Islam - What's your view on it?

[Dennisch]

Given that large parts of the above could be applied to a number of other religions (in particular the Abrehamic ones) I take it he is also calling for a similar approach to them as well?

No. Geert is as much anti Islam as it can be. And very much Pro Israel btw.
He doesn't talk about any other religion, because Islam is now the hot topic, and in his eyes there are no good, or at least very few good Muslims.

But Doblocruiser has a point. I myself see a lot of people shifting their (political) views and the current situation with IS and the small possibility of attacks in Europe helps Geert gain plenty of souls.

 

[Scaff]

No. Geert is as much anti Islam as it can be. And very much Pro Israel btw.
He doesn't talk about any other religion, because Islam is now the hot topic, and in his eyes there are no good, or at least very few good Muslims.

My own digging on him had made that much clear (which is why I raised the point about other religions, as a number of those points could be made about all three Abrehamic faiths), I was more interested if Doblocruiser was simply taking it at face value or had bothered looking into how inaccurate quite a bit of that is, as how the rest is simply populist scare-mongering.

But Doblocruiser has a point. I myself see a lot of people shifting their (political) views and the current situation with IS and the small possibility of attacks in Europe helps Geert gain plenty of souls.

As you may know I'm not fan of religion, but this shift to scapegoating an entire demographic for the actions of a few serious concerns me.

 

[Dennisch]

Oh I completely agree with you about the shift. But luckily us Dutch are smart enough to realise that Geert is riding the populism train at the moment and most of his ideas are labelled as thoughts of an idiot.

 

[Dotini]

It is said 11 jetliners are missing from the blasted airport at Tripoli. IS has specifically threatened Europe as a target for attack. 9/11 is coming up next week. The UK has nudged up its terror alert level a notch, fwiw.

In the unlikely event some spectacular attack actually eventuates, you may witness a tsunami of hatred and vengeance.

 

[Scaff]

It is said 11 jetliners are missing from the blasted airport at Tripoli. IS has specifically threatened Europe as a target for attack. 9/11 is coming up next week. The UK has nudged up its terror alert level a notch, fwiw.

Do you have a source for the missing airliners? I only ask as this thread (and others) is starting to turn into refuges for the un-supported claim, and personally that drives me to distraction.

In the unlikely event some spectacular attack actually eventuates, you may witness a tsunami of hatred and vengeance.

I have a little more trust in the majority of my fellow humans, I don't however doubt that the actions of a moronic few would be ill conceived and counterproductive.

 

[Dotini]

Do you have a source for the missing airliners? I only ask as this thread (and others) is starting to turn into refuges for the un-supported claim, and personally that drives me to distraction.

http://metro.co.uk/2014/09/03/11-ai...oli-airport-ahead-of-911-anniversary-4855212/

 

[Dennisch]

Seeing those pictures and reading the article, it would take some massive stones to try and fly those planes.

Somebody has become very rich on selling high grade scrap aluminium.

 

[Scaff]

http://metro.co.uk/2014/09/03/11-ai...oli-airport-ahead-of-911-anniversary-4855212/

Many thanks, its likely that most are now scrap (as @Dennish mentioned) however its possible a few could be used in an attempt. However they are not the easiest of things to move around unnoticed, so I find it unlikely they would be used outside of the immediate region for an attack.

One thing to consider is that they would however prove very useful for terrorists to use to drill taking over a plane.

 

[Dotini]

I don't however doubt that the actions of a moronic few would be ill conceived and counterproductive.

This may be just what such an attack may be intended to provoke; reflexive vengeance attacks on the peaceful Muslims next door then provoking even more radicalization of all parties.

 

[Carbonox]

Why are ISIS constantly branded as a moronic few? They seem to be fighting for exactly what Islam stands for...

 

[Dotini]

Why are ISIS constantly branded as a moronic few? They seem to be fighting for exactly what Islam stands for...

In this context, "moronic few" is intended to refer to the yahoos, rednecks and bozos who would attempt to take it upon themselves to avenge a 9/11-style terrorist attack upon their hapless Muslim neighbors...

 

[doblocruiser]

@ Scaff Wilders is concerning Islam on the very cinical side. Links to those resources were not given, also the opposite claims did not show any resources. The truth is made of opinions as well. What do you want me to fact check? Every claim by one group or politician is contradicted with other théories and other "facts".

I haven't said they were the facts!

The point I was making is that there is a shift in the political system. Geert already said a few years ago to take away their passeports. Hé was called a racist and people , even politicians compared him with Hitler. Now we are a few years down the road and other politicians start to take over what he said years ago. This seems all of a sudden no problem.

I am no religious kind of guy, but what I see, hear and read is that Islam is almost always connected with violence and problems. Just look at the news for the last 10 years.

 

[Scaff]

@ Scaff Wilders is concerning Islam on the very cinical side. Links to those resources were not given, also the opposite claims did not show any resources. The truth is made of opinions as well. What do you want me to fact check? Every claim by one group or politician is contradicted with other théories and other "facts".

Actually facts have quite a good habit of being able to be found and if you don't find support for something that is claimed as a fact, then don't accept it as such.

So yes do check what people are saying as see if its true, if 73% of all those groups do support IS then the report it comes from should be easily provided. That its not been should raise massive red flags.

As for his quote from the Koran, would you like to see ones just as bloodthirsty from the bible? The ones in which every apostate must be murdered and the families made slaves? Or the one that allows you to kill a child should it dishonour parents? Are the one that calls for the stoning of rape victims? Its all in the Old Testament, and the reasons why that may sound familiar is because Islam and Christianity (and Judaism) all share a common root.

As such you should be very careful about accepting anything as fact without understanding if it is and why it is being used, critical thinking is a strength, not a weakness.

I haven't said they were the facts!

They were presented as such and you have in other threads treated opinion as if it were fact.

The point I was making is that there is a shift in the political system. Geert already said a few years ago to take away their passeports. Hé was called a racist and people , even politicians compared him with Hitler. Now we are a few years down the road and other politicians start to take over what he said years ago. This seems all of a sudden no problem.

For many its still a very big problem, as I have already outlined in this thread.

I am no religious kind of guy, but what I see, hear and read is that Islam is almost always connected with violence and problems. Just look at the news for the last 10 years.

Ah great so we can take a small percentage of any faith and use it to tarnish the rest. In which case Christianity gets it for the Irish troubles, Anders Breivik and the Lord's Resistance Army, the Sikhs get it for Khalistan Movement and Buddists get it for BBS, I can keep going.

Extremism exists in every religion, but that doesn't make anything close to all of the followers of that religion an extremist.

 

[Furinkazen]

Why are ISIS constantly branded as a moronic few? They seem to be fighting for exactly what Islam stands for...

Because they are not. And they are a moronic few.

"Kill all muslims who stand against us".
"Kill all who stand against us"

I take it you can actually differentiate between this group and the wider muslim population?

 

[Carbonox]

Because they are not. And they are a moronic few.

"Kill all muslims who stand against us".
"Kill all who stand against us"

I take it you can actually differentiate between this group and the wider muslim population?

Feels a lot more like a moronic many when you look at people waving IS flags in Western countries.

 

[Furinkazen]

Feels a lot more like a moronic many when you look at people waving IS flags in Western countries.

Sources / citation / visual evidence?

 

[Scaff]

Feels a lot more like a moronic many when you look at people waving IS flags in Western countries.

I have to confess I have seen more from the moronic far right waving flags and causing trouble (six) than I have from the moronic IS fans (zero).

I am of course discounting the claims of the press as to the scale as the reality in the towns I travel through doesn't seem to match the claims made in some (mainly right wing) press sources.

 

[Dennisch]

Sources / citation / visual evidence?

The Hague was full of them last month.

But waving IS flags is now forbidden here, so we probably won't see them again.

 

[Carbonox]

Sources / citation / visual evidence?

Got plenty.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dg...rotest-for-peace-by-threatening-to-kill-jews/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/27/isis-s-black-flags-are-flying-in-europe.html
http://www.newsweek.com/pro-isis-demonstrators-call-death-jews-hague-262064

Speaking of @Scaff's post, amusingly it's not just the supposed "far right" expressing support for Hitler's ideas.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/11/anti-semitic-muslim-protesters-chant-heil-hitler-in-london/

 

[Furinkazen]

Was not aware of the holland situation. Still a minority.

 

[Scaff]

The Hague was full of them last month.

But waving IS flags is now forbidden here, so we probably won't see them again.

A few hindered I gather; out of the 850,000 muslim population of Holland that would be a single digit percentage at most, a long way from the 73% claim made.

@Carnbonox - That would be about on par with those travelling to IS from Europe, they have little to no idea of what they are on about or even the supposed religious basis of it. Its quite telling that they have been purchasing 'Islam for Dummies' before they leave...

http://www.newstatesman.com/religio...m-dummies-amazon-tell-us-about-radicalisation

...which demonstrates they religious ignorance of many of them, they are quite literally too stupid to realize how stupid they are being.

 

[Dennisch]

I have no idea where the 73% comes from, but I find even a couple of hundred IS supporters in my country a couple of hundred too much.

Want to support them? Go wave your flag in the new caliphate.

 

[Scaff]

I have no idea where the 73% comes from, but I find even a couple of hundred IS supporters in my country a couple of hundred too much.

Want to support them? Go wave your flag in the new caliphate.

Personally I support freedom of speech, and as such as long as no laws are broken then they can say what they want.

After all it also makes it rather easy then for the both the community and law enforcement to know exactly who they are. Its also often the case that by allowing people to do this, it provokes others to come forward and highlight exactly why what they are saying is nonsense and counter it (a method that the UK has long had success with in regard to the far right).

 

[Carbonox]

Personally I support freedom of speech, and as such as long as no laws are broken then they can say what they want.

After all it also makes it rather easy then for the both the community and law enforcement to know exactly who they are. Its also often the case that by allowing people to do this, it provokes others to come forward and highlight exactly why what they are saying is nonsense and counter it (a method that the UK has long had success with in regard to the far right).

(Pardon the pun coming ahead) But the question is, is waving the Islamic State flag protected by freedom of speech? It does seem to encourage dumb people to commit violence.

 

[Dennisch]

Freedom of speech is one thing, but they break our laws with pretty much everything they stand for. Screaming for the jihad and death to the infidels to happen here is hate speech. That's why the police knuckled down on the protesters pretty hard.

They reject our way of living, yet they chose to stay here.

You can just wait for the faeces to hit the European fan if something isn't done about this.

And as I said before, situations like this give nutjobs like Geert, le Pen and their European counterparts the support they want. Nobody needs extremists in powerful positions. Left, right, religious. They're all nuts.

 

[Dotini]

(Pardon the pun coming ahead) But the question is, is waving the Islamic State flag protected by freedom of speech? It does seem to encourage dumb people to commit violence.

Waving the IS flag in the US would probably be considered unprotected hate speech, like waving a swastika or burning a cross on your lawn. Supposedly in Europe you can be arrested and imprisoned for denying the reality of the holocaust.

 

[Scaff]

Freedom of speech is one thing, but they break our laws with pretty much everything they stand for. Screaming for the jihad and death to the infidels to happen here is hate speech. That's why the police knuckled down on the protesters pretty hard.

They reject our way of living, yet they chose to stay here.

You can just wait for the faeces to hit the European fan if something isn't done about this.

And as I said before, situations like this give nutjobs like Geert, le Pen and their European counterparts the support they want. Nobody needs extremists in powerful positions. Left, right, religious. They're all nuts.

So they are free to exercise the right to free speech and then also gave the consequences of breaking the law while doing so. Seems the law worked perfectly well and also now knows exactly who they are.

 

[justin credible]

What's my view on Islam. My view is it is the same as every other religon used by most of it's believers as a way of life respectful and peaceful but ruined by extremists who use it as an excuse to go crazy.
I think Islam gets a bad press does anyone else?
And something to think about to people who have some kind of dislike of muslims. Each year in most countries of the world more babies are born to muslim than any other religon which according to maths means in about 30 years muslims will out number every other religous group by about 10000 to 1. Does this bother me? No not a jot as when I meet people in my walk of life I never even consider there religon. Anyone bothered by this fact or are you all like me and don't give a hoot what religon or even if there religous a person is?

 

[Dennisch]

So they are free to exercise the right to free speech and then also gave the consequences of breaking the law while doing so. Seems the law worked perfectly well and also now knows exactly who they are.

I can imagine that all of them are now under the spying eye of the government.
As they now should be.

You can say a lot about our government, but for some strange reason they have a good eye (ear?) to spot the trouble makers, especially when they gang up.

Might have to do something with the fact that you can report suspicious persons anonymously.

 

[Carbonox]

What's my view on Islam. My view is it is the same as every other religon used by most of it's believers as a way of life respectful and peaceful but ruined by extremists who use it as an excuse to go crazy.
I think Islam gets a bad press does anyone else?
And something to think about to people who have some kind of dislike of muslims. Each year in most countries of the world more babies are born to muslim than any other religon which according to maths means in about 30 years muslims will out number every other religous group by about 10000 to 1. Does this bother me? No not a jot as when I meet people in my walk of life I never even consider there religon. Anyone bothered by this fact or are you all like me and don't give a hoot what religon or even if there religous a person is?

I doubt they'd outnumber anyone but small sects with those numbers.

But personally, I'm bothered by the thought that some Western countries might have an Islamic majority at this rate before the turn of the century. I like to call it the "demographic disaster" because the former population and culture are effectively getting replaced with something that doesn't properly fit in Western societies. If it did, Islam wouldn't show up in negative light in European news all the time.

The statistical fact seems to be that about half the young (<- edited for truth) Moroccans in Netherlands have got in trouble with the law:

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2624/moroccan-crime-netherlands

And the scary part is that the growing number of these people could mean that power eventually goes to nutjobs that make Golden Dawn look like moderates.