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Yeah, our gangs just carry butter knives, apparently.
Islam - What's your view on it?
- Thread starter SalmanBH
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All expenses paid trip to the opinions section of the world renouned GTPlanet forums!*
*The operator is not responsible for any damage that may be caused from this trip.
Seriously though, it seems the threads are all merging at the moment. Can't you guys just call a truce of sorts and agree to disagree on your fundamental beliefs of left or right or whatever?
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yep, I also don't feel the need for gun permit. I have just wakizashi for home defence, which should be effective in pretty much disarmed society.
Uh..okay guys, I'm not sure why and how did you went from "talking about islam" thread to "Gun Laws" thread but I guess we're going offtopic and need to come back to the topic.
To me, Daesh isn't and won't considered as a country. To me, that's a total insults to consider them as anything but some total insane, mindless thinking, murderers, who wants to ruin the whole world by killing innocent people all around the world for not agreeing with them and ruining the image of muslims or even middle easterns.
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And one explanation of why the dislike for Abbott away from demonstrating point completely missed....... again.
As ever, so valuable to get a direct and informed overview from you.
Given what you've stated, my mind goes to the question of whether or not Islam is actively being divorced from cultures and states by it's peoples, or if that it is largely only passively taking place due to assimilation within countries with secular predominance. Shockingly though, there appears to be concurrently a surge in solidifying the attaching of cultural-isms and state-isms (should and should not dos, under false pretenses) to the religion, within the very same secular countries. We basically see both active regression and passive progression as dominant forces. If true, I find that a worry. Using the burqa, niqab, hijab cultural phenomenon as a simple and accessible example - should we see more active progression rather than merely passive progression from Muslims? I think that not actively separating purely cultural practices is doing the religion a great disservice.
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I just quoted the relevant part. I didn't even bother to follow the link because I could guess where it led - to a post that you have stored away, waiting for the opportune moment to bring it up to attack someone. It doesn't matter who posted it, what they posted, or why. Odds are that it contradicts whatever you posted yesterday, and equally likely as what you will post tomorrow.
mister dog
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No idea if this was posted here already, but i'm not eager to check 100 pages to find out so here it goes:
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I agree with you here. Let's run with the hijab and niqab example as you've used that one and it is a good one to run with. In Islam, through the teachings of Muhammad, it is encouraged for women (and even men actually to certain extents) to cover up. This much is true. However, in Islam that is never forced upon anyone. Fast forward a millenium and we see a time where this religious action turns into some cultural system in which males force females to wear a scarf and cover their faces. Do not do that and you are punished in some which way. This is not Islam, but to those who do not know (both Muslims and those who are not Muslim alike) this can easily be confused as Islam. It is at the end of the day to do with Muslims, and it is about an Islamic dress, so how can it not be? And it is from this that we end up with all these misconceptions, misdeeds and scaremongering. Sadly some of the scaremongering is from those who actually DO know better but just run with it.
Another really good example is the whole concept of women and work. The majority of Muslims trace roots back to Africa, the East/Far East and the Middle East. I have roots in all of those places, as well as Great Britain. Focussing primarily on the East, talking about places like India, there has been a historical notion of women not being allowed to work at all, even if they want to. This winds its way into religion and suddenly Islam is a religion that does not allow women to work. This again is not the case, but thanks to culture becoming entangled with religion by merely the slimmest of threads it ties the two together and then we're back in the rut where people don't know what is religion and what is not.
Bringing that to what you say about actively seperating culture from religion, you're completely right. But this is starting, and has been becoming more active for a few years now. The issue however is that people tend to hold a lot of pride. And when they are told they are wrong, they do not like it and quite often fail to listen or even care. And until we can get through to those people, we're not going to be able to split culture and religion effectively enough. Don't get me wrong though. Islam says nothing about not having culture. Culture is important. But it is also important to stop cultural practises that are wrong, and make a clear definition between religion and culture. From being a leader on Human rights, Literacy and Science to slipping right down on all three is unacceptable. It is not Islamic and therefore this has to change. And the first step to change has to be recognising it happening and taking accountability and responsibility over it. It's started but it may take some time, especially when you have the likes of PM David Cameron spewing out things against Islam for who knows what reason.
Next up, moving to @mister dog's video link! The first point Mr Hitchens makes is correct. The Qur'an does not say that. However from there on in, he constantly goes on bashing anyone who does not agree with him. The Archbishop of Cantebury is a very nice man, and he does exactly what all leaders should be doing and bringing communities together. As to his call for Shari'ah law, well that I will say is generally quite unnecessary. As I have explained before that those laws can only be practised in a fully Islamic country. That being said, when people think Shari'ah law they think about nothing but cutting off the hands of thieves and all that. I've been through that before and needless to say the ruling that even can possibly constitute that sort of punishment is so stringent that out of a million thieves you may get a single one who could possibly qualify for that. And even then that percentage may be too high. Shari'ah laws in their base form barely differ from the base laws of every civilised country. The laws we have in the UK with regards to ownership, education, accountability, crime and punishment, religious liberties etc ALL are virtually identical to Shari'ah laws, so in that sense there is already a bunch of Shari'ah law in the UK. It's common law, including the Magna Carta and all that.
I watched the video (with difficulty since the more I watched it the more I found a dislike for Mr Hitchens). When he spoke about Madressas (an arabic term for a school for those who wish to know) preaching hate for people, I was rather disgusted. I spent ten years or so at a number of Madressas and I can tell you exactly what I learnt (having a photographic memory helps here!):
My first year or two was spent learning how to read the Arabic language, nothing more. Meaning was not important, it was only important that we could understand what letter was pronounced in what way. We also learnt the basics of Islam in terms of the five pillars, how to perform Wudhu - the purification of the body in a specific way before prayers (without ending up with soaked clothing as I often did) and how to have a game of paper football without ever getting caught.
Then once we had a grasp of that we were taught ten key chapters of the Quran (all very short, you can find them all in the last few pages of the Quran) as well as the opening, and taught how to perform the second pillar, Salah. By the time we had covered all of these we had got to a stage where we were able to read the Quran. Slowly, but still readable. From there on in the focus was simple. Each student would finish the entire Qur'an in front of a teacher over the period of however long it took the student. Usually at a rate of half a page a day, it would take quite some years. In addition to this a student was to learn a few things. One was called 'Fiqh'. This was basically all the things that made someone Muslim from a spiritual perspective. So it was all about the finer points of prayer, cleansing etc. Another was called 'Akhlaaq/Adaab'. This means 'Manners/Respect' and there were books teaching about the way in which you should treat others, from your friends to your parents, animals and even objects whether they were yours or not. There were lessons why stealing was wrong or why everyone deserves respect, and these were often coupled with stories of various Prophets and even mentions of other well known people, both Muslim or not alike. We also learnt 'Hadith' which of course needs no explaning now. I still remember the first ones I ever learnt. 'Actions are judged by intentions', 'Do not hate', 'Do not become jealous', 'A strong man is not the one who is strong in wrestling but the one who can control his anger' etc. We also learnt (though I am sure this was not intended) how to look after Tamagotchis whilst hiding them from teachers. However, not once through all of that was there a mention of hating Jews, or Christians, or Atheists, or the Shia community, or the Crusades. And when I mean not once I meant that VERY literally.
Mr Hitchens then goes on to talk about Qur'ans written to the Wahabbi tune. Firstly, this whole Wahabbi thing is a mess in itself. The mass majority of the Saudi people are Humbli in their school of thought, which is a school under the Sunni division. Furthermore, if you were to pick up a Qur'an from Saudi and then one from South Africa and then one from the UK and another from the USA, you will find them Identical. As for translations of the Qur'an there are not many that are accepted, and all this information can be found on the internet if you know where to look.
All in all, Mr Hitchens IS Islamaphobic. Well actually he seemed rather anti all religions. Stories about little pigs not being told in schools in England? Excuse me? Every child knows the stories of the three little pigs and the big bad wolf! And the piggies that went to market? And that explains so much why Pepper Pig is a regular show on British TV for little children.
As for HRH Prince Charles, I must admit I do not like him too much but he is doing his best in recent years to bring faiths together and I take my hat off to him. Well I would if I were wearing one. Mr Hitchens is talking out of a hole other than that in which his tongue resides I am afraid, and falling for his nonsense is potentially as risky as falling for Mr Trumps nonsense. Both of which could in time prove to be as deadly as the nonsense spewed out by the so called 'Islamic State'. Hope that helps!
And an apology for quite a length post.
mister dog
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@ECGadget Nice explanation and interesting personal experience with regards to attending a madressa 
. I believe each man should be free to practice whatever belief he holds dearly, as long as he is not molesting other minded people with it. And that's a bit the problem with religion in general, as these old verses open the door for a lot of interpretation which means evil minded people can get their justification out of the same book as the good minded ones that way. It seems you notice the negative effects of religious extremism a lot more than the positive effects of the religion itself sadly, so i can understand where Christopher Hitchens is coming from when one states its better to get rid of religious power entirely as to avoid these issues (which doesn't mean to say we need to get rid of religion itself).
IMO sharia law has no place in Western culture however; seeing women being stoned to death for alleged adultery, hands or heads chopped of, or gays being thrown of rooftops proofs that to me. And that's aside from things like women having to cover up and things like music, alcohol or smoking being outlawed which could also be part of the deal.
Sharia law stems from the middle ages and in many ways it shows.
. I believe each man should be free to practice whatever belief he holds dearly, as long as he is not molesting other minded people with it. And that's a bit the problem with religion in general, as these old verses open the door for a lot of interpretation which means evil minded people can get their justification out of the same book as the good minded ones that way. It seems you notice the negative effects of religious extremism a lot more than the positive effects of the religion itself sadly, so i can understand where Christopher Hitchens is coming from when one states its better to get rid of religious power entirely as to avoid these issues (which doesn't mean to say we need to get rid of religion itself).IMO sharia law has no place in Western culture however; seeing women being stoned to death for alleged adultery, hands or heads chopped of, or gays being thrown of rooftops proofs that to me. And that's aside from things like women having to cover up and things like music, alcohol or smoking being outlawed which could also be part of the deal.
Sharia law stems from the middle ages and in many ways it shows.
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@ECGadget Nice explanation and interesting personal experience with regards to attending a madressa
IMO sharia law has no place in Western culture however; seeing women being stoned to death for alleged adultery, hands or heads chopped of, or gays being thrown of rooftops proofs that to me. And that's aside from things like women having to cover up and things like music, alcohol or smoking being outlawed which could also be part of the deal.
Sharia law stems from the middle ages and in many ways it shows.
This I will agree with, because it is very true that with religious texts open to some form of interpretation you end up with evil minded people using it for evil actions. And of course this is always highlighted. And of course, your opinion on the place of Shari'ah law is also understandable. As a matter of fact, had I not had the education from the 'inside' as it were I would be completely agreeing with you there too because that is what we see don't we? It's a sad state of affairs and it does not really correlate with what Shari'ah principles seem to be. I most certainly do not want people stoned to death or beheaded or pushed off of roofs. But that's not exactly Shari'ah law but an interpretation of it that has a place in the middle ages, like you said. There is much of Shari'ah law that is fine and identical to what we have and in many ways stays truer to the spirit of the law than some do today. But, I am not a jurist so that is not something I can have lengthy discussions about sadly!
But on your first point about practising beliefs, you make a good point that incidentally is part of Shari'ah law sets anyway. And that is believing what you wish whilst not infringing the rights or beliefs of others. Without that, there is no peaceful coexistance between anybody.
Edit: Corrected bad grammar.
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mister dog
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Indeed. I fear the situation we have now will only escalate as is already evident. It follows the plan of ISIS perfectly as it is setting up people in the west against moderate Muslims, forcing us to pick a side when it eventually ends in a clash of civilizations.
I fear for the future of both my kids as well as yours in a world ruled by extremists, but we are gradually heading that way and there's not much we can do to stop it. I think 2016 will bring more ISIS inspired attacks and problems with this massive amount of refugees that is entering the EU, and more and more western people starting to support right winged populists as the liberal politicians we have now seem incompetent to deal with the current crisis.
Dotini
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Add in the economic problems brewing, and you're likely to get those right-wing populists combined with the left-wing populists against the establishment. That's what's happening on this side of the pond.
mister dog
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I'm isolating this part of your post because I want clarification on what is Islamic in your opinion. Are you saying then that a country like Saudi Arabia, for example, is not an Islamic society in the true sense of the word? Any country that proclaims to be Islamic but forces women into subservience with less than equal rights, does not truly represent Islam? Any country where the LGBTQ etc. community is not accepted is not Islamic? Is any country that strictly enforces the more brutal and unjust practices of Sharia law unIslamic by definition? Which Islamic states or regions, in your opinion, are truly Islamic? Or is true Islam only practiced by individuals and not political and governmental entities?
Come to Canada. It's paradise here, we just don't shout about it. Zero sarcasm intended.
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@Johnnypenso Saudi Arabia is a country that has a major significance in Islam, particularly the cities of Makkah and Madinah. So on the face of it, it must be a very Islamic country. However, when it comes to governments and politics we all know how they twist anything to suit their views and work for them. I am not saying that the entire government of every Muslim country is corrupt. BUT there are factors at play (money tends to be one, power another) which results in people being greedy and ignoring what their beliefs may say. If an Islamic country is forcing women to be some form of second class citizen, then they are not being very Islamic in that practise. Maybe they are in others, but not that. Similarly, if the Prophet Muhammad could live in complete peace with fire worshippers, why can the Governments not live in peace with communities that are different to theirs? I would say that whilst all Muslim countries have Islamic laws applied correctly, they also ignore some around. And then some go as far to say that they implement full Shari'ah law, which leads us to what we have today. Mass confusion.
In my opinion, it seems only individuals or small communities really seem to grasp some of the points of Islam that others ignore. To that extent perhaps only individuals do practise Islam in the way it was meant to be. But to end on a disclaimer: I do not know every single inner working of Saudi Arabia. All I know is what I see. Maybe they have ended up stuck in a culture rut like I mentioned before. I know that Arabia was once like that and perhaps that has surfaced over time and needs to find its way back out? It is possible...
In my opinion, it seems only individuals or small communities really seem to grasp some of the points of Islam that others ignore. To that extent perhaps only individuals do practise Islam in the way it was meant to be. But to end on a disclaimer: I do not know every single inner working of Saudi Arabia. All I know is what I see. Maybe they have ended up stuck in a culture rut like I mentioned before. I know that Arabia was once like that and perhaps that has surfaced over time and needs to find its way back out? It is possible...
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Islam suffers the same issues as other large religions. Around every corner there lurks a different interpretation. That brings more harm than good.
The solution is easy, on paper that is, work out the differences and realise you're all reading the same text or stop reading it all together and join us, the sinful but coexisting atheists. Unless there is football on tv.
The solution is easy, on paper that is, work out the differences and realise you're all reading the same text or stop reading it all together and join us, the sinful but coexisting atheists. Unless there is football on tv.
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No, it's not.
I didn't say that they had to realise they're reading the same text. They can continue to believe that they're not, and indeed many religions and sects literally aren't reading the same texts.
It doesn't matter what people think, it matters what they do. They don't have to work out the differences, they don't have to make compromises, they just have to not be dicks to each other. You prescribed working through their differences or simply abandoning their beliefs altogether. I prescribed nothing of the sort, simply moderating their actions.
You don't need to understand or even like the guy next to you in order to not bash his head in with a rock. He can be your worst enemy and you can disagree vehemently with everything that he stands for and it's still possible to not be a dick to him.
That was the juxtaposition that I was making to your post, that you apparently missed.
