Israel - Palestine discussion thread
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Danoff
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Reuters is reporting that the hospital ran out of fuel today.
Gaza's only cancer hospital goes out of service, health officials say
The only cancer treatment hospital in the Gaza Strip has gone out of service after it ran out of fuel, health officials said on Wednesday.
So it seems that the hospital is still standing.
Some discussion of fire damage on the third floor following a bombing that was... hard to say... nearby?
Israeli warplanes hit Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital in Gaza
Israeli warplanes bombed the third floor of the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital, the only hospital in Gaza for cancer patients, Dr. Subhi Skaik told Anadolu.
www.anews.com.tr
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- 31,446
- Hilversum
- Dennisch
Report of the day is that a refugee camp in Northern Gaza has been obliterated with, of course, many casualties but apart from a photo of a demolished building and big ol crater, no other information or footage.
Anyone still left in Northern Gaza is either a hostage, Hamas or doesn't value his/her life.
Anyone still left in Northern Gaza is either a hostage, Hamas or doesn't value his/her life.
Danoff
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I think this is an unfair characterization intended to avoid empathy for individuals harmed in the region. You should instead confront the real possibility, even the expectation, that innocent people have been unable to leave.
In the US, an easier place to get around than Northern Gaza, the hurricane warnings prior to Katrina were ubiquitous. And yet still we found examples of seniors that died in nursing homes due to the hurricane, unable to flee. Lumping an injured or ill person (or a child, etc.) in with Hamas makes it easier to turn a blind eye to causalities.
To be fair, you did mention hostages.
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Danoff
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Then I am struggling to see the point of your statement. You say "Anyone still left in Northern Gaza is either a hostage, Hamas or doesn't value his/her life." That is true by definition in this case of anyone in the region, based on your definition of a hostage. It is a tautology, so why even mention it? The color blue is blue.
There is a purpose to this statement, and its purpose seems to characterize the people in the area. If the point is not to dehumanize the people so that you can avoid empathizing with them, then the only other purpose I see is to blame Hamas for the casualties. Hamas certainly deserves its share of the blame, but Israel should also refrain from indiscriminately bombing "human shields", or hostages, or whatever.
Ask yourself what you wanted to accomplish with this statement. I believe it was to distance yourself from the immorality of the events, but you can correct me if that's mistaken.
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- GTP_Mars
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but Israel are (at the very least) targetting Hamas with the vast majority, if not all, of its attacks. Civilians are being advised to move in advance, which is in line with the Geneva Convention. Indeed, even hospitals can become legitimate military targets should 'the enemy' (i.e. Hamas) make them targets by using them to facilitate attacks:
But the people of Gaza are between a rock and a hard place.
Israel are giving people no choice but to leave, but many cannot and others will not - not because they are sympathetic to Hamas, but because there's nowhere else for them to go, or simply that they choose to stay in their homes rather than face destitution. Hamas, on the other hand, are stopping many people from leaving and actively seek to keep areas where they are operating awash with people, to use the Gazan population as human shields, even those trapped in hospitals.
It's a horrible state of affairs, and neither side are likely to back down. Israel will claim that they are acting in accordance with the rules of war, such as they are, and Hamas will keep fighting, even if the entire Gazan population end up either homeless, injured or dead. The international community, and especially Israel and Palestine's immediate neighbours, must do more to get aid into Gaza, and get people out.
But the people of Gaza are between a rock and a hard place.
Israel are giving people no choice but to leave, but many cannot and others will not - not because they are sympathetic to Hamas, but because there's nowhere else for them to go, or simply that they choose to stay in their homes rather than face destitution. Hamas, on the other hand, are stopping many people from leaving and actively seek to keep areas where they are operating awash with people, to use the Gazan population as human shields, even those trapped in hospitals.
It's a horrible state of affairs, and neither side are likely to back down. Israel will claim that they are acting in accordance with the rules of war, such as they are, and Hamas will keep fighting, even if the entire Gazan population end up either homeless, injured or dead. The international community, and especially Israel and Palestine's immediate neighbours, must do more to get aid into Gaza, and get people out.
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Danoff
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By "facilitate attacks" you seem to refer to this "unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy". I guess this would mean that if you launch an RPG from a hospital the hospital needs to be given sufficient time to evacuate its people before you blow it up (not that Israel has apparently blown up a hospital in this operation).
I would argue that Israel is not limiting their attacks to facilities which have been used to harm them, and that they have not given reasonable time limits for the scale of what they require. That being said, as best I can tell, they have not attacked any hospitals. So they wouldn't fall short of your particular quote.
"Targeting Hamas" by leveling blocks and shutting off food and water to the region looks indiscriminate to me. I mentioned at the start that Israel would respond with insufficient care, and this looks to me like insufficient care. I'm not sure it's a fair characterization to say that this is "targeting Hamas" even if Hamas is the intended target. If the net is cast wide enough, the target seems to be an entire region of people.
I agree with @Dennisch that Hamas deserves some blame for the casualties. But Israel also deserves blame for those same casualties.
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- 31,446
- Hilversum
- Dennisch
I think you're right, perhaps the last bit was unnecessary for me to mention.
As far as distancing myself, I've accepted quite some time ago that the Israel Palestina saga is the biggest cluster**** on the planet, it will never be resolved unless one of the parties leaves. They don't want to coexist. Too many hardliners on both sides for that to happen.
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If they aren't targeting Hamas with ALL of their attacks, then there's a serious problem.
- 28,936
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I really meant that Israel are likely targeting all combatants and their infrastructure, as opposed to just Hamas personnel.
Unfortunately, of course, targeting infrastructure that will compromise Hamas means compromising civilians as well.
No doubt it is a serious problem, but alas there is absolutely zero will from the Hamas side to seek a non-violent solution to the current situation - far from it in fact.
- 13,830
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Israel hasn't been acting in accordance with the rules of war for years. Most of the world shares the opinion that Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal, and that Israel does not fulfill it's responsibilities as an occupying power. If they can't do that, then what is the likelihood that they're going to suddenly start following the rules in the heat of combat?
The current situation is that they are at war. What reason do Gazans have to think that Israel would abide by any peaceful settlement terms? If you believe that your enemy wants to see you wiped out one way or another, you might as well keep fighting. Israel has historically not done a great job at adhering to the terms of cease-fire agreements.
And that's before we get into the fact that Gazans have seen thousands of their friends and children die, and many of them at this point are probably angry enough just to fight to the death regardless of logic. That's the case for people on both sides, but the numbers of dead on each side mean that there are going to be significantly more of these types of people in Gaza. With every additional death Israel is creating more people that will crawl over broken glass just to spit in their eye.
Gaza has been a territory under siege for years. Israel has had plenty of opportunities to de-escalate, but they chose not to. Where we are today is the result of carefully crafted policy on the part of Israel against people that they have trapped whose options can mostly be summed up as submit or die.
As an occupied territory, Gaza is permitted to fight back. As an illegal occupier, Israel is not. It's on Israel to offer Gaza/Hamas terms that they find acceptable to stop the violence. As it stands, Israel offers Gaza no path to freedom and independence other than violence.
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- Kannon33r
There were 0 Israeli in Gaza since 2005. Israel just leave those people alone with free water and electricity(which was cut off few times because of rockets fired). Egypt could absorb Gaza back any time(UN and Israel will even pay for it). Guess why it doesn't happen.
Situation in West Bank is different and its surprisingly peaceful.
- 13,830
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- Neomone
You can just say you don't know what occupation means. "But there are no Israelis there" has big "I'm not touching you" energy.
Will they? It's the first I've heard of it. Do you have a source for this?
It doesn't really sound like something that the UN would want to be involved or associated with unless Palestine were to give explicit permission.
Why don't you tell us why you think that is?
Right. Because it's different. All occupied territories are not identical.
- 3,426
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- Kannon33r
You mean HAMAS or FATAH? Their isn't state of "Palestine"
HAMAS is part of Muslim Brotherhood and current Egypt government isn't their best friends. No one wants 2.5 millions of poor uneducated infected with radical Islamism Arabs. Even other Arabs. This is reality.
It means one group have temporary control over other group territory. Israel doesn't control Gaza, its under HAMAS.
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Righto. So if there's no Palestinian state, there's no problem, right? All those people in Gaza are stateless, and the land belongs to Israel. Problem solved. Grats on your skill with international diplomacy.
How you can attempt to have an opinion while being so ignorant as to think that there's no such thing as a Palestinian state, I have no idea.
That's the whole reason? Lol, no.
Even taking the rampant hatred out of your description of the Gazans, that's only one part of a very complicated political issue.
It's not even about want with taking every refugee from Gaza, no country in the world can deal with 2+ million refugees all at once. No one has the systems or infrastructure for an influx like that. So that part of it is absolutely not on Egypt, or any other non-Israel country in the region. Or the world, for that matter. If Israel wants to destroy civilian infrastructure in occupied territories, they become responsible for supporting those civilians or responsible for their deaths.
Maybe they could take them all and put them in some sort of camp. That would be ironic.
Lol, no. The UN disagrees with you.
I don't think you understand what "military control" means. Which isn't a surprise when you don't understand what "military occupation" means.
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- Kannon33r
There are two quasi-states - Gaza controlled by HAMAS and West Bank under FATAH. Both, aren't legitimate governments by modern standards. So, yes there aren't any state of Palestine.
No one wants Gaza with people and land
Does Italy and South African Republic occupied Vatican, San-Marino and Lesotho? By UN logic they does.
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- Ridley-X4
At what point does nuking the whole area look like the relatively best option? Idk, I guess it just gives me the idea of two siblings fighting over a toy, only for a parent to take it away and smash it with a hammer. Idgaf that it's the ostensibly "holy" land. Nothin' holy about a land that gets fought over for centuries.
Also, I think making the whole idea some sort of neutral state run by the UN is silly. The UN is toothless and just wags their finger at whatever they don't like. The fact that they had Saudi Arabia (or maybe it was Iran) on some sort of women's rights commission is a joke.
Also, I think making the whole idea some sort of neutral state run by the UN is silly. The UN is toothless and just wags their finger at whatever they don't like. The fact that they had Saudi Arabia (or maybe it was Iran) on some sort of women's rights commission is a joke.
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- 4,740
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It also kills me that it feels like no matter what statement you give on the conflict - or even if you say nothing - people get upset. Here's my idea: I'd divide my audience into four groups: pro-Israel, pro-Palestine, those who are for both Israel and Palestine, and those who'd rather me say nothing. I'd pit them all against each other in a bidding war, and whoever pays me the most out of those four gets the corresponding statement (or lack thereof). That way, it's democracy at its finest, and I only represent the voice of the people. Got a problem with what I say? Blame the people who gave me the most money, not me.
How about without warning? Just kill everyone. I just don't know if I care anymore. Blow up the temple mount, the dome of the rock, the holy sepulcher, I don't care. Feels like omnicide is the only answer. Or maybe I'm just not in a good mood today. The thought of nuking that area just seems like a solution in the vein of the Gordian Knot.
EDIT: I guess I'm just really upset and disappointed with all the unrest at the high-end American universities, where I thought people were wise and smart. I thought those sort of students were above me, so it sort of terrifies me that they could end up being lawyers or members of government when they're willing to excuse what happened October 7th. I'm almost inclined to say that we should just give every Jewish student a Galil and let them go nuts. Y'know what they say, FA+FO. I want all these holier-than-thou Ivy League troglodytes be given a "scared-straight" tour of Guantanamo Bay so that they know what's in store if them if they're gonna excuse terrorism.
EDIT2: Maybe I'm just depressed and can't think straight today. But I just feel like this is all just a big unraveling of the social contract. We're talking full-on "Mad Max" barbarism being the norm. Society's dead, man.
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Danoff
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I can understand that.
People can be very intelligent in one way, and very stupid in another. There is one person who springs to mind, whom I have met, who ran a bigshot lawfirm as the first named partner on the firm, who wrote part of the US legal code, who is a brilliant and very impressive individual who I've had very insightful conversations with and have been surprised at his ability to understand nuances involved in science and engineering, which are not even his field...
...and who believes deeply in the healing powers of crystals because his back pain got better once.
Everyone at his firm just tolerated when he put a crystal up in the conference room to block the negative energy coming off of a sharp edge of a nearby highrise. He's still a smart dude who is right about a lot of things.
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- 7,720
- Horbury, West Yorkshire
- GTP_Sprite
I had an aunty who was exactly the same…
She had multiple degrees and masters in her name along with a doctorate. Her special field of study was old Germanic languages and medical texts. At one point she ran a huge medical library and when surgeons needed texts and data on specific things she’d compile huge tomes and she handed it to them, best is she understood it all.
At one point when she was younger she was proposed to by some Lord who she turned down because she wanted a career. She never married or had children and studied up to near her death.
Super imposing and impressive women, yet she could burn water when trying to boil an egg, she couldn’t do simple mundane tasks and didn’t take very good care of herself, in the end it’s what killed her, despite having ready meals delivered which she needed to reheat, she chose to just eat junk like chocolate and crisps etc and even at one point cooked the back of her leg on her fire because the skin was so full of water and dead she couldn’t feel the heat and she only noticed because of the smell.
I think most of us have a balance of intelegence in a studious way and also life skills and others just have one or the other. Either super smart with no life skills or all life skills but the old biscuit barrel is empty intellectually speaking.
Critical thinking should be taught at school and so should compassion.
What’s happening in Gaza is depressing and sad to see, but not surprising given the regions past troubles over many, many years.
I can see both sides points of why they’re doing what they’re doing but too many innocent people have been caught up in it and even if by some fluke chance peace is restored in some fashion. The pain of what has happened this year is going to fuel hate for year and years to come.
Sometimes you have to wonder if Thanos was correct.
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- 31,446
- Hilversum
- Dennisch
Israel opened up a safe corridor today for people to flee south, under the protection of the IDF. No incidents happened but as soon as the corridor was closed again, they kept it open for an extra hour, Israel started a bombardment that is still going on. Close to 7 hours now.
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