB and toe to work with high camber- already quicker then the best lap record IRL with matched BOP spec. My goal is different :D so I don't take side with either camp of camber work and camber broken. I gave my HKS CZ200S Evo X replica as test bed as it was built around camber, a lot easier to analyze and test I suppose.

If camber works, I welcomed it even if it has limited range of use, if not, I persevere :lol:
 
I understand what your saying.
For the average player/tuner,this is mind boggling stuff. If PD would get off their arse and say it works or it doesn't this would put an end to all of this. Pretty simple.
 
If you cherry pick the data that suits your case then yes. If you take all of the data provided so far, then no, there is no benefit to camber in terms of laptimes, only in feel, which is subjective of course, not everyone likes it.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I did find a difference in lap times with my test. I'm not sure why it was so ignored? Maybe in this thread I need to be meaner?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/is-camber-fixed-discuss-it-here.321270/page-11#post-10354677
 
I understand what your saying.
For the average player/tuner,this is mind boggling stuff. If PD would get off their arse and say it works or it doesn't this would put an end to all of this. Pretty simple.

I suspect PD uses simplified model on all cars ( calculation based on preset values applied on all cars with some variation ) Suspension parameter like target frequency, damper range, max min values of toe/camber/spring/damping/stabilizer, and dynamic camber might have preset range or set at specific value for each car. And they don't work as accurate as they should due to the values used. Maybe most cars have overly high or low range of values in one or more of the suspension parameters that cause camber to be hot topic :lol:
 
Not trying to be argumentative, but I did find a difference in lap times with my test. I'm not sure why it was so ignored? Maybe in this thread I need to be meaner?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/is-camber-fixed-discuss-it-here.321270/page-11#post-10354677
At least 8 people read it and "liked" it. I added a link to the OP right away. You yourself said the test was inconclusive by saying camber worked and it didn't work. From what I read in the data, camber worked significantly better only in two sectors, and the rest of the sectors were pretty much identical. An anomaly like that could easily come from just nailing a couple of sectors really well. It really needs more testing to see if anyone else can repeat the results, but seeing as this is an all volunteer army I have no control over that. I appreciate the input as I'm sure everyone does. 👍 Try campaigning to get someone else to repeat the test, but it is a significant time commitment.

I don't advise the meaner route.
 
Last edited:
At least 8 people read it and "liked" it. I added a link to the OP right away. You yourself said the test was inconclusive by saying camber worked and it didn't work. From what I read in the data, camber worked significantly better only in two sectors, and the rest of the sectors were pretty much identical. An anomaly like that could easily come from just nailing a couple of sectors really well. It really needs more testing to see if anyone else can repeat the results, but seeing as this is an all volunteer army I have no control over that. I appreciate the input as I'm sure everyone does. 👍

I don't advise the meaner route.

Ok. Cool. It wasn't ignored. That took like 5 hours to drive and organize the data.

As for getting one lucky sector, I did run ten laps on each setting and took the best, so all sectors did have a fair chance to score the fastest possible time. I cross checked those laps with the other nine for each sector to help minimize the possibility for an anomaly.

This is the part that I had hoped to gather some opinions upon, to quote myself.

Camber worked and it did not work. This test shows that you can be almost as fast with camber as without. What really needs to be taken away from this test is how and when to use camber. Camber must be thought about separately between front and rear.
- Use front camber on a car that already has oversteer on exit and problems turning in. If your car already understeers on exit, adding front camber will make it slower on corner exit.
- Front camber also makes it easier to lock the front tires under braking so lowering the front brake balance may help or you will need to be easier on the brake pedal.
- Rear camber allowed for more rotation so it can be used on cars with plentiful rear grip.

And thanks for the advise on remaining scientific and leaving the brass knuckles in the tool box.
 
Last night I decided to try to see if I could see/feel the effect on camber on tire wear, so I purchased a new Subaru WRX STI Spec C '09 and applied the same suspension tune that @LeoStrop used in his Monza test at post # 299. I decided that I wanted a heavier car to exaggerate the tire wear, so I elimated the stage 1 weight reduction and eliminated the computer, and added the stage 1 engine tune, added the catalytic converter, added the intake tuning, and added the window weight reduction so my car had the same 500PP value as LeoStrop's. HP was 387, weight ended up at 1440kg.

I took my 2009 WRX to the Willow Springs 20 mile Super race and cycled the lineups until I found one without the rabbits, so my competion was the Lambo Aventador LP 700-4 and the McLaren MP4-12C, and then ran eight races against the same AI lineup and got the following results:

Willow Springs 20 mile Super race
Used: Subaru WRX STI Spec C '09 on SS tires

..............Camber.......Camber.....Camber.......Camber......Camber......Camber......Camber......Camber
------------0.0/0.0-----0.5/0.5-----1.0/1.0------1.5/1.5-----2.0/2.0-----2.5/2.5------3.0/3.0------3.5/3.5

RaceTm--11:52.471--11:52.404--11:52.911--11:52.522--11:58.177--11:58.883--11:58.737--12:01.907

Best lap--1:21.449----1:22.183---1:22.132----1:22.208---1:22.449---1:23.272----1:22.376---1:23.219

Tire wear...LF=3........LF=2..........LF=2...........LF=2.........LF=2..........LF=2...........LF=2........LF=2

My results show that I achieved essentially the same overall race time with the camber settings from 0.0/0.0 to 1.5/1.5, and then an increase in the overall race time for camber settings of 2.0/2.0 to 3.0/3.0 (but these last three camber settings seemed to give me the same overall race time. As for tire wear, I was checking my left front tire (the tire that was being worn down the most) when entering the pits at the end of lap # 5. In all cases except for the race with 0/0 camber, the LF tire bar was showing "2". With the camber setting of 0/0, the LF tire bar was at "3".

Interestingly, my best lap was in every case was lap # 7. I did not notice this until after I had completed all the races, so it wasn't influenced by any intentional driving on my part:eek: So, I have two explanations for this: 1) perhaps the low fuel load helped my lap times, or 2) I was in all cases pushing hard at this point in the race to catch the two front-runners (the Aventador and the McLaren MP4) so perhaps I was driving just a little bit faster during each race to catch the front-runners.

Now I know that the races at Willow Springs get impacted by how the AI behave and where I pass them during each lap/race, but since I ran against the same lineup every time, I felt that their impact was reduced to a manageable amount.

Initial conclusions:
Camber from 0/0 to 1.5/1.5 doesn't affect overall race times very much.
Camber 2.0/2.0 and higher loses you race time
Camber does affect tire wear, but only a small amount

If I have time, I think that I will repeat the entire test with a new Subaru WRX (mine now has 210 miles on it) and see if I get similar or different results.

Respectfully,
GTsail
 
Last edited:
Johnnypenso
If you cherry pick the data that suits your case then yes. If you take all of the data provided so far, then no, there is no benefit to camber in terms of laptimes, only in feel, which is subjective of course, not everyone likes it.

Only if you ignore positive data is there no tangible benefit.

People doing tests like 1/1, 2/2, 3/3 camber setups of course they aren't getting results Because as already stated the benefits are seen over a lower range of camber.

True it might not work 100% to true life but what does work exactly as per real life in GT6?
 
Real comprehensive comment.

After this I have right to expect education from you, I will pass that education forward to my old teachers and educate them too.

Waiting for your lessons what is right and what is wrong. Please include explanations why something works way it works.
You are going to sit here and claim air resistance is the only reason a front high setup doesn't turn in real life like it does in gt6? Then say I'm the one that owes an explanation? Sorry, it is not my job to explain high school physics to you. Camber in gt6 has ZERO correlation to real life.
 
@GTsail290, thanks for your tests! 👍

Don't be surprised that your best lap, was on lap 7, it happens to me too. And i can't tell you the reason why, but fuel consumption have something to do with it. Could you feel any improvements, in some aspects of the car, with camber btw 0.0 and 1.0? I will have a go at Willow later, to see what i can get.

Also, you use wheel or ds3?
 

I can't say that I noticed any difference to the car's handling with any of the camber settings between 0.0 and 1.5

It seems to me that the differences are small enough that I could be imaging them.

One thing that I did notice is that it was possible to drive thru turn 8 (the high-speed right-hand sweeper) at full-speed for the first two laps on fresh tires. But then as the tires aged, I would have to lift off the throttle to make it thru this corner. However, with camber at 3.5/3.5, I think I could only drive thru turn 8 once with the fresh tires at full-speed, so the high camber certainly started to affect the car's speed quite early in the tire life.

I use a DFGT wheel.

Respectfully,
GTsail
 
Not really. I'm not seeing any consistent evidence of it providing improved tyre wear, nor any consistent evidence of it providing improved grip.

Yes really. Most of the "evidence" in this thread is gained by using amounts over the already determined limit. So, any thing from 1.0 and down has shown gains in grip. Small gains can be had by small adjustments. For instance, adjust from 0.2 to 0.3. or vice versa. Now, in real life, you can add some camber (technically, remove camber) and you will see gains in grip. Also, as in real life, in a straight line there is less tire contact patch so you get a little less braking and little less acceleration. This reduced contact patch COULD provide less wear, but if you are spinning the tires on exit or locking them on entry, that wear gain is negated.

Also, as stated, camber is independent front and rear and must be treated as such. Just because 0.1 increments show gains, that doesn't mean that 0.1/0.1 will show double the gains. My FF cars for instance, especially the very front heavy ones, rarely see gains by rear camber settings above 0.2.

So, in that case, having a 0.5 on the rear will most likely cause a reduction in lap time. It might also cause on increase in rear tire wear if they start to slide around.

Everyone wants to see camber work like a light switch (X camber=X grip=X laptime=X tire wear for every car, in all cases) but that's not going to happen, nor should it.

From car to car, track to track, tire temperature, tire wear, and time of day, different settings will show gains or losses...just like reality. There is no magic bullet.

I had more...but these walls of text are just getting out of hand.




UPDATE - CASE IN POINT - 600PP Tsukuba Seasonal.

I used my (FLAT FLOORED) z06 for this challenge. I am currently at 54.524. I NORMALLY run the car with a 0.6/0.5 camber setup. However, in this case, I reduced my rear camber value to 0.4. This allowed me to turn more (by virtue of less resistance to turning from the rear). This has come at the cost of exit stability. On a 0.5 rear camber I can be more aggressive on the throttle. On a 0.4, I get wheel spin unless I am more careful.

So, here is a case where I reduced the camber value (notice that I am approaching 0), I LOST rear grip, but gained agility. So, if 0/0 were ALWAYS the "best", why did I lose grip as I approached 0?

As I said, no magic bullet.
 
Last edited:
Yes really. Most of the "evidence" in this thread is gained by using amounts over the already determined limit. So, any thing from 1.0 and down has shown gains in grip. Small gains can be had by small adjustments. For instance, adjust from 0.2 to 0.3. or vice versa.

You missed the part where I said consistent evidence.

Some people are getting results that suggest what you say. Other people are having trouble replicating the results.

I've tried a few myself. I couldn't get results that were consistent enough to be considered conclusive one way or the other. Sometimes I would get results that could suggest that there was an effect, but then on repetition I couldn't do it again.

Reading the descriptions people have of their testing methods is interesting as well. We've got a lot of very good drivers who are apparently able to hit the absolute limits of a tune within 6 to 10 laps, every time and with astounding consistency between sessions. Maybe it's true, but if I can't replicate those results and other people are having similar problems, then I think it casts doubt on whether it's a true observation or an artifact of the testing.

This is why I say I can't see consistent evidence. There's evidence, but there's evidence for pixies and leprechauns and UFOs. It's important that people do testing and come up with these things, but it's also important not to get too attached to them until you've really tried your hardest to disprove your hypothesis.

That's largely what's missing here. People are getting hypotheses and then hunting for evidence to prove them. That's not how it works.

How it should be is as follows:

Step 1: An effect is observed. This effect should be able to be consistently generated under known circumstances, and should not be confounded by other effects.

Step 2: A mechanism is proposed.

Step 3: Testing is performed to attempt to discredit the mechanism. If they mechanism cannot be discredited, it may be correct.

We're still on Step 1. I haven't seen a test yet that has been able to consistently generate the positive effects of camber. Those that have are inconsistent, and possibly confounded by other effects such as improved lap times from a car that is better balanced.

Everyone wants to see camber work like a light switch (X camber=X grip=X laptime=X tire wear for every car, in all cases) but that's not going to happen, nor should it.

Speak for yourself.

I don't expect camber to work light a light switch, nor do I want it to. It should be variable by car, but it probably isn't ever going to be because of the way GT treats suspension. At the very least it should be a scale with a range of plausible and usable values, preferably with advantages to be seen by tuning for unique tracks.

From car to car, track to track, tire temperature, tire wear, and time of day, different settings will show gains or losses...just like reality. There is no magic bullet.

Nobody claimed there was. Stop shooting straw men.

In reality, the effects of camber are visible. They should also be visible in game.

Unfortunately, we have rather fewer tools in game than in real life. In real life I could go out and drive a dozen hard laps in the car, pull into the pits and by visual inspection and a crappy temperature probe probably have a reasonable idea what was going on.

==========

As an aside, I was tooling around in a BRZ the other night trying a few things, and was struck by just how strong the effect of tyre heat is in GT6.

I'd had the idea of pushing the nose up into a wall and doing burnouts to test wear (dumb idea, don't waste your time), but I couldn't get the wheels to consistently spin. However, once I'd handbraked into a couple of donuts there was no problem and the effect stuck around for some time.

I've seen this effect in testing too, in that I can almost always get my fastest times on tyres that are warm but fresh, two or three laps old depending on track length. Often on long runs tyres seem to get too hot, and times that were easy earlier in the run seem near impossible later on.

It makes me wonder how much of a role tyre heat plays in all this. Does camber affect the way tyres heat up? Because it probably should, and if so the heat itself could play a significant role in any gains or losses. Is camber making the tyres heat up more, and cancelling out it's own benefits? Possibly, some people have reported subjectively feeling a car that's a little more "slidey" with camber added. Sliding adds heat.

I have no idea how these things could be tested, although I'm going to keep thinking about it. But it struck me as a way that camber could be working and yet we still see very limited consistent results, through the confounding effect of other linked factors.
 
Had to do quick comeback, if someone is interested to test a "working" camber tune go and check that RUF on my signature.
This thread is my inspiration for that, had to include all things what are commonly said non working.
Sorry my popping here.. digging in my man cave..
 
Had to do quick comeback, if someone is interested to test a "working" camber tune go and check that RUF on my signature.
This thread is my inspiration for that, had to include all things what are commonly said non working.
Sorry my popping here.. digging in my man cave..
Could it be the fact of it being a RR car perhaps? Just a question,not being a smart arse.
 
You missed the part where I said consistent evidence.

I get improvement from some amount of camber, on all cars, in 100% of cases. That's pretty consistent.

The debatable point is, what is "improvement"? In my test, cars with some degree of camber set a faster lap 100% of the time compared to no camber. It never ever varies. Is the grip improved? Lateral grip is.How much camber? Not much. How much improvement? Sometimes a little, Sometimes a lot.

In the end, it doesn't really matter if you chose to believe it or not. I go faster with it, therefore I advocate it. This has come from my testing for my purposes.

The only definitive answer that will satisfy any doubters is to administer their own testing regime.
 
Yes really. Most of the "evidence" in this thread is gained by using amounts over the already determined limit. So, any thing from 1.0 and down has shown gains in grip. Small gains can be had by small adjustments. For instance, adjust from 0.2 to 0.3. or vice versa. Now, in real life, you can add some camber (technically, remove camber) and you will see gains in grip. Also, as in real life, in a straight line there is less tire contact patch so you get a little less braking and little less acceleration. This reduced contact patch COULD provide less wear, but if you are spinning the tires on exit or locking them on entry, that wear gain is negated.

Also, as stated, camber is independent front and rear and must be treated as such. Just because 0.1 increments show gains, that doesn't mean that 0.1/0.1 will show double the gains. My FF cars for instance, especially the very front heavy ones, rarely see gains by rear camber settings above 0.2.

So, in that case, having a 0.5 on the rear will most likely cause a reduction in lap time. It might also cause on increase in rear tire wear if they start to slide around.

Everyone wants to see camber work like a light switch (X camber=X grip=X laptime=X tire wear for every car, in all cases) but that's not going to happen, nor should it.

From car to car, track to track, tire temperature, tire wear, and time of day, different settings will show gains or losses...just like reality. There is no magic bullet.

I had more...but these walls of text are just getting out of hand.




UPDATE - CASE IN POINT - 600PP Tsukuba Seasonal.

I used my (FLAT FLOORED) z06 for this challenge. I am currently at 54.524. I NORMALLY run the car with a 0.6/0.5 camber setup. However, in this case, I reduced my rear camber value to 0.4. This allowed me to turn more (by virtue of less resistance to turning from the rear). This has come at the cost of exit stability. On a 0.5 rear camber I can be more aggressive on the throttle. On a 0.4, I get wheel spin unless I am more careful.

So, here is a case where I reduced the camber value (notice that I am approaching 0), I LOST rear grip, but gained agility. So, if 0/0 were ALWAYS the "best", why did I lose grip as I approached 0?

As I said, no magic bullet.
Haha, I had to like your comment because the new 600pp seasonal at Tsukuba. I too was running with 0.0 camber front and rear on the NSX-R LM Road car. I ran about 5 or 6 laps and was hitting low 54's. I then remembered this controversial camber works but it doesnt thread and said "what the hell, I'll try 1.0 rear camber" and you know what, I immediately went 53.8, 53.7, 53.4 before I came to this thread again. Maybe it was a fluke, but I don't think so. I use ds3, so maybe thats a reason, but I did nothing different to the setup. I went back and tried 0.0 front and rear again, back to 54.3, 54.2, 54.4! I never thought camber worked ever since my bro told me. Now he's going for it with this finding.
 
I get improvement from some amount of camber, on all cars, in 100% of cases. That's pretty consistent.

You still misunderstand.

Just because you can do it doesn't make it consistent. If you can do it but other people cannot, then that raises questions. Is it because of something that they're doing differently? If so, what? Is it something that you're doing differently? Is it some artifact of your driving style, your setups, your test methods?

This is why peer review exists. It's great that you can be consistent with your own tests, but if others cannot replicate it then that's reason to continue to question what's happening until you can understand the reasons why.

The debatable point is, what is "improvement"? In my test, cars with some degree of camber set a faster lap 100% of the time compared to no camber. It never ever varies. Is the grip improved? Lateral grip is.How much camber? Not much. How much improvement? Sometimes a little, Sometimes a lot.

And mine do not. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

What am I supposed to do with this information? Throw it away and accept yours? This is what I mean by not consistent.

Until I can integrate all the information available to me, I will remain undecided on what I think of camber in GT6. Of course, one way to do that is to rule out certain sets of data as unreliable or corrupt, and that would be an easy way for me to cherry pick what I wanted. But I rather think that most of the people in this thread have been fairly diligent and thorough in their testing, and so I'm loathe to simply ignore their data because it doesn't give me an answer straight away.

In the end, it doesn't really matter if you chose to believe it or not. I go faster with it, therefore I advocate it. This has come from my testing for my purposes.

It's not about belief.

I don't have to believe that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. I can observe it doing so.
When I can observe the effects of camber in a clear and unambiguous manner, I will have the same confidence.

The only definitive answer that will satisfy any doubters is to administer their own testing regime.

Did you manage to ignore the last two posts where I advocated exactly that?

How it that you can manage to say this, and still argue with me because my testing has not shown what yours has?
 
Haha, I had to like your comment because the new 600pp seasonal at Tsukuba. I too was running with 0.0 camber front and rear on the NSX-R LM Road car. I ran about 5 or 6 laps and was hitting low 54's. I then remembered this controversial camber works but it doesnt thread and said "what the hell, I'll try 1.0 rear camber" and you know what, I immediately went 53.8, 53.7, 53.4 before I came to this thread again. Maybe it was a fluke, but I don't think so. I use ds3, so maybe thats a reason, but I did nothing different to the setup. I went back and tried 0.0 front and rear again, back to 54.3, 54.2, 54.4! I never thought camber worked ever since my bro told me. Now he's going for it with this finding.

Interesting. Did you only add rear camber or both front and rear? I have hypothesized that adding rear camber generates less rear grip and more rotation, therefore, quicker lap times? Just wondering if you stumbled upon the same phenomenon?
 
Interesting. Did you only add rear camber or both front and rear? I have hypothesized that adding rear camber generates less rear grip and more rotation, therefore, quicker lap times? Just wondering if you stumbled upon the same phenomenon?
Only 1.0 rear. No camber up front, yet.
 
And mine do not. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

reading @trustjab 's post, it sounds like in his case, it worked :)

This seasonal event sure seems like a great test bed for everyone in this thread.

Interesting. Did you only add rear camber or both front and rear? I have hypothesized that adding rear camber generates less rear grip and more rotation, therefore, quicker lap times? Just wondering if you stumbled upon the same phenomenon?

It isn't linear. In the case of my vette, removing camber created less grip.

I found that the optimal camber angle correlated to weight and weight distribution. So, a heavier car gained from a tenth or two more camber, and the heavy end benefited from more camber than the light end.
 
I get improvement from some amount of camber, on all cars, in 100% of cases. That's pretty consistent.

The debatable point is, what is "improvement"? In my test, cars with some degree of camber set a faster lap 100% of the time compared to no camber. It never ever varies. Is the grip improved? Lateral grip is.How much camber? Not much. How much improvement? Sometimes a little, Sometimes a lot.

In the end, it doesn't really matter if you chose to believe it or not. I go faster with it, therefore I advocate it. This has come from my testing for my purposes.

The only definitive answer that will satisfy any doubters is to administer their own testing regime.
Sounds like you've got quite a garage full of camber working tunes. We look forward to seeing some of them.
Haha, I had to like your comment because the new 600pp seasonal at Tsukuba. I too was running with 0.0 camber front and rear on the NSX-R LM Road car. I ran about 5 or 6 laps and was hitting low 54's. I then remembered this controversial camber works but it doesnt thread and said "what the hell, I'll try 1.0 rear camber" and you know what, I immediately went 53.8, 53.7, 53.4 before I came to this thread again. Maybe it was a fluke, but I don't think so. I use ds3, so maybe thats a reason, but I did nothing different to the setup. I went back and tried 0.0 front and rear again, back to 54.3, 54.2, 54.4! I never thought camber worked ever since my bro told me. Now he's going for it with this finding.
We look forward to seeing this tune.
 
The only thing that I'm convinced of, after 13 pages of responses, is that people who feel like camber provides a benefit still believe that and people who feel camber only hurts a setup still believe that. Is there a single person following this thread that has changed opinions on the subject since reading this thread? Please, let me know if you have changed your opinion. I would be very interested in hearing what it was that changed your opinion. :)

I've changed my mind three times already.
 
Back