Islam - What's your view on it?

[HKS racer]

Hmmm lets see.

None of the ones I work with, shop in and speak to on a daily basis have tried to murder me or my family.
They actively condemn the actions of IS and fundamentalism in general.
1.6 million people can't keep an act of the nature your claiming going for decades.

What you are claiming is as stupid as claiming that because all of the members of the IRA were catholic that means all catholics are terrorists (which means I married a lapsed terrorist). Its the lazy non-argument of the ignorant and scared and has no place in an intelligent debate on the subject (and this is coming from someone who has no time for religion full stop).

So if they are that good I guess they'll have no problem joning your Country and go fighting ISIS for the freedom of all humanity if one day the Nation where they live the Nation that gave them a work and a new life, decide it's time to go there and stop these barbarities.

I've heard next beheaded victim is supposed to be a british journalist, did you hear that?

 

[Furinkazen]

So if they are that good I guess they'll have no problem joning your Country and go fighting ISIS for the freedom of all humanity if one day the Nation where they live the Nation that gave them a work and a new life, decide it's time to go there and stop these barbarities.

I've heard next beheaded victim is supposed to be a british journalist, did you hear that?

I believe you need to really to do some research and come back here. 0.06 of UK muslims are Jihadists. The other 99.94% are not, and the majority of them condone the actions of groups like ISIS. Indeed, majority of muslims in Iraq condemn ISIS. I think you need find the source of this quite frankly ludicrous slant you have and get rid of it, and look at the cold hard facts and figures.

 

[HKS racer]

I believe you need to really to do some research and come back here. 0.06 of UK muslims are Jihadists. The other 99.94% are not, and the majority of them condone the actions of groups like ISIS. Indeed, majority of muslims in Iraq condone ISIS. I think you need find the source of this quite frankly ludicrous slant you have and get rid of it, and look at the cold hard facts and figures.

Meanwhile...
https://translate.google.it/translate?sl=it&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/politica/immigrato-macedone-che-viveva-nel-bellunese-caduto-Siria-1048682.html&edit-text=

Google translated.

From Veneto to jihad: a dead "Italian"
Macedonian immigrant who lived in the Belluno fallen in Syria. Lost track of the three year old son of another fighter


Gian Micalessin - Wed, 03/09/2014 - 08:00
commenta
Now the dead are two and the "spiral Balkan" is dramatic reality. The Journal was among the first to talk about it. On 21 June we revealed the existence of a jihadist network with bases in Bosnia and Kosovo committed to adherents among immigrants Slav Muslims in the Northeast Italian to convince them to go and fight and die in Syria. Until that time the suspects in Triveneto jihadist infiltration is limited to the case of Ismar Mesinovic, a decorator Bosnian party from Ponte delle Alpi in the Belluno going to die on the battlefields of Syrians.

A start to Mesinovic preceded in June 2013 by a meeting with a Bosnian Salafi preacher in the area of Pordenone. Now, however, the dead have become two. In Syria, was also killed Munifer Karamaleski, a 30 year-old Macedonian Muslim - a friend of Mesinovic - resident Chies d'Alpago, a little town of Belluno, where he lived with his wife and three young children. Munifer left for Syria at the same time or shortly after Ismar Mesinovic, would have fallen in combat three months away from the companion of faith and adventure. According to Gianluca Dal Borgo, mayor of Chies d'Alpago, Karamaleski before reaching Syria had been deleted from the population of the town telling of wanting to go into Macedonia, together with their wives and children.

A Chies were left parents arrived in Italy eight years ago along with Munifer and his four siblings. "People polite and kind - remember the mayor - and perfectly integrated." But even more disturbing to render the death of this second jihadist party from Triveneto is added the plot with the mysterious story of Ismair Tabud, the little boy into the world in September 2011 by Lidia Solano Herrera, the Cuban wife of the "fallen" Ismair Mesinovic. Ismar Tabud disappears in November 2013 when his father steals his wife to take it with you in hell Syrian. On the death of Mesinovic - made dry by January 4 by a government sniper at the gates of Aleppo - the son passes, according to some reconstructions, in the hands of his Munifer Karamaleski. But the assignment did not last long. In March Munifer is also impallinato and at that point, according to the Bosnian daily Avaz Dvevni, poor Ismair Tabud is delivered to two of the many women who gravitate to the jihadist brigades with the functions of wives or 'pasionarie "dispensing sexual favors.

Since then, the small Ismair Tabud disappears into thin air. The rumors about the death of Karamaleski and the investigation of five alleged "recruiters" of the prosecutor's office in Venice and Padua Ros, but instead contribute to strengthening the hypothesis on the existence of a structure based in the Balkans, but ready to invest money to send in Italy their preachers in charge of luring "volunteers" from the Slavic Muslim immigration Triveneto. According to experts, the organization has already convinced of anti-thirty "volunteers" to leave Italy for Syria. "We suspect that these jihadists - explained a source in the newspaper - are a bit 'less' voluntary' than others and are induced from the promise of money or the stress of their religious leaders."

Not surprisingly, the departure of Ismar Mesinovic, had been preceded by the meeting with a Bosnian Salafi preacher in the area of Pordenone. But those of Mesinovic and Karamaleski are not isolated cases. According to our investigators hundreds of militants emerged from mosques in Bosnia and Kosovo are living today in Trieste, Belluno, Padova and Trento. And there, with the return of the veterans of Syria, the threat of a new root humus proto-terrorist very similar to that of Viale Jenner mosque in Milan where, in the nineties, Al Qaeda took root thanks to the veterans of the war in Bosnia.

 

[Furinkazen]

https://translate.google.it/translate?sl=it&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/politica/immigrato-macedone-che-viveva-nel-bellunese-caduto-Siria-1048682.html&edit-text=

I have just skimmed through and see no proof or statements that muslims are all black flag waving machine gun happy killers.

 

[HKS racer]

I have just skimmed through and see no proof or statements that muslims are all black flag waving machine gun happy killers.

Take your time. Read.

Not surprisingly, the departure of Ismar Mesinovic, had been preceded by the meeting with a Bosnian Salafi preacher in the area of Pordenone. But those of Mesinovic and Karamaleski are not isolated cases. According to our investigators hundreds of militants emerged from mosques in Bosnia and Kosovo are living today in Trieste, Belluno, Padova and Trento. And there, with the return of the veterans of Syria, the threat of a new root humus proto-terrorist very similar to that of Viale Jenner mosque in Milan where, in the nineties, Al Qaeda took root thanks to the veterans of the war in Bosnia.

 

[Spurgy 777]

And the majority of them condone the actions of groups like ISIS. Indeed, majority of muslims in Iraq condone ISIS.

Do you have any citations for this bit out of interest?

 

[Furinkazen]

Take your time. Read.

Not surprisingly, the departure of Ismar Mesinovic, had been preceded by the meeting with a Bosnian Salafi preacher in the area of Pordenone. But those of Mesinovic and Karamaleski are not isolated cases. According to our investigators hundreds of militants emerged from mosques in Bosnia and Kosovo are living today in Trieste, Belluno, Padova and Trento. And there, with the return of the veterans of Syria, the threat of a new root humus proto-terrorist very similar to that of Viale Jenner mosque in Milan where, in the nineties, Al Qaeda took root thanks to the veterans of the war in Bosnia.

Yes, militant groups. Which exist(ed) in other religions as well.

Do you have any citations for this bit out of interest?

ISIS operated in Iraq through terror. They were not swaying people to join them like a political movement garnering support. No, they move into cities and threaten "join and surrender or you all die". Against an Iraqi army that is not especially well trained or disciplined, they surrender or flee.
http://www.vox.com/2014/6/20/5824480/why-the-iraqi-army-cant-defeat-isis


Also I will point out I know people who have friends over in Iraq and I have heard about peoples thoughts from that side. Also, if you look at the ease with which they took cities, it not only points out to a total collapse by the Iraqi army, but also the fact civilians offered no resistance. Yet also they did not join, they fled.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/mosul-isis-gunmen-middle-east-states

ISIS are not going into cities and being welcomed with open arms. Their numbers are growing as all the other small groups and militants join them.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/isis-b...ch-the-militant-organization-may-be-1.2746332

Also, perhaps most frightening fact is that ISIS is that they are a breakaway group, they function independently of Al-Qaeda, who have long been the wests Jihad enemy.

 

[Dotini]

I have just skimmed through and see no proof or statements that muslims are all black flag waving machine gun happy killers.

That raises the question of what all Muslims actually do unequivocally believe in. Let me start a list. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
1) God, or Allah, as they say.
2) Life after death.
3) Sharia, or Islamic law governing the way life should be lived.
4) Jihad, whether supported by actual fighting, or supported financially, or supported by providing shelter and cover for those who do the fighting and the financing.

 

[Furinkazen]

That raises the questions of what all Muslims actually do unequivocally believe in. Let me start a list.
1) God, or Allah, as they say.
2) Life after death.
3) Sharia, or Islamic law governing the way life should be lived.
4) Jihad, whether supported by actual fighting, or supported financially, or supported by providing shelter and cover for those who do the fighting and the financing.

Christians believe in a God or Allah. They believe in a heaven and life after death. Why do we not treat them in same way?

Sharia law is Islamic, not applied by all muslims. It is an outdated notion.

Jihad loosely translated means "to rise against the oppressed". That doesn't mean by itself "take guns and kill all".


With a religion there is always a way, to twist the text to find the most outdated law and rule, verse, chapter, paragraph, and adopt it and use it to justify some cruel means. Always.

 

[doblocruiser]

I'll put up this again from an article I posted earlier:

“An Islamic state will always be what Muslims long for, therefore we cannot help but to support the Islamic State

 

[Furinkazen]

I'll put up this again from an article I posted earlier:

Illustrates my point entirely about being taken out of context. As soon as ISIS or Al Qaeda raise there head I do not see signs of 1.6 billion muslims suddenly embracing this "Islamic State". Indeed, if they wanted it, why haven't they adapted it? Because they don't want it.

 

[Dotini]

Christians believe in a God or Allah. They believe in a heaven and life after death. Why do we not treat them in same way?

I think most all Christians are apostate or hypocrites, and don't really believe much of their own doctrine, and certainly don't practice it. Christianity is old, tired and weak. Islam on the other hand, is much younger, stronger and much more fervent. Unlike us, they actually believe their own doctrine, walk their own talk.

 

[Furinkazen]

I think most all Christians are apostate or hypocrites, and don't really believe much of their own doctrine, and certainly don't practice it. Christianity is old, tired and weak. Islam on the hand, is much younger, stronger and and more fervent. Unlike us, they actually believe their own doctrine, walk their own talk.

I know some muslims who practice the faith properly and some who don't, and i'm yet to run into one who supports this Islamic State concept. In fac, they reject it.

 

[HKS racer]

Yes, militant groups. Which exist(ed) in other religions as well.

Militiant groups recruiting and touting through their preachers. Therefore any normal muslim risk to be ideologically influenced when they go to Mosque listening to these people.

 

[Furinkazen]

Militiant groups recruiting and touting through their preachers. Therefore any normal muslim risk to be ideologically influenced when they go to Mosque listening to these people.

Citation needed this happens at every mosque.

 

[Scaff]

So if they are that good I guess they'll have no problem joning your Country and go fighting ISIS for the freedom of all humanity if one day the Nation where they live the Nation that gave them a work and a new life, decide it's time to go there and stop these barbarities.

I've heard next beheaded victim is supposed to be a british journalist, did you hear that?

Good to see that you have systematically ignored just about everything I have posted and linked to.

You can oppose IS by doing mnore than joining the British Army (particularity given that they are not actually fighting IS), and I have shown plenty of evidence to show you how that is being done.

I can't help the fact that you are ignoring it.

That raises the question of what all Muslims actually do unequivocally believe in. Let me start a list. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
1) God, or Allah, as they say.
2) Life after death.
3) Sharia, or Islamic law governing the way life should be lived.
4) Jihad, whether supported by actual fighting, or supported financially, or supported by providing shelter and cover for those who do the fighting and the financing.

Nope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam

 

[SalmanBH]

I believe you need to really to do some research and come back here. 0.06 of UK muslims are Jihadists. The other 99.94% are not, and the majority of them condone the actions of groups like ISIS. Indeed, majority of muslims in Iraq condone ISIS. I think you need find the source of this quite frankly ludicrous slant you have and get rid of it, and look at the cold hard facts and figures.

The majority of Iraqi Muslims do not condone the actions of ISIS, but they merely cannot have any resistance since:

1. There is no stable government that can operate in some areas and maintain Iraqi rule.
2. The Iraqi military has either fled out of fear or has been persecuted in the areas in which some soldiers decided to stay in.
3. Minority Sunni Muslims have accepted radical political organisations such as IS due to their desperation and resentment of the Shi'ite Iraqi government.

That raises the question of what all Muslims actually do unequivocally believe in. Let me start a list. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
1) God, or Allah, as they say.
2) Life after death.
3) Sharia, or Islamic law governing the way life should be lived.
4) Jihad, whether supported by actual fighting, or supported financially, or supported by providing shelter and cover for those who do the fighting and the financing.

Firstly, Jihad is literally translated to strive and struggle. It comes in two types:

1. Jihad for the self
2. Jihad for the Ummah (the Islamic community)

For example, a student can perform Jihad against an upcoming exam. A mother can strive and struggle to raise her children. A doctor can strive to carry out research in order to come up with a cure for a disease. And lastly, the most extreme form of Jihad is financing battle in order to 'spread Islam', or join the fight yourself.

The second type is very ambiguous due to the fact that 'joining the fight' may not be the best thing to do, especially in this day and age where every state is sovereign and has its own political system and is already established. Even more so when you have a radical and extremist group such as the Islamic State, forcing people to join them by the sword or otherwise killing them.

You are wrong about those 4 'unequivocal beliefs' that Muslims have. There are five, and they are called pillars, which include:

- The Shahadah: The declaration that there is no God but God, and that Mohammed was his messenger.
- Salat: Praying five times a day.
- Zakat: Giving 2.5% of your income to the needy.
- Sawm or Siyam: Fasting the Holy Month of Ramadan
- Hajj: Performing pilgrimage to Mecca once in your lifetime if able during the month of Thu al Hijja

 

[Dotini]

The majority of Iraqi Muslims do not condone the actions of ISIS, but they merely cannot have any resistance since:

1. There is no stable government that can operate in some areas and maintain Iraqi rule.
2. The Iraqi military has either fled out of fear or has been persecuted in the areas in which some soldiers decided to stay in.
3. Minority Sunni Muslims have accepted radical political organisations such as IS due to their desperation and resentment of the Shi'ite Iraqi government.



Firstly, Jihad is literally translated to strive and struggle. It comes in two types:

1. Jihad for the self
2. Jihad for the Ummah (the Islamic community)

For example, a student can perform Jihad against an upcoming exam. A mother can strive and struggle to raise her children. A doctor can strive to carry out research in order to come up with a cure for a disease. And lastly, the most extreme form of Jihad is financing battle in order to 'spread Islam', or join the fight yourself.

The second type is very ambiguous due to the fact that 'joining the fight' may not be the best thing to do, especially in this day and age where every state is sovereign and has its own political system and is already established. Even more so when you have a radical and extremist group such as the Islamic State, forcing people to join them by the sword or otherwise killing them.

You are wrong about those 4 'unequivocal beliefs' that Muslims have. There are five, and they are called pillars, which include:

- The Shahadah: The declaration that there is no God but God, and that Mohammed was his messenger.
- Salat: Praying five times a day.
- Zakat: Giving 2.5% of your income to the needy.
- Sawm or Siyam: Fasting the Holy Month of Ramadan
- Hajj: Performing pilgrimage to Mecca once in your lifetime if able during the month of Thu al Hijja

Dear SalmanBH,

Thank you very much for your detailed and thoughtful post. 👍

Please accept my apology for my ignorance of the 5 pillars.
I am very interested in the Islamic view on life after death, and how similar it might (or might not) be to the Christian view. Any remarks you may care to make on this topic would gratefully appreciated.

 

[SalmanBH]

If

Dear SalmanBH,

Thank you very much for your detailed and thoughtful post. 👍

Please accept my apology for my ignorance of the 5 pillars.
I am very interested in the Islamic view on life after death, and how similar it might (or might not) be to the Christian view. Any remarks you may care to make on this topic would gratefully appreciated.

If you have any specific questions that you'd like me to answer, it would be preferable if you took it to PM since it's easier to talk without being carried away with someone else quoting our posts.

 

[Touring Mars]

the majority of them condone the actions of groups like ISIS. Indeed, majority of muslims in Iraq condone ISIS.

I think you meant condemn, not condone....

 

[Dennisch]

Look at these radical Islamists!

 

[SniperRed3]

Is it just me or are countries a very western thing. How come such tribal areas like africa and the middle east have become countries? As you can see it hasn't worked out

 

[Dennisch]

Is it just me or are countries a very western thing. How come such tribal areas like africa and the middle east have become countries? As you can see it hasn't worked out

White people drew those lines on the map.

 

[Scaff]

Is it just me or are countries a very western thing.

Pop quiz. When did China first exist as a country? Answer 221 BCE
When did Italy first exist as a country? Answer 1861

Now think very carefully before making sweeping generalizations.

How come such tribal areas like africa and the middle east have become countries?

The exact same way that European ones did, through war, colonization and the movement of people.

As you can see it hasn't worked out

I think a history refresher class might be a good idea. We did a bang up job of it not working out in 1914 and 1939, oh an the Ukraine right now, and the whole area around Bosnia in the 90's.

 

[SniperRed3]

I'm talking about the middle east generally and by western I mean every where except the middle east and Africa.
You know what I'm saying. It's tribal land and each tribe fights for their land sort of thing execpt when a couple of tribes get in one country and begin disputing over land and power.

 

[Scaff]

I'm talking about the middle east generally and by western I mean every where except the middle east and Africa.
You know what I'm saying. It's tribal land and each tribe fights for their land sort of thing execpt when a couple of tribes get in one country and begin disputing over land and power.

Which does nothing to change the second two points I made.

 

[doblocruiser]

Some news from the Dutch (Geert Wilders) and a few quotes he made.

(1) Official report - 73 % of the Turkish and Marokan population in the Netherlands finds that the ones that go to Syria to fight for the Jihad are heroes and are ones that should be admired.

(2)Remember 9-11, also then it was 73% of exact the same population that understood/respected this terrorist attack and didn't condemn it

(3)So we have not a few Muslims in the Netherlands that think that way but several 100.000

(4)Those don't condemn terrorist attacks and see "Jihad Go'ers" as heroes

(5) Koran gives a license to kill (the blood drips of those pages), it's a terrorist book that is seen as "the law" for Muslim population and it is the constitution for the Islamic State

(6) IS does exactly what Allah says (refers to several verses from the Koran)

(7) It's a bloodthirsty ideology.

(8) Islamic State finds itself in the early stages of developement here in the Netherlands.

(9) Politicians just looked away for over 10 years and still to this point politicians don't act or act to late.

(10) 2/3 of the Dutch don't think the Islam belongs within their Dutch culture.

(11) Start to make an official statement that the Islam is the problem. Close borders for immigrants from Islamic countries and if someone choses to fight he/she can. Let them take as many friends as possible with them.

(12) Take away nationality even if they have a Dutch one. Let them get a passport from IS.

(13) Once gone, they never will be able to get into the country again.

(14) The ones that support terrorism and threaten to overthrow our Dutch democracy can leave our country directly

(15) If you wave the IS flag in the Dutch streets , you are just asking to recieve a one way ticket.

(16) Enough is enough! It has been tolerated too long.

It was said during a political debate this morning. He is saying this for more then 10 years and politicians always looked away. Now they are starting to get it straight in their face.

I think we will see a dramatic change in politics the comming years because Geert Wilders is not the only one who thinks like that. You'll start to see this point of view in many other countries.

 

[Scaff]

Some news from the Dutch (Geert Wilders) and a few quotes he made.



It was said during a political debate this morning. He is saying this for more then 10 years and politicians always looked away. Now they are starting to get it straight in their face.

I think we will see a dramatic change in politics the comming years because Geert Wilders is not the only one who thinks like that. You'll start to see this point of view in many other countries.

Given that large parts of the above could be applied to a number of other religions (in particular the Abrehamic ones) I take it he is also calling for a similar approach to them as well?

 

[doblocruiser]

The political debate was about the Jihadists and Islam. No other religions were discussed and they talked about the problems Islam is causing within Dutch society. I can't give an answer on the other religions as it was not discussed.

 

[Scaff]

The political debate was about the Jihadists and Islam. No other religions were discussed and they talked about the problems Islam is causing within Dutch society. I can't give an answer on the other religions as it was not discussed.

Well you kind of missed the point on that didn't you.

OK Lets try this another way. How much of that did you actually fact check and if you did please provide the sources.