Israel - Palestine discussion thread

Tornado




Israel better get all those war crimes out of their system this time around, because I'm strongly questioning how much longer the "always support Israel unequivocally no matter what they happen to do or how increasingly little that support is reciprocated" foreign policy of the US is for this world.
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The trouble is, the majority of those calling for a ceasefire right now mainly have Israel in mind as their target audience.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah, on the other hand, will not stop unless they are forced to.

It's a real pity that there are not more protests across the world demanding Hamas and other Iranian proxies stop firing rockets.
 
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Touring Mars
The trouble is, the majority of those calling for a ceasefire right now mainly have Israel in mind as their target audience.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah, on the other hand, will not stop unless they are forced to.

It's a real pity that there are not more protests across the world demanding Hamas and other Iranian proxies stop firing rockets.
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I don't even know what the option is. Hamas won't recognize Israel having a right to exist, no border country wants to take in the refugees from Gaza, what is the end game? If Israel just stops, they let Hamas continue to exist.
 
Blitz24
I don't even know what the option is. Hamas won't recognize Israel having a right to exist, no border country wants to take in the refugees from Gaza, what is the end game? If Israel just stops, they let Hamas continue to exist.
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inCloud
We have UN for these situations. Thing should start doing something or there is no point in it. Its became platform for RF nonsense claims.
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We have to start by admitting that anybody who desires an ethnic or theocratic state is a mentally ill zealot and should not be allowed to make decisions for anybody.

After we admit that truth, then it's easy for the UN to simply ban anybody from creating one in or around Palestine. As the cradle of all things holy - in particular our God-given right to conduct war and genocide - no one nation should be allowed to set up shop. Instead, the UN should create and govern literally a united nation, where all people and all religions are governed by a constitution and the rule of law protecting all walks of life yada yada. The Jews can either live there or live in Kansas, I don't care. Palestinians can either live there or live in Nebraska, I don't care. But the land around Jerusalem - by that I mean everything Israel, Gaza, West Bank - should cease to exist as a nation and should become a UN territory.
 
Keef
We have to start by admitting that anybody who desires an ethnic or theocratic state is a mentally ill zealot and should not be allowed to make decisions for anybody.

After we admit that truth, then it's easy for the UN to simply ban anybody from creating one in or around Palestine. As the cradle of all things holy - in particular our God-given right to conduct war and genocide - no one nation should be allowed to set up shop. Instead, the UN should create and govern literally a united nation, where all people and all religions are governed by a constitution and the rule of law protecting all walks of life yada yada. The Jews can either live there or live in Kansas, I don't care. Palestinians can either live there or live in Nebraska, I don't care. But the land around Jerusalem - by that I mean everything Israel, Gaza, West Bank - should cease to exist as a nation and should become a UN territory.
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That sure is an interesting solution.
 
Touring Mars
The trouble is, the majority of those calling for a ceasefire right now mainly have Israel in mind as their target audience.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah, on the other hand, will not stop unless they are forced to.

It's a real pity that there are not more protests across the world demanding Hamas and other Iranian proxies stop firing rockets.
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I don't think it matters. "Israel blows up hospital, 500 dead" isn't the kind of headline that news agencies can just try to quietly walk back like they could a decade ago. US politicians, popular ones, openly questioning whether we should be supporting Israel with no conditions as Israel carpet bombs everything that even looks Palestinian in the backdrop isn't something that can be blown off as "why do you hate the Jews, Hitler" like it could when Obama was President.
 
Dennisch
And every single trustworthy news outlet is still reporting 500+ dead and a destroyed hospital, when all we see is a burned parking lot.

Edit

And they were all quick in blaming Israel of course. Because when Hamas reports something it must be true, and then this happens.

ajVjp20_460s.jpg
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They're all untrustworthy. Remember, these articles are primarily written by intensely librul New Yorkers who are so passionate about saving ethnic minorities that they cry themselves to sleep before their afternoon nap. They hide bad journalism behind paywalls so their crap articles aren't spread rapidly through the poor and illiterate middle of the country. The offices at NYT and WSJ are basically massive daycares for soft adults.

I highly recommend following Reddit's live thread instead of reading any tripe written by somebody who hears "9/11" and falls to their knees in a panic attack over something that happened 22 years ago. Local and numerous sources are offering way better information than these college-educated BLM activists who never learned how to verify information.

Countless cases of major media publishing obviously false narratives. I'm not sure who is directing them but it's so universal it has to be directed by somebody. Anybody with a logical brain can see right through it.
 
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Keef
They're all untrustworthy. Remember, these articles are primarily written by intensely librul New Yorkers who are so passionate about saving ethnic minorities that they cry themselves to sleep before their afternoon nap. They hide bad journalism behind paywalls so their crap articles aren't spread rapidly through the poor and illiterate middle of the country. The offices at NYT and WSJ are basically massive daycares for soft adults.

I highly recommend following Reddit's live thread instead of reading any tripe written by somebody who hears "9/11" and falls to their knees in a panic attack over something that happened 22 years ago. Local and numerous sources are offering way better information than these college-educated BLM activists who never learned how to verify information.

Countless cases of major media publishing obviously false narratives. I'm not sure who is directing them but it's so universal it has to be directed by somebody. Anybody with a logical brain can see right through it.
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Idk, I feel like The Atlantic and Politico are legit.
 
Hamas: "Israel attacked a hospital and killed 500."

Israel: "No, Hamas is responsible."

[the whole thing was wildly exaggerated]

Very Smart People: "This is why you shouldn't take Hamas' word at face value."

Alison Brie Reaction GIF


And now, per The Times of Israel, Eli Cohen, Israel's Minister of Foreign Affairs, has told Army Radio (full disclosure, I don't actually know anything about any of these entities) that "[a]t the end of this war, not only will Hamas no longer be in Gaza, but the territory of Gaza will also decrease."

If the statement was made as reported...I mean...it sounds like the aim isn't so much to neutralize the legitimate threat of Hamas or to liberate the people of Gaza, but to seize territory. I would have thought it best to not validate unhinged anti-Zionist rhetoric, but I'm just some dude so what do I know?
inCloud
What's wrong with her position? Terrorism is bad. Warcrimes are also bad.
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So I chuckled at this the first time around for how it so completely misses the thrust of my remarks that I question whether it's an honest misinterpration, but given the way the story has unraveled, it's downright hilarious.

And Warren's condemnation is that much more pathetic in light of apparent events. Feckless, even. I mean I'm trying to decide if blaming Israel--even as there's no way she would have done so--wouldn't have been as bad. It would obviously be stupid and wrong, but at least it wouldn't be feckless?
 
I guess that's what parking a giant flotilla off the coast does to a group:

www.cnn.com

2 American hostages being released by Hamas, sources say

Gaza's hospitals are facing collapse as aid at the Rafah crossing destined for the enclave could be delayed another day. Follow here for live news updates.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

Also, bit weird Abu Obaida, a Hamas spokesman, called Biden fascist. Biden is many things, but fascist isn't something I think of when you say Joe Biden.
 
From CNN:
Lebanese Foreign Minister Abdallah Bou Habib is asking Israel to declare a 48-hour ceasefire, telling CNN "then we will know exactly who is starting what."
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Since we have no clue so far.
 
I believe that Israel are now playing right into the hands of Hamas and Iran.There was an astonishing interview with a Hamas leader the other day where he casually announces that nations aren't built without sacrifice, and cites multiple examples of countries losing millions of their people in the struggle to exist. I read into that 'Hamas are prepared to sacrifice the people of Gaza in order to defeat Israel and reestablish Palestine in its place'.

Israel are duly obliging by threatening to wipe out the people of Gaza unless Hamas back down. Israel have, in effect, taken the entire Gazan population hostage in order to secure the return of the hostages taken by Hamas. But I believe that Hamas will not back down for the simple reason that Hamas (and by extension Iran) want Israel to have a genocide on its hands - it gives Israel's opponents the justification* for a full-on war with Israel, and will diminish international support. As seen in Ukraine, the latter point is vital for the plan to work.

Of course, Israel are over a barrel as they cannot let Hamas get away with what they did, but similarly their response cannot be to wipe out the people of Gaza. Hamas' tactics are to basically force Israel into one or the other. Both are terrible options, and Israel is at high risk under both circumstances.

As I and others have said before, however, the best option for Israel is to respond against Hamas very strongly but to ensure that the people of Gaza don't face total devastation. Tragically, Hamas - who are supposed to be the guardians of the Gazan people - seem all too willing to sacrifice them if it achieves their wider agenda of destablising Israel on the international stage. Meanwhile, the poor people of Gaza are starving, dehydrating, and dying in agony on hospital floors because both sides in this conflict won't do what they have to to help them.
 
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The US is 100% going to get pulled into this cluster:
apnews.com

Blinken, Austin say US is ready to respond if US personnel become targets of Israel-Hamas war

Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin say the United States is ready to protect American forces or personnel in the Middle East should the Israel-Hamas war escalate as they expect.
apnews.com apnews.com

The US is bankrolling the Israeli military (and we pretty much always have), so it's just a matter of time before the Hamas strategy shifts to trying to take out the supplier. And since Hamas can't go toe to toe with the US military, they'll have to resort to other means. I don't doubt for a second that we're on the verge of having another massive terrorist attack thanks to our support for Israel.
 
Joey D
The US is 100% going to get pulled into this cluster:
apnews.com

Blinken, Austin say US is ready to respond if US personnel become targets of Israel-Hamas war

Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin say the United States is ready to protect American forces or personnel in the Middle East should the Israel-Hamas war escalate as they expect.
apnews.com apnews.com

The US is bankrolling the Israeli military (and we pretty much always have), so it's just a matter of time before the Hamas strategy shifts to trying to take out the supplier. And since Hamas can't go toe to toe with the US military, they'll have to resort to other means. I don't doubt for a second that we're on the verge of having another massive terrorist attack thanks to our support for Israel.
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Funny you say that.



I'm not claiming any relation at all. This literally just happened, and an investigation will ensue. However, I will say that with the amount of certification and background checking we accomplish, particularly in 121 airlines, for somebody to have the audacity to try and cause an emergency on purpose...if that's not some severe mental illness then it's a straight up terror attempt. I just can't fathom. The only way to get in that jumpseat is to be a fully certified and vetted 121 pilot, or be a certified and vetted officer of the company, or be a properly certified federal employee. Those three people up front have all achieved very difficult things to get where they are and should be the most trustworthy people on the whole boat.

Pending the investigation, an incident like this has the potential to cause more waves in aviation security.

And if you're curious what the DA thinks of this lol. That's a big ope.
 
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Joey D
The US is 100% going to get pulled into this cluster:
apnews.com

Blinken, Austin say US is ready to respond if US personnel become targets of Israel-Hamas war

Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin say the United States is ready to protect American forces or personnel in the Middle East should the Israel-Hamas war escalate as they expect.
apnews.com apnews.com

The US is bankrolling the Israeli military (and we pretty much always have), so it's just a matter of time before the Hamas strategy shifts to trying to take out the supplier. And since Hamas can't go toe to toe with the US military, they'll have to resort to other means. I don't doubt for a second that we're on the verge of having another massive terrorist attack thanks to our support for Israel.
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I worry that Hamas is trying to get Israel to commit a sizeable portion of its armed forces into a Gaza quagmire and then Hezbollah & allies will attack Israel along other fronts. Israel needs to very very careful here to prevent a total catastrophe, both for Palestinians but also for themselves. I fear this has already escalated too far and Israel has suffered a lot of reputational damage which puts them on the defense diplomatically, not a good thing for ride or die USA. We look increasingly vulnerable to being dragged into this if Israel finds itself in a really bad spot with limited international support.

Of course we have brilliant minds in the West, like Ben Shapiro...honestly one of the greatest luminaries of our time, who always and correctly identifies events without context and without multitudes of repercussions....who would push and push Israel into this exact outcome of fighting a war they simply could not win on their own and then dragging the USA into it. Israel could not possibly fight off the Arab and Persian world by themselves - even with better tech (questionable in the light of 10/8) they are absolutely dwarfed in manpower. Iran, alone, has 10x more people.
 
Something I gotta wonder is why the IDF seems to be killing so many civilians in Gaza? I thought they were one of the most competent militaries in the world, so I think either I over-estimated them - at least at some level, whether it's the soldiers or whoever are giving the commands - or it's straight-up malice. Either scenario (but especially the latter) would be notably disappointing to me, as I've typically admired the IDF for their inclusion, such as the mostly-female Caracal Battalion, or the neurodivergent makeup of Unit 9900.
 
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They don’t care, that’s why. It’s pure vengeance at this point. Like when the Americans and Brits killed many Afghan and Iraqi civilians.
 
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MIE1992
I understand that, but why are there so many protests against Israel, then? Are the protesters wrong?
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Both Likud and Hamas are in the wrong; I don't contribute much to this one but as I wrote before, if peace is the goal then crimes against humanity on both sides won't get them there.
 
E05A11E6-63BE-4BEF-A19C-502BF784314F.jpeg

An 85 year old woman held captive by Hamas for over two weeks shakes the hand of one of her captors as she is realised and says 'Shalom'.

Shalom is the Hebrew word for peace. The Arab word for peace is Salaam. Shalom, Salaam...? No coincidence really.

The poor victims of the gut-churning horror of Hamas atrocities on October 7th deserve to Rest in Peace.

The innocent men, women, children and babies being blown to bits by Israeli attacks on Hamas in Gaza deserve to Rest in Peace.

The people of Israel and Palestine deserve to live in peace.

But as long as Hamas, Iran and many others besides are committed to the eradication of Jews, and Israel doesn't afford Palestinians any hope of statehood, then neither side will live in peace. It's beyond time that both sides realised this.

This poor lady went through hell, and her husband is still held by Hamas. And yet, this was her reaction. "Peace".

A heartbreaking and monumental gesture.
 
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