Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[RYAN]

I think a ton of Americans can't see the bigger picture. Hell, the president isn't even indicating he can see the bigger picture (whether he can or not is another story). Israel is awful and doing awful, awful things to innocent Palestinians while creating an apartheid state and killing people indiscriminately. Hamas is awful and doing awful, awful things like killing, torturing, and kidnapping innocent Israelis.

Chances are that a decent number of people in both countries just want to coexist and go on about their business, raise their families, and just live their lives. But now they're stuck in the middle of a bloody war where the end game is thousands of dead people, ruined infrastructure, and no closer to peace. Pretty much as this point, anyone who's looking at the situation reasonably should be anti-government/heads-of-state and pro-civilians.

Totally agree. Palestinians will always be thought worse off because of Hamas and their stated aim of the eradication of the Israeli state. I'm sure that a large amount of Palestinians would be happy just to live a decent life. At the end of the day the losers are the innocents and civilians irrespective of where they are from. Sadly both sides leadership seem committed to handling this in the most destructive and painful way possible.

The longer I go through my life, The belief my family instilled in me that religion is more trouble than it is worth is reinforced over and over again. I have no issue with people having their own beliefs no matter what that is, If that helps them through life all well and good. Sadly the issue where any religion is involved is that there will be extremist and radical ideologies that will end up in hatred, suffering and death time and time again.

Like any state that is attacked, Israel has a right to defend itself. I just wish it could be done with some humility and concern for innocents. Ofcourse I understand the Hamas habit of using Civilian population centres as cover complicates things immensely.

Then I think what if one of my friends of family was killed at that Music festival and paraded through the streets of Gaza... Would I think the same?

It's just such an impossible mess and has been for so long. No one is right and no one is wrong, Just be sure that there will be no winners in all this. Just losers.

 

[Imari]

Like any state that is attacked, Israel has a right to defend itself.

I think this gets complicated when there's a history of provocation from both sides leading back so far that it's impossible to say who's defending themselves from who. "Attacking" an aggressor can be a valid defensive tactic if it's the most effective way to get them to stop attacking you.

It gets really complicated when the provocation from Palestine is mostly overtly military acts like rockets and bombings, while the Israeli provocations are mostly less noticeable things like resettlements and blockades to deny access to resources necessary to survive. Long term, these things are at least as deadly as rockets and bombs.

I think both sides long ago lost any right to claim that they're just defending themselves. That implies a level of innocence and justification for the violence that simply isn't there. Israel and Palestine both have the right to defend themselves, and they both have to recognise that they have in many ways made sure that their opponents had no choice but to respond with violence.

 

[inCloud]

target a hospital

Which is well known HAMAS hideout for years

I've lived next door to an orchard and I've never seen anyone pick so many cherries.

Like, you could always add something noticeable to discussion.

Israel captured Palestine in defensive war. In similar conditions Germans were deported from Sudetenland and Königsberg. Israel didn't deport locals. Instead, it give them right of being part of Israeli nation(with Arabic being one of official languages) or live in West Bank or Gaza. Somehow 2 millions of Israeli Arabs peacefully live in Israel. We can clearly see that Israel doesn't have any problems with peaceful Muslims or Arabs. Israel always was the side that looking for compromises.

 

[Dennisch]

National security adviser Jake Sullivan has stated that the south of Gaza has access to water again.

 

[unit-one]

Israel versus Hamas. The main thing for this hour:

Since the beginning of the conflict, 2,670 residents of the Gaza Strip have died, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health. According to the latest data, more than 1,400 people have died in Israel;

Hamas currently holds 155 people hostage, Haaretz writes, citing IDF spokesman Daniel Hagar;

Israeli Energy Minister Israel Kahn announced the resumption of water supplies to the south of the Gaza Strip. At the same time, the Israeli authorities are not considering restoring power supplies and fuel supplies;

The Israel Defense Forces categorically deny any involvement in the attack on the Salah al-Din Highway in the Gaza Strip, which killed dozens of refugees;

The conflict could escalate if Israel does not stop attacks on the Gaza Strip, the Iranian Foreign Ministry said. “Tomorrow will be too late,” warned the head of the department, Hossein Amir Abdollahian;

Tehran will not interfere in the conflict between Israel and the Hamas group if Israel does not attack Iranian territory, Iran's mission to the UN said;

It is possible that US troops could be deployed to Gaza to free American hostages, White House spokesman John Kirby said;

Hamas is considering releasing civilian hostages if Israel stops shelling the Gaza Strip, the Financial Times reports;

UN peacekeepers reported a missile hit their headquarters in Lebanon. There were no casualties. It is now being determined whose missile it was—Israeli or Hezbollah, the Wall Street Journal reports;

Israel will wage a powerful and deadly war in the Gaza Strip that will change the situation forever, said the country's Defense Minister Yoav Galant. According to him, the operation will not end until all Hamas militants are destroyed;

About two-thirds of the residents of the Israeli border town of Sderot were evacuated, the Times of Israel reported. Most of the remaining citizens will leave the city by the end of the day, Deputy Mayor Elad Kalimi told the publication;

The Pope called for the creation of humanitarian corridors in the Gaza Strip. According to the Pontiff, humanitarian laws must be respected in this territory;

EU leaders adopted a joint statement on the situation in the Middle East - they condemned the actions of Hamas, called for the release of the hostages, confirmed Israel's right to defense, but pointed out the need to comply with international law;

The United States plans to send more than $2 billion in military assistance to Israel and Ukraine, Biden's national security adviser Jake Sullivan said;

Biden said the US can support Ukraine and Israel at the same time.

Israel will only begin “significant military operations” in the Gaza Strip when it sees that civilians have left the areas, IDF spokesman Jonathan Conricus told CNN;

Israel delayed ground operations in the Gaza Strip due to bad weather, which could limit the capabilities of aircraft and drone operators, The New York Times reported, citing sources. The operation was scheduled to begin this weekend;

Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip went “beyond the scope of self-defense”; the Israeli government must “stop collectively punishing Gazans,” Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said;

Iran threatened Israel with intervention if it launched a ground operation - the warning was transmitted through the UN Special Coordinator, Axios reported, citing sources;

The head of the strategic affairs department of the Israeli Foreign Ministry, Joshua Zarka, accused Iran of trying to place weapons in Syria or send them through the country in response to Israeli operations in the Gaza Strip;

Israel's demand for the evacuation of hospitals from the northern Gaza Strip is tantamount to a death sentence for the sick and wounded, WHO says. The organization fears this will worsen the humanitarian catastrophe in the country;

The American aircraft carrier Dwight Eisenhower is heading to the eastern Mediterranean - where the aircraft carrier Gerald Ford is already located, the Pentagon said;

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas called Biden and declared a complete rejection of the idea of displacing the residents of the Gaza Strip from their land, the Palestinian leadership said in a statement;

Abbas also emphasized his rejection of the practice of killing and ill-treatment of civilians on both sides of the conflict and called for the release of civilians taken hostage;

During the night, the Israeli army attacked more than a hundred Hamas military targets, including launch sites, anti-tank and observation posts, as well as the group's headquarters and military complexes, the IDF press service said;

Also, the IDF press service reported the liquidation of the commander of Hamas forces in Khan Yunis, Billal al-Kedra, who, according to the Israeli side, is responsible for the killing of civilians in Kibbutz Nirim;

 

[dylansan]

I'm getting really sick of the phrase "human shield" at this point.

It seems to be a euphemism for "hostage that is acceptable to kill."

 

[RYAN]

I think this gets complicated when there's a history of provocation from both sides leading back so far that it's impossible to say who's defending themselves from who. "Attacking" an aggressor can be a valid defensive tactic if it's the most effective way to get them to stop attacking you.

It gets really complicated when the provocation from Palestine is mostly overtly military acts like rockets and bombings, while the Israeli provocations are mostly less noticeable things like resettlements and blockades to deny access to resources necessary to survive. Long term, these things are at least as deadly as rockets and bombs.

I think both sides long ago lost any right to claim that they're just defending themselves. That implies a level of innocence and justification for the violence that simply isn't there. Israel and Palestine both have the right to defend themselves, and they both have to recognise that they have in many ways made sure that their opponents had no choice but to respond with violence.

I agree with what you say completely. Ofcourse I do agree that Palestinians (Not Hamas) have as much right to defend themselves, I just think it goes without saying that last weeks horrific actions from Hamas is not an acceptable way of achieving anything and I understand Israel's eagerness to respond. That's what I was referring to with "Israel has the right to defend itself" I was just referring to this particular single event.

Like I made clear in my original post though, I see both sides equally as irresponsible and intolerant as each other and the only people I support are the innocents wherever they are.

 

[Savolainen83]

From the pen of Finnish cartoonist, Pertti Jarla.

Jarla - 14.10.2023 - Sarjakuvat | HS.fi

Lue sarjakuva Jarla

www.hs.fi

 

[Imari]

Like, you could always add something noticeable to discussion.

The irony is palpable when I've been pointing out at length your omissions with regards to weapons and history, yet when I take a jab at your obvious cherry picking you claim that I'm not adding anything to the discussion?

Righto. Absolutely. You got me there.

Israel captured Palestine in defensive war.

You can't capture another country defensively. I mean, maybe you can in Russia, but for the rest of us if you're capturing someone else's territory then that's kind of by definition an aggressive action.

Israel didn't deport locals. Instead, it give them right of being part of Israeli nation(with Arabic being one of official languages) or live in West Bank or Gaza.

Right. Israel declared that it was taking their land, and it would be gracious enough to allow them to continue to live there. Very big of them. I can't see why anyone would be upset about that.

We can clearly see that Israel doesn't have any problems with peaceful Muslims or Arabs. Israel always was the side that looking for compromises.

Because it's not about a clash of religions and it never has been other than in the sense that for some of the countries in the region politics and religion are basically the same thing.

For some reason you and other people keep trying to turn this into Judaism vs. Islam. It's not. It's about Israel occupying land with little regard for the people already living there. The situation was always going to be ****ed because of the colonialist way in which it was set up. But the current prime minister of Israel is on record with some pretty uncompromising views of what an agreement might look like:

As part of his proposal, Netanyahu demanded the full demilitarization of the proposed state, with no army, rockets, missiles, or control of its airspace, and said that Jerusalem would be undivided Israeli territory. He stated that the Palestinians should recognize Israel as the Jewish national state with an undivided Jerusalem. He rejected a right of return for Palestinian refugees, saying, "any demand for resettling Palestinian refugees within Israel undermines Israel's continued existence as the state of the Jewish people." He also stated that a complete stop to settlement building in the West Bank, as required by the 2003 Road Map peace proposal, was not possible and the expansions will be limited based on the "natural growth" of the population, including immigration, with no new territories taken in.

So don't tell me that Israel is looking for compromises. Israel is looking to get as much out of this as they can. Which is understandable, every government is supposed to be looking out for their own people first and foremost. But I'm not going to cheer for them when what they want comes at the expense of another group of people - a group of people who have as much right to live there as anyone else and who the Israelis have made sure are ostracised and isolated in a way that you'd think that they would be particularly sensitive to.

And to be fair, a lot of Jewish people are pretty sensitive to that and it's part of why there isn't necessarily universal support for Israeli state policy even amongst Jews.

 

[McLaren]

National security adviser Jake Sullivan has stated that the south of Gaza has access to water again.

I read it may not do much good if electricity isn't also restored, but I haven't seen any reports personally that touch on that, only that Israel changed direction on the water after US influence.

 

[inCloud]

You can't capture another country defensively.

Allies actions against Nazis were aggression? What?

For some reason you and other people keep trying to turn this into Judaism vs. Islam

Its not Judaism vs Islam , its radical Islamism and ultra nationalism of Arabs vs Jews. Problem here are almost the same as with Russia/Russian - in English it has double meaning. Ethnicity and religion. Country and state, ethnic group and citizenship. When I say Jew , I don't mean Judaism believer.

someone else's territory

First question is, whose territory Israel occupied? Second, did Germans upset about Sudetenland and Kaliningrad?

Because it's not about a clash of religions and it never has been

Did I say otherwise? Its MatskiMonk claim about horrible Judaism propaganda in Israel. Its Arabic nationalism vs Jewish nationalism. Religious fanatics weren't big thing before HAMAS.

In fairness to both sides, if you've chosen to follow Islam or Judaism, you've been brain-washed at some point.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Its MatskiMonk claim about horrible Judaism propaganda in Israel

My claim was simply that if you've chosen to follow Islam, or Judaism (or Christianity, or pretty much any other religion), you have been brain-washed. Choosing to believe in something and accept it as a way of life, even though it cannot be proven to exist, because someone else has repeatedly told you of its existence, perhaps threatened you with divine consequences, drummed routines in to you, perhaps gotten you financially invested, pretty much is brainwashing.

 

[Milouse]

For counterpoints, not as summary of my position (I deplore Israel's lack of humanitarian considerations in Gaza):

1.
With 1400 dead and 199 hostage for a population of 9,3 millions, that terrorist attack would be equal to 49,600 dead in the USA, with 7,000 hostage held. Also, 500 k Israelis are mobilized (not all on the frontline), so 17,7 Millions at the scale of USA. The aftermath of this attack has consequences for everyone there. Israeli TV referrers today as the 10th day of war.

2.
Here in France, in the receiving side of those bombs, I never heard anyone blaming bombing, let alone calling it genocide.

3. From a global perspective, moral positions must also be taken into account. (Since it's Sam Harris, this 14mn podcast can be heard at x1.5 speed if in a hurry)

 

[inCloud]

Here in France, in the receiving side of those bombs, I never heard anyone blaming bombing, let alone calling it genocide.

There are discussion about was excessive bombing of occupied or controlled by Axis forces cities a good thing or its warcrime.

My claim was simply that if you've chosen to follow Islam, or Judaism (or Christianity, or pretty much any other religion), you have been brain-washed.

Out of context its ok position, but in context its highly offensive.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Here in France, in the receiving side of those bombs, I never heard anyone blaming bombing, let alone calling it genocide.

Not trying to downplay any of the bombing campaigns of WW2, but the term Genocide didn't exist at the point they were happening, and I would suggest it's clear the Allies intention was not to eradicate France or the French people. As an example, that article mentions St. Nazaire as one of the worst instances, this was likely due to the importance of the harbour there to the Germans, rather than simply an opportunity to kill lots of French people. I don't know if area bombing campaigns (and nuclear strikes) by allied and axis powers against civilian populations could or should be considered as genocide, or simply horrific acts of war that were seemingly justifiable at the time.

In the context of what Hitler was trying to do to the Jewish people, and the term Genocide being defined in order to prosecute war crimes in the act of doing so, I wouldn't say the bombing of occupied France was the same thing... so people are probably right not to be calling it genocide. I would suggest that perpetrators of violence against Israel and Palestine, by the other, may well be happy to see the total eradication of their enemies.

 

[Milouse]

I would suggest that perpetrators of violence against Israel and Palestine, by the other, may well be happy to see the total eradication of their enemies.

For one side, enemy is "Jews", for the other, "those who want to kill us all". Despite those voicing for the path of a genocide being more and more prominent in Israel, there's nothing in the country history showing intentionality of eradication of Palestinians. Israel political power has gone from left to far right over decades, probably in reaction to its neighbors. The collateral killing of civilians, in itself, is not an argument to label it genocide (hence my example from WWII where even the victim side didn't call it genocide).

 

[Touring Mars]

Israel (and many others besides) are faced with combatting those who have zero regard for human dignity and international law, while remaining confined by the rules of war that the enemy wantonly and very deliberately disregard.

I think Israel will step back from outright obliteration of Northern Gaza and take on Hamas on terms that are (just about) acceptable to the international community, but frankly there's no way for Israel to properly tackle Hamas (who are fully prepared to use illegal and immoral means to deter a counteroffensive) without the Gazan population being heavily impacted.

-

As an aside: I would not be surprised if China (with Russian encouragement) start pushing towards invading Taiwan in the coming months. With Europe and the US tied up in the twin conflicts of Ukraine and Israel, China might not have a better moment for some time to act. This might be verging on tin foil hattery, but I reckon Russia, China, Iran and North Korea - all of whom Russia has been in high level contact with recently - are coordinating a large-scale overthrow of the current global balance of power, such that the US and western forces will not be able to deal with all of these theatres of war opening simultaneously.

 

[inCloud]

This might be verging on tin foil hattery

Most likely it is. I am not even sure that Iran was ready for this, Hezbollah is too calm. Yet, I wouldn't be too surprised if escalation in Asia happen.

 

[SestoScudo]

I hope the Palestinians can liberate their lands from the zionists.

 

[unit-one]

...a large-scale overthrow of the current global balance of power...

Well, putin and his warmongers were saying, since the start of their "special military operation", that they created or want to create a new world order, a multipolar world.

 

[Imari]

Allies actions against Nazis were aggression? What?

Capturing and dividing Germany amongst the Allies was an aggressive action, yes.

First question is, whose territory Israel occupied?

From your "abbreviated history of Israel and Palestine":

1947 - Israel was founded according to UN plan, something that could be called Palestine also.
1948 - Arab League annexing Palestine and declare war to Israel. Israel beat them and annex most of Palestine to himself, Gaza and West Bank still under Transjordan and Egypt.
1967 - Six day war - another aggression from Arab states, another lose. Israel occupied Gaza and West Bank as result.
In 1993 Israel provide PLO control under West Bank and Gaza as part of Oslo Accords. Since 2005 Israel doesn't have any control under Gaza, but supplying it with water and electricity. Gaza supplying terror and rockets instead.

You know very well whose territory Israel occupied, so don't play dumb. Most of the world considers Israel to be an occupying force in violation of international law.

Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The collateral killing of civilians, in itself, is not an argument to label it genocide (hence my example from WWII where even the victim side didn't call it genocide).

The intentional collateral killing of civilians starts to get close to the meaning of genocide though. At that point you're just letting people who belong to a certain group die by your own hand for no reasonable military purpose.

As an aside: I would not be surprised if China (with Russian encouragement) start pushing towards invading Taiwan in the coming months. With Europe and the US tied up in the twin conflicts of Ukraine and Israel, China might not have a better moment for some time to act. This might be verging on tin foil hattery, but I reckon Russia, China, Iran and North Korea - all of whom Russia has been in high level contact with recently - are coordinating a large-scale overthrow of the current global balance of power, such that the US and western forces will not be able to deal with all of these theatres of war opening simultaneously.

Probably. India/Pakistan is another one that might kick off.

They might be coordinating, but it would be just as easily explained by their military commanders seeing opportunity and exploiting it. Intelligent and rational actors could be seen to be acting in unison where actually they're all just responding individually to the same external events. I don't doubt that discussions have been had, especially with Russia. Russia is in a tight spot at the moment and could use some allies - I'd be shocked if people like China and Iran didn't see that as an opportunity for themselves, even if they didn't want to get tied down into a formal alliance with Russia.

That said, I'm not sure China is as dumb as Russia. I hope they're not. They saw how the "invasion" of Ukraine went, occupying and pacifying Taiwan without turning it into a wasteland is going to be very, very difficult. If the US parks a couple of carrier groups near Taiwan then China is going to find it extremely hard going. And on paper the US has enough military force to make a good showing in Israel, Taiwan and Ukraine at the same time if they had to even before the rest of NATO joins in.

I think if China just quietly sits back and lets everyone else fight it out they have a good chance of doing very, very well for themselves. Militarily they're not at the level of the US and they won't be for a while, so it seems like they'd be silly to throw away a very strong diplomatic and economic position for the sake of Taiwan. If a world war kicks off they can take it whenever they want, if you're China I think it's to your advantage to wait for WW3 to actually start before you make your move.

 

[MatskiMonk]

For one side, enemy is "Jews", for the other, "those who want to kill us all". Despite those voicing for the path of a genocide being more and more prominent in Israel, there's nothing in the country history showing intentionality of eradication of Palestinians. Israel political power has gone from left to far right over decades, probably in reaction to its neighbors.

This is leaning to the suggestion that it's all Palestinians, but only the Israeli government, which I don't really buy - at least not enough to justify for the systematic obliteration of innocent civilians.

 

[TheCracker]

As an aside: I would not be surprised if China (with Russian encouragement) start pushing towards invading Taiwan in the coming months. With Europe and the US tied up in the twin conflicts of Ukraine and Israel, China might not have a better moment for some time to act. This might be verging on tin foil hattery, but I reckon Russia, China, Iran and North Korea - all of whom Russia has been in high level contact with recently - are coordinating a large-scale overthrow of the current global balance of power, such that the US and western forces will not be able to deal with all of these theatres of war opening simultaneously.

Seeds have also been sowed to cause internal conflict within the US and Europe with the rise in far right idealism which has with little doubt been, indirectly, pushed and funded by Russia over the last decade. Playing the long game is very Putinesq.

 

[Milouse]

The intentional collateral killing of civilians starts to get close to the meaning of genocide though. At that point you're just letting people who belong to a certain group die by your own hand for no reasonable military purpose.

They won't invite non-Palestinians to the area just to avoid the label.

This is leaning to the suggestion that it's all Palestinians, but only the Israeli government, which I don't really buy - at least not enough to justify for the systematic obliteration of innocent civilians.

1. Not Palestinians, Hamas.
2. Israel has legitimate targets in Gaza. Those targets are both active (hold hostages and still fires rockets every day) and shield behind civilians. I hear/read a lot about what Israel shouldn't do, but not about what it should. Condemning the deaths of innocent people certainly gives a good conscience, it does not resolve the situation.

 

[Joey D]

I hear/read a lot about what Israel shouldn't do, but not about what it should.

Israel has some of the best special forces in the world coupled with some of the best intelligence sources in world. Instead of indiscriminately leveling neighbourhoods, it probably should rely more on its special forces to go in and neutralize targets.

Israel could also help open corridors for civilians to leave Palestine. Even if they were only successful a very limited level, it would at least show that they are doing what they can to minimize civilian causalities. Not stoping the power and water to Gaza would also be another thing for them to do. I understand that water and power and going again, but for how long remains to be seen.

 

[opelgt1969]

Just my thoughts here but the USA should stop all funding to Israel and as Israel has said they are (God's people) let their God solve their problems. The USA should stop playing their own version of God/Devil. Just like when we supplied arms to both Iran and Iraq to fight each other.

 

[Milouse]

Israel could also help open corridors for civilians to leave Palestine

None of the Arab states want them. Egypt reacted by consolidating the frontier.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Israel (and many others besides) are faced with combatting those who have zero regard for human dignity and international law, while remaining confined by the rules of war that the enemy wantonly and very deliberately disregard.

I think Israel will step back from outright obliteration of Northern Gaza and take on Hamas on terms that are (just about) acceptable to the international community, but frankly there's no way for Israel to properly tackle Hamas (who are fully prepared to use illegal and immoral means to deter a counteroffensive) without the Gazan population being heavily impacted.

-

As an aside: I would not be surprised if China (with Russian encouragement) start pushing towards invading Taiwan in the coming months. With Europe and the US tied up in the twin conflicts of Ukraine and Israel, China might not have a better moment for some time to act. This might be verging on tin foil hattery, but I reckon Russia, China, Iran and North Korea - all of whom Russia has been in high level contact with recently - are coordinating a large-scale overthrow of the current global balance of power, such that the US and western forces will not be able to deal with all of these theatres of war opening simultaneously.

They could try, but Europe can handle Russia, the US + pacific allies (and probably India, begrudgingly) can handle China, and Israel could probably handle the middle east*, depending on how Turkey aligns (I'd guess not against NATO).

*I sincerely doubt that Iran could mobilize a useful army (beyond Sepah which isn't that big and has its hands full enough with their own citizens) with how unsettled their domestic situation is (and how they would even get soldiers to a conflict zone is a serious question as others in this thread have noted), and without Iran the middle east is the picture of conflicting interests. Saudi Arabia would be the second most powerful, and they are too pragmatic to try anything idealistic from a state perspective - they need to sell oil to the west. It also strains belief to imagine Saudi Arabia and Iran on the same side in a war, I would sooner believe Saudi Arabia and Israel on the same team.

Iran could so easily flip to supporting the west, or in the very least stop being antagonistic to the west, just like it did prior to 1979. I hope it does soon.

 

[MIE1992]

My claim was simply that if you've chosen to follow Islam, or Judaism (or Christianity, or pretty much any other religion), you have been brain-washed. Choosing to believe in something and accept it as a way of life, even though it cannot be proven to exist, because someone else has repeatedly told you of its existence, perhaps threatened you with divine consequences, drummed routines in to you, perhaps gotten you financially invested, pretty much is brainwashing.

As someone who identifies with being Jewish, I sorta get what you're trying to say.

Lemme tell you something, I used to know a holocaust survivor by the name of Rabbi Isidore Greengrass. He wrote a book titled "Judaism is Indestructible," wherein the title refers to how Judaism survived in spite of the holocaust, with himself being one such example of that. But recently, I've been thinking a lot about the title of that book in general, and I came to an interesting thought:

How truly "indestructible" can Judaism be, if it continues to be fused to a physical nation, whose borders can be - and have been - redrawn? I suppose what I desire is some sort of "Neo-Judaism" - something that doesn't involve praying in a dead dialect of a niche language, wearing a little knitted cap, or even using the iconic hexagram emblem. I believe in something truly invincible - though I'm still proud to be able to associate with the likes of Steven Spielberg, Natalie Portman, and the Three Stooges.

I mean, really? We're supposedly "God's chosen people?" Chosen for what? Chosen to die by the millions during the holocaust? Chosen to consider a war-torn parcel of land the size of New Jersey our ostensible "home?" I think we Jews are better than that.

 

[inCloud]

You know very well whose territory Israel occupied, so don't play dumb.

Both Jordania and Egypt don't want West Bank and Gaza.

Israel has some of the best special forces in the world

There were , at least, 40.000 HAMAS activists. I really doubt that any country have enough spec ops to deal with them, 10 million Israel doesn't.

something that doesn't involve praying in a dead dialect of a niche language, wearing a little knitted cap, or even using the iconic hexagram emblem.

Judaism is wonderful antiassimilation weapon. Without it, Jews will be gone as nation long before holocaust. You should suffer for your nation or assimilate into something bigger. That's how nation concept working. Israel did wonderful job of making nation not just an burden, but something worth fighting for. Wish I had something like that.