Islam - What's your view on it?

[novcze]

Out of interest, how would you describe "people like him"?

people who think for themselves and their thinking is based in reality? ... don't dissect it so much, there was smiley at the end of the sentence which should indicate something.

And it's happening and continues to happen. So what?

Can you give me any example of reformation in progress, that have a chance to be accepted across islamic world. Or you meant slow change that will happen as a result of many factors in the course of centuries?

 

[mister dog]

Feel free to debunk his arguments.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Feel free to debunk his arguments.

It's self-debunking, surely? I got as far as "only Islam tells its followers to kill non-believers". At that point there's no reason to listen to more - he doesn't know what he's talking about.

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

His agenda is both narrow and very poorly-informed. You don't have to be a fan of religious scholars to expect them to do a better job than a YobTub loudmouth... this video certainly proves that a little bit of knowledge is dangerous

 

[mister dog]

It's self-debunking, surely? I got as far as "only Islam tells its followers to kill non-believers". At that point there's no reason to listen to more - he doesn't know what he's talking about.His agenda is both narrow and very poorly-informed. You don't have to be a fan of religious scholars to expect them to do a better job than a YobTub loudmouth... this video certainly proves that a little bit of knowledge is dangerous

You're misquoting him, he doesn't say: "only Islam tells its followers to kill non-believers"? Can you point me to where exactly in the video he says this?

 

[TenEightyOne]

You're misquoting him, he doesn't say: "only Islam tells its followers to kill non-believers"? Can you point me to where exactly in the video he says this?

Fair point, I mis-thought.

Let's try this; "Is a baptised Catholic commanded in scripture to kill his girlfriend or mother-in-law? No!". Wrong. In fact, those with the cleanest records get first dibs.

His bibble knowledge still isn't that great, funny that he talks about Papal Infallability so often...

 

[mister dog]

Fair point, I mis-thought.

Let's try this; "Is a baptised Catholic commanded in scripture to kill his girlfriend or mother-in-law? No!". Wrong. In fact, those with the cleanest records get first dibs.

His bibble knowledge still isn't that great, funny that he talks about Papal Infallability so often...

He's quite the devoted christian so i think he knows his books. I'm not one myself but i understand his points very clearly. Making the comparison between any murder and the 'religion' that person coincidentally has, to someone who kills just because of that religion and nothing else is in itself a very bad example.

The 2 simply aren't related and the pope should have known better

 

[TenEightyOne]

He's quite the devoted christian so i think he knows his books.

Try doing the research yourself instead of accepting what he says in blind faith?

 

[sumbrownkid]

When Islam was introduced the non-believers were those who worshipped the idols in the Kabah at Makkah at the time. In Islamic tradition, Jews and Christians are not considered non-believers as they are considered people of the book and not based in idolic worship.

However jihadists in their infinite wisdom believe that the definition of "non-believer" is anyone who does not follow Islam and indeed even Muslims who do not believe in their definition of what Islam is.

In fact I think Zorastrianism is not considered "non-believer" status since they are monotheistic at its core. And if I remember correctly from my Islamic studies class at the University of South Florida, the prophet himself never mentioned them as such.

See the issue with just going by the Qu'ran raw style sushi is that a lot of history went alongside during each revelation. It wasn't given in one night, it was given over 20 years, and of lot things happen in that time. War, peace, love, hate, etc. And the Qu'ran addresses it as the issue came and went. And the aggravating part, is that Muslims themselves just blindly go along with the scriptures without reading as to why such a revelation came.

See a person can read a book all they want and know the words, but do they really understand it? I'm not pretending I do, and in fact I'm quite sure TenEightyOne understands more about it than I do.



This video is a good show on a core issue with the Quran: translation.

 

[mister dog]

Try doing the research yourself instead of accepting what he says in blind faith?

He says what it says in the Koran, and he says what the pope literally stated. Can't get more black on white than that i think.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Because holy books are never contradictory ...

 

[mister dog]

Because holy books are never contradictory ...

Not in the minds of extremists no.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Not in the minds of extremists no.

Then how about you make that distinction in future?

He says what it says in the Koran, and he says what the pope literally stated. Can't get more black on white than that i think.

This posts implies all Muslims observe everything that the Qu'ran says, which in turn implies that all Muslims are extremists. And then you wonder why people think you're a bigot.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

But surely all Muslims think the Quran is perfect...?

 

[FoRiZon]

But surely all Muslims think the Quran is perfect...?

As much as like every religious person thinks their holy book is perfect per se.

Also less "all" and more "devout".

 

[TenEightyOne]

But surely all Muslims think the Quran is perfect...?

If they thought something so facile then there wouldn't be around twenty different versions. Then there's the qualification in hadith. Your problem might be your perennial reliance on "surely all Muslims think..."?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

As much as like every religious person thinks their holy book is perfect per se.

Also less "all" and more "devout".

If they thought something so facile then there wouldn't be around twenty different versions. Then there's the qualification in hadith. Your problem might be your perennial reliance on "surely all Muslims think..."?

It consistently boggles my mind that Muslims are held to a different standard to every other follower of every other faith by people analysing the precepts of those faiths. Followers of other faiths are free to choose which parts of their scriptures most apply to them, but Muslims are expected to observe every last syllable of the Qu'ran by the people "analysing" the faiths. I use the quotation marks quite deliberately, because there is no real analysis going on; these people are quite clearly trying to forcibly group every Muslim in under the banner of extremism.

It's quite sad when you think about it. They claim to hate extremism in all its forms, and no doubt they do, but this is really about their insecurities. They need someone to hate, someone who can be the sum of all their fears, because then they can tell themselves that they are right, that their way of life is best.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Oh, so logically it follows a lot of Muslims believe the Quran isn't perfect and the direct transcription of Allah?

I never knew that

 

[Scaff]

He's quite the devoted christian so i think he knows his books. I'm not one myself but i understand his points very clearly. Making the comparison between any murder and the 'religion' that person coincidentally has, to someone who kills just because of that religion and nothing else is in itself a very bad example.

The 2 simply aren't related and the pope should have known better

He's an evangelical Christian and Christian apologist with a track record of bending the truth in regard to Islam, Muslims and atheists.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Oh, so logically it follows a lot of Muslims believe the Quran isn't perfect and the direct transcription of Allah?

No more or less than the Bible and the Torah are a direct transcription of God.

 

[FoRiZon]

It consistently boggles my mind that Muslims are held to a different standard to every other follower of every other faith by people analysing the precepts of those faiths. Followers of other faiths are free to choose which parts of their scriptures most apply to them, but Muslims are expected to observe every last syllable of the Qu'ran by the people "analysing" the faiths. I use the quotation marks quite deliberately, because there is no real analysis going on; these people are quite clearly trying to forcibly group every Muslim in under the banner of extremism.

It's quite sad when you think about it. They claim to hate extremism in all its forms, and no doubt they do, but this is really about their insecurities. They need someone to hate, someone who can be the sum of all their fears, because then they can tell themselves that they are right, that their way of life is best.

And then realizing why this thread exists in the first place and not other religions got the same treatment.

 

[LeMansAid]

And then realizing why this thread exists in the first place and not other religions got the same treatment.

This thread was started by someone that appears to be a Muslim. The "Do You Believe in God?" thread was started by someone that appeared to create it for the express purpose of being able to answer no to their own question. I very much suspect that the OP of that thread had the God of The Bible in mind when it was created.

So, there's that.

 

[FoRiZon]

This thread was started by someone that appears to be a Muslim. The "Do You Believe in God?" thread was started by someone that appeared to create it for the express purpose of being able to answer no to their own question. I very much suspect that the OP of that thread had the God of The Bible in mind when it was created.

So, there's that.

Fair enough. Im kind of skewed considering that you cant really discuss this (the religion, not the extremists) on any other forums since it'll a guarantee ban. Only GTP

Thanks, really.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Oh, so logically it follows a lot of Muslims believe the Quran isn't perfect and the direct transcription of Allah?

I didn't say "a lot of Muslims", I don't know why you thought we were debating the figure?

However, at least now you know that the quran's self-stated perfection (as with the bibble) is open to interpretation by regular muslims and scholars alike.

 

[novcze]

It consistently boggles my mind that Muslims are held to a different standard to every other follower of every other faith by people analysing the precepts of those faiths. Followers of other faiths are free to choose which parts of their scriptures most apply to them, but Muslims are expected to observe every last syllable of the Qu'ran by the people "analysing" the faiths. I use the quotation marks quite deliberately, because there is no real analysis going on; these people are quite clearly trying to forcibly group every Muslim in under the banner of extremism.

ohh, how is that even possible ... wait I know, if some part of the scripture can justify mass murdering and followers of said part of the scripture are actively practicing their faith and people are reading the news like these almost every day

Belgium police attack: Man shouting 'Allahu Akbar' attacks two officers in Charleroi with machete

then people will start to ask questions and it's rather pathetic to blame them if they come up with first obvious answer.
I can guarantee that nobody would give a damn about islam if it wasn't muslims who killed hundreds of people in last year in the Europe.

 

[mustafur]

It consistently boggles my mind that Muslims are held to a different standard to every other follower of every other faith by people analysing the precepts of those faiths. Followers of other faiths are free to choose which parts of their scriptures most apply to them, but Muslims are expected to observe every last syllable of the Qu'ran by the people "analysing" the faiths. I use the quotation marks quite deliberately, because there is no real analysis going on; these people are quite clearly trying to forcibly group every Muslim in under the banner of extremism.

It's quite sad when you think about it. They claim to hate extremism in all its forms, and no doubt they do, but this is really about their insecurities. They need someone to hate, someone who can be the sum of all their fears, because then they can tell themselves that they are right, that their way of life is best.

Not every religion is the same, so holding all at the same standard isn't something that makes that much sense, for instance name me one religion other then Islam that can put my life in danger if I drew a picture of a religious figure?

Islam also has a political philosophy that the other major religions do not have, which can and are effecting people outside the faith in todays world.

The question here isn't the Muslims, it's the Islam.

 

[mister dog]

This posts implies all Muslims observe everything that the Qu'ran says, which in turn implies that all Muslims are extremists. And then you wonder why people think you're a bigot.

You're like the oracle of everyone's hidden agenda
Don't take my words out of context again, i said that he read verses from the Koran, which he did.

It consistently boggles my mind that Muslims are held to a different standard to every other follower of every other faith by people analysing the precepts of those faiths. Followers of other faiths are free to choose which parts of their scriptures most apply to them, but Muslims are expected to observe every last syllable of the Qu'ran by the people "analysing" the faiths. I use the quotation marks quite deliberately, because there is no real analysis going on; these people are quite clearly trying to forcibly group every Muslim in under the banner of extremism.

It's quite sad when you think about it. They claim to hate extremism in all its forms, and no doubt they do, but this is really about their insecurities. They need someone to hate, someone who can be the sum of all their fears, because then they can tell themselves that they are right, that their way of life is best.

And here you go again concluding what 'everybody must think' that criticizes Islam. Maybe Muslims are held to a different standard when it comes to their extremism, because they kill thousands of people each year with terrorist attacks just because of said religion?
💡

He's an evangelical Christian and Christian apologist with a track record of bending the truth in regard to Islam, Muslims and atheists.

Yet i haven't heard one valid argument to contradict what he states. @TenEightyOne tried with a misquote, i saw many taking what he said completely out of context, and i saw people trying to discredit the man instead of what he said, just like you are doing here.

Belgium police attack: Man shouting 'Allahu Akbar' attacks two officers in Charleroi with machete

Probably another 'lone wolf' with mental issues. Has nothing to do with Islam.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@TenEightyOne tried with a misquote

Which I fixed, I already apologised (ish)

His claims (including the second one that I highlighted for you) are wrong. The bible does indeed allow for killing in jihad (I translated the word into Arabic for your ease of understanding) and it does indeed allow you to kill your girlfriend or mother-in-law. Catholicism and jihad, or even Catholicism and violence are not exclusive despite his claims that they are. Unsurprisingly the bible is as self-contradictory on these subjects as the quran.

I'll leave you with Colossians 3:15... and another little Arabic translation to enjoy. Ho hum.

"Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to islam."

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And here you go again concluding what 'everybody must think' that criticizes Islam.

Concluding correctly. It's quite obvious that you don't see much of a difference between an extremist and a practicing Muslim; at the very least, you seem to expect that all Muslims are regarded with suspicion until they can prove that they think just like you - which would be ironic if it wasn't so terrifying, as your views make you something on an extremist yourself.

 

[mister dog]

You should become a profiler for the gov. You are that good at it!

 

[Scaff]

Feel free to debunk his arguments.

Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Oh look Christians are instructed to kill unbelievers as part of the faith as well.

He also followed the normal pattern of verbal slight of hand by forgetting utterly that Jihad is not just violent, but rather simply means struggle.

Then again I have already explained this to you in regard to another of his videos in he Nice thread, so I'm a little surprised you have forgotten it so soon.

Next time please actually explain what nonsense he is banging on about so I can save myself from watching his blindly biased bollocks.