Islam - What's your view on it?

[LeMansAid]

If Hitler said he supported the Volkswagen then it would still be a statement by a mad bigot - you'd be able to read in context that he wished to raise more money to perpetuate a Nazi agenda, however little context was apparent in his words on the day.

And the real problem both at the time and in retrospect is/was Hitler's beliefs. Shoehorning otherwise mundanely financial affairs in to a condemnable action only serves to confuse what the real enemy is/was. But that's not comparing apples to apples anyway.

Let's do this........ Mr. Politician says - "Muslims place our society at risk". Response - "You're a bigot". Later, Mr. Politician says - "Extremist Muslims place our society at risk". Response - "You're a bigot". Personally, I'd be suspicious that all he'd learnt in the interim was how to be more covert, but I wouldn't give the mindless response. Or maybe he was testing his detractors? With a steadfast "You're a bigot", they failed the test, and confirmed in his mind that people aren't judging what he actually says and does, but rather what they associate him with. What does that sound like? Anything like what bigots do?

If all someone wants is to be able to wear a badge that identifies themselves as being on a particular side, the mindless "You're a bigot" will do just fine. If however one wants to encourage actual progress, identifying what constitutes an unjustified bigoted attitude and what doesn't works much better. Hell, some people even choose to say nothing when there's nothing to say. What a novel concept.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Let's do this........ Mr. Politician says - "Muslims place our society at risk". Response - "You're a bigot". Later, Mr. Politician says - "Extremist Muslims place our society at risk". Response - "You're a bigot". Personally, I'd be suspicious that all he'd learnt in the interim was how to be more covert, but wouldn't give the mindless response. Or maybe he was testing his detractors? With a steadfast "You're a bigot", they failed the test, and confirmed in his mind that people aren't judging what he actually says and does, but rather what they associate him with. What does that sound like? Anything like what bigots do?

Accepted, but it hinges on his definition of Extremist Islaam. From his previous speaking and the party's manifesto it's my belief that they extend the extremist envelope a lot further than is rational.

 

[LeMansAid]

Accepted, but it hinges on his definition of Extremist Islaam. From his previous speaking and the party's manifesto it's my belief that they extend the extremist envelope a lot further than is rational.

When we don't deal with the contemporary and particularly with the actual, we head into murky waters though - and risk worsening a situation. Maybe he has genuinely tuned his focus? I don't know, but to assume he hasn't, and act on that assumption could risk undoing any progress that may have taken place.

I'd like to see some justification from our inciter. Specifically in relation to.....

By "radical", he means "all".

To be honest, I'd never even heard of the guy. All the more reason why I'd want some basis for such a claim. If there's nothing to defend against, it's just an unprovoked attack. and one cannot do that and still claim moral high ground.

I think that showing solidarity can be a wonderful and powerful thing. Even more when there's no petty pot shots being taken. To me, this whole thing smacks of "Look at me!! Look at me!! I've got the badge", rather than a meaningful show of solidarity. I really think we'd do well to pick the subtle (in appearance) but profound difference, and weed that sort of thing out.

 

[Sanji Himura]

When was the last time you heard of a Jew or Christian killing someone for working on the "sabbath"? Yet the "old testament" makes it quite plain that this is one of God's requirements.

Technically speaking, Jews didn't really kill anyone who worked on the Sabbath (as Christianity don't observe the Sabbath at all and worship on Sunday. The only exception to this is the Seventh-Day Adventists who do worship on Saturday, the Sabbath.) What they had was work and travel restrictions encoded in Messianic law that allows people to actually live and travel during the Sabbath. For example, in Messianic law, you are only allowed to travel 20 miles a day. On a regular Sabbath, that travel is limited to 15-16 miles. On High Sabbath (Sabbaths that are usually called outside of a regular sabbath due to feasts and other reasons. Jesus's crucifixion took place the day before a High Sabbath, that is why when he died, the Romans broke the legs of the two thieves crucified with him to make them die before the sun set [as under Jewish law, the day begins on each sunset, not sunrise, and the High Sabbath would have began with men on the execution block otherwise, something that is against Jewish law],) you are not usually permitted to travel and work.

 

[GBO Possum]

Technically speaking, Jews didn't really kill anyone who worked on the Sabbath (as Christianity don't observe the Sabbath at all and worship on Sunday. The only exception to this is the Seventh-Day Adventists who do worship on Saturday, the Sabbath.) What they had was work and travel restrictions encoded in Messianic law that allows people to actually live and travel during the Sabbath. For example, in Messianic law, you are only allowed to travel 20 miles a day. On a regular Sabbath, that travel is limited to 15-16 miles. On High Sabbath (Sabbaths that are usually called outside of a regular sabbath due to feasts and other reasons. Jesus's crucifixion took place the day before a High Sabbath, that is why when he died, the Romans broke the legs of the two thieves crucified with him to make them die before the sun set [as under Jewish law, the day begins on each sunset, not sunrise, and the High Sabbath would have began with men on the execution block otherwise, something that is against Jewish law],) you are not usually permitted to travel and work.

Thus you are confirming that both Jews and Christians have long ignored God's requirement as stated in Exodus 31:15.

In my opinion, this is a good thing, and an acceptance that the people who wrote "God's words" were from a different, more primitive time, and that they got it wrong. It's good because as soon as it's established that any one of "God's laws" can be ignored, then the rest of the rubbish can follow.

 

[Sanji Himura]

an acceptance that the people who wrote "God's words" were from a different, more primitive time, and that they got it wrong.

Actually the adverse is true. The reason why Christians worship on Sunday is because we give our "first fruits" unto the Lord (see Romans 8:23), and we believe that when Christ died, he fulfilled the Messianic law so that we are not bound by it (see Romans 3:23). The Jews, on the other hand, have refused Christ, and thus are bound by Messianic law to this day (again, see Romans 3:23).

 

[TenEightyOne]

Actually the adverse (Ten: Reverse?) is true. The reason why Christians worship on Sunday is because we give our "first fruits" unto the Lord (see Romans 8:23), and we believe that when Christ died, he fulfilled the Messianic law so that we are not bound by it (see Romans 3:23). The Jews, on the other hand, have refused Christ, and thus are bound by Messianic law to this day (again, see Romans 3:23).

Sabbath is a day of rest, it can be on Sunday or Saturday. In fact Romans tells us it can be on any day. Sabbath was observed on Saturday by Christ's followers (according to Paul) and became most commonly a Sunday in order to praise the holy, fiery lifting of Lord McJeebus.

If you wanted to have your sabbath on a Thursday then that's fine too. Your tithe is from the whole week so the day makes no difference.

 

[High-Test]

Technically speaking, Jews didn't really kill anyone who worked on the Sabbath (as Christianity don't observe the Sabbath at all and worship on Sunday. The only exception to this is the Seventh-Day Adventists who do worship on Saturday, the Sabbath.) What they had was work and travel restrictions encoded in Messianic law that allows people to actually live and travel during the Sabbath. For example, in Messianic law, you are only allowed to travel 20 miles a day. On a regular Sabbath, that travel is limited to 15-16 miles. On High Sabbath (Sabbaths that are usually called outside of a regular sabbath due to feasts and other reasons. Jesus's crucifixion took place the day before a High Sabbath, that is why when he died, the Romans broke the legs of the two thieves crucified with him to make them die before the sun set [as under Jewish law, the day begins on each sunset, not sunrise, and the High Sabbath would have began with men on the execution block otherwise, something that is against Jewish law],) you are not usually permitted to travel and work.

Why would the Romans care what the laws were of a bunch of pain-in-the-arse Jews, and what does this have to do with Islam? I mean, If the Jews offed Jesus, the symbol of Christianity would be a rock. Or ten.

I have a great many muslim friends, all of them I find to be lovely people. Islam, as I see it, is a way to enlightenment. It can be corrupted by extremism (ibn Taymiyya, ibn abd al Wahhab, Al-Banna (to a lesser extent) , Qutb) The Muslims I know here in Pittsburg, KS may all be foreign students, but they are upstanding individuals, even if they don't tip pizza drivers. :headbang: I see as little problem with Islam was I see with Christianity. It is a path to God, and a path to peace. When I meet a Saudi here, and they ask where I've been in the world, and I say all the places including Israel, their eyes become the size of saucers when Israel is mentioned. And they do not reject me, they intently ask more. I feel bad that they cannot visit the Haram-al-Sharif and the al-Aqsa. But beyond asking about Jerusalem and 'Isra'il', they ask me how the experience was. The only way I can relate to them my experience as a Jew is "My friend, it was my pilgrimage." They nod knowingly. We have drinks, talk a bit more, and then Karim or mohammed wants to ask out a dumb sorority girl.

We accomplish more together than we do apart. One of the greatest Torah scholars, Moshe ben-Maimon (Maimonides) was the vizier and doctor of Saladin. He wrote the guide to the perplexed in Arabic. It's incomprehensible to my feeble mind in English.

 

[DCP]

The war will end soon though. The peace treaty is near.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Why would the Romans care what the laws were of a bunch of pain-in-the-arse Jews, and what does this have to do with Islam?

To your second point, nothing. To your first... the Romans were actually quite good at local diplomacy, allowing the locals to preserve laws and customs was often okay if it kept the peace. Crucifixion itself was normally for "high" crimes, it may well be that Jesus was never actually crucified and that the legend simply claims he was in order to elevate his perceived status.

 

[Sanji Himura]

To your second point, nothing. To your first... the Romans were actually quite good at local diplomacy, allowing the locals to preserve laws and customs was often okay if it kept the peace. Crucifixion itself was normally for "high" crimes, it may well be that Jesus was never actually crucified and that the legend simply claims he was in order to elevate his perceived status.

Can you answer the charge that the Jews, when Christ was arrested, broke 18 laws when handling him, in particular, the law that forbids multiple punishments on a single crime? [Note: Christ was flogged first, something that should have stopped any crucifixion that did came later.]

 

[Shiftlockin]

OP
A sideways, head-tilted curious dog sort of view on this. Many Islamists seem rather quick to outwardly criticize non believers, infidels, but perhaps you could say it is the other way round, and we are sticking our noses where they don't belong? To each their own, until you RPG my house.

 

[DCP]

Thus you are confirming that both Jews and Christians have long ignored God's requirement as stated in Exodus 31:15.

In my opinion, this is a good thing, and an acceptance that the people who wrote "God's words" were from a different, more primitive time, and that they got it wrong. It's good because as soon as it's established that any one of "God's laws" can be ignored, then the rest of the rubbish can follow.

We don't ignore it, no.

Colossians 2:16
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

 

[GBO Possum]

We don't ignore it, no.

Colossians 2:16
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

So when God's Word contradicts God's Word, who decides which is the governing law? You?

 

[DCP]

So when God's Word contradicts God's Word, who decides which is the governing law? You?

It doesn't contradict at all. We are not under the sacrificial law. We are under Grace. Without Christ, we would still be under the law of the OT. That's the very reason for the old covenant, and the new covenant.
We have all been delivered from the OT law, because of Christ.

The law will tell you to love your neighbor, but the Holy Spirit will show you how to.

 

[Carlos]

OP
A sideways, head-tilted curious dog sort of view on this. Many Islamists seem rather quick to outwardly criticize non believers, infidels, but perhaps you could say it is the other way round, and we are sticking our noses where they don't belong? To each their own, until you RPG my house.

I think about this a lot. But what happens when we turn blind eye? That is what got us IS/ISIS/ISIL..

 

[Shiftlockin]

Indeed, the topic can be too drastically different to our lifestyle for the western mind to comprehend properly too, also people are not really what they say they are either, those offending catholic priests etc. Modern religious institutions of any kind are abused for power/money and hard to trust in any case. I feel sorry for kind and genuine Islamic elders given a bad reputation.

 

[Carlos]

Indeed, the topic can be too drastically different to our lifestyle for the western mind to comprehend properly too, also people are not really what they say they are either, those offending catholic priests etc. Modern religious institutions of any kind are abused for power/money and hard to trust in any case. I feel sorry for kind and genuine Islamic elders given a bad reputation.

Yes that's right. I don't think we could fully understand 'those' people looking at our way of life, it's so different.. Our nice little planet has gotten too small for us.. Though I know a lot of Muslims and really, don't notice a thing that they are.. They hate IS but this is not what you read in the media. Well actually I think we will never read such things since it's too boring for the mainstream. And it's a bit frustrating too, since you read so much negativity and then I come to work and right now next to me is sitting a nice Muslim girl wearing western clothes, speaking better our language than her natives, you get the idea.. It feels stupid to say 'those crazy Muslims' because then I feel bad for her and the other Muslim friends I have.

We shouldn't accept IS as a Muslim thing.

 

[Shiftlockin]

I too know a lot of nice young Muslims here in New Zealand. Different to me or you? Hardly. They are perhaps more family oriented, more critical thinking and disappear twice a day but that's it. Can't say I have ever known an extremist though. Are they true hardcore believers until death which they embrace, similar to modern day Bushido, or poor brainwashed weak-willed individuals? I see you are from the Netherlands, I find that really cool, my family is from Oldenzaal

 

[Carlos]

I too know a lot of nice young Muslims here in New Zealand. Different to me or you? Hardly. They are perhaps more family oriented, more critical thinking and disappear twice a day but that's it. Can't say I have ever known an extremist though. Are they true hardcore believers until death which they embrace, similar to modern day Bushido, or poor brainwashed weak-willed individuals? I see you are from the Netherlands, I find that really cool, my family is from Oldenzaal

Oh nice! Oldenzaal is on the other side of the country for me, a whopping 2 hour drive I guess that is not a lot seeing where you live.. Did your family go because of the war? My dad is born in Sydney, our family went away and came back after.

More family oriented is exactly what they are different from us. 👍 I really respect that, how they seem to never give up on family with help. Seeing how I am with family and how my Muslim friends are really makes me selfish I guess.

I don't really know an extremist, but I do meet some weird guys now and then. Few weeks ago I was walking through the city at around 11pm and I walked by a guy checking out two girls who were walking the other way. I was also checking and when we saw each other checking the same girls we laughed and began to talk. He started walking with me in the direction I went and started asking if I was known with the USA vs Muslim situation. He continued saying how the USA is pure evil. He even said how his dad learned him how to quickly chop someones head off, at what position, so the guy would be dead instantly and spares you the trouble of having to really cut... I reacted a bit surprised, told him I really didn't need to know since I wouldn't be doing those things. He laughed it off. We chit chatted a bit and I asked him what he was doing in his daily life. The guy said he just got out of jail because he was sentenced for attempted murder. I reacted a bit shocked because he was only 19 or 20 and we quickly moved to a more general topic. We even ended smoking a cigarette and wishing each other much luck in our life.

 

[GBO Possum]

It doesn't contradict at all. We are not under the sacrificial law. We are under Grace. Without Christ, we would still be under the law of the OT. That's the very reason for the old covenant, and the new covenant.
We have all been delivered from the OT law, because of Christ.

The law will tell you to love your neighbor, but the Holy Spirit will show you how to.

So the Old Testament is to be discarded.

Good. It's a start!

But I do not understand why Bibles are still including the OT.

 

[BobK]

So the Old Testament is to be discarded.

Good. It's a start!

But I do not understand why Bibles are still including the OT.

As I understand it, it's for historical context. This way we can still be assured that the world was created around 6 pm on 22 October 4004 BC, for instance.

It would relieve a lot of confusion if the various Christian organizations were to go through the OT and highlight which parts of the Law are no longer in effect, and which still are.

Of course, they'd all have to agree on each item.

 

[Swift]

But I do not understand why Bibles are still including the OT.

Christianity has gone through a reformation. Islam, for many in the religion, has not.

 

[GBO Possum]

As I understand it, it's for historical context. This way we can still be assured that the world was created around 6 pm on 22 October 4004 BC, for instance.

It would relieve a lot of confusion if the various Christian organizations were to go through the OT and highlight which parts of the Law are no longer in effect, and which still are.

Of course, they'd all have to agree on each item.

So if parts of the Old Testament are still valid, but parts are not, then who decides which to keep and which to discard?

I thought the whole thing was the word of God. Am I wrong?

Seems to me that Jesus might have said parts of the OT were obsolete, but didn't make it clear as to which parts.

On the other hand, The Prophet got over that issue by claiming that none of his writings could ever be changed. If the writers if the OT had made that claim, then Jesus would have been locked out of making revisions. Of course, he forgot to make the same claim, so any of us can revise his words. But if you do, then protect yourself with the Prophet trick!

 

[DCP]

So the Old Testament is to be discarded.

Good. It's a start!

But I do not understand why Bibles are still including the OT.

If not for the OT, then the NT cannot be verified and trusted.
Jesus fulfilled hundreds of OT prophecies. This is how we know who the Suffering Messiah is, else any and everyone will want to come and try to fit this description. Jesus is the central Figure of the entire Bible. He appears in every book.

When you read the NT, and come across a prophecy fulfillment, it will give you the OT verse as a reference.
The OT reveals the NT, and the NT conceals the OT.

PS: in your response post 2484, which prophet are you referring to?

 

[Sanji Himura]

14 years nearly to the day, a "Act of God" happened in Mecca. Strong winds blew over a crane which crashed on Islam's holiest site, the Grand Mosque. 65 are dead and upwards of 154 are injured through the accident. [Editor's Note: Some reports are claiming that the crane that crashed into the mosque is owned by a firm that is tied to the Bin Laden family.]

http://conservativetribune.com/musl...um=TheFederalistPapers&utm_content=2015-09-12

 

[FoRiZon]

I dont care who owned the crane or on what intention or even what religious thing theyve been doing. The accident happened and Saudi has been critisized for the negligence.

RIP for those who killed.

 

[Smurfybug]

First there was a regular storm and then visibility dropped to 0 once the Dust Storm came. My aunt told me that when they went for Umrah last year that the crane was still there at the building.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

14 years nearly to the day, a "Act of God" happened in Mecca.

So the innocent masses pay for the sins of the few, and those who were wronged in the first place may consider it just?

Sounds just like the rhetoric used to justify the September 11 attacks.

 

[High-Test]

First there was a regular storm and then visibility dropped to 0 once the Dust Storm came. My aunt told me that when they went for Umrah last year that the crane was still there at the building.

Thank God it didn't happen during peak traffic.