Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Blitz24]

Can I just say something here? I think it's so damn stupid to market Israel as a "save haven" for Jews. I often say half-jokingly, we already have a state - it's called New York. But allow me to ask in earnest: which nation needs the Iron Dome? Which nations needs every residence to have a "safe room" to hide from terrorists? Which nation has an incompetent military that shoots not one, not two, but three hostages they were sent to rescue?

I support Israel for various reasons, such as the fact that a cousin that I particularly admire lives there, alongside her respective family. Or the fact that they offer us some neat military tech, like how IAI helped to develop the helmet used for the F-35, or how IWI partially developed the iconic Desert Eagle. Not to mention their egalitarian military, which includes the mostly-women Caracal Battalion, or the neurodivergent makeup of Unit 9900.

But both Bibi and Hamas must go. I would hope that this is not a controversial opinion. Israel was never my ostensible homeland - it's always been the United States of America, as my ancestors arrived here over a century ago. Or maybe this is just part of my disillusionment of Judaism that's been occurring my entire life. I always loathed going to synagogue - and yet, I could never see myself converting. I like being associated with Steven Spielberg, Natalie Portman, Erik "Harry Houdini" Weisz, and David Lee Roth - not to mention over a fifth of Nobel Prize laureates, among other profoundly erudite folk.

(And @Blitz24, I'd like to formally apologize for my earlier unhinged sentiments ITT - they were incredibly daft, even by my standards.)

However, I think this geopolitical aspect of Judaism - being fused to the relatively contemporary nation of Israel - should be challenged and questioned within reason. Those Ivy League kids chanting for Israel to be dismantled? Yeah, they're delusional at best. But I get the idea that Judaism should be something more transcendent and sublime. Something, as the late Holocaust survivor Rabbi Isidore Greengrass mentioned, is truly indestructible - though by using that word he was more specifically referring to how Judaism survived the Holocaust. But how "indestructible" is a religion when it's tied to a nation that can have its borders redrawn - and has?

Bibi will go. I would be stunned if he somehow stays in office for very long after the conflict in its current state ends. As has been said before, right now they are in the react phase of what happened on October 7th. Once the campaign ends, he will probably be ousted at the next election.

Speaking of the current campaign, I'm not really sure how much is going to get done in terms of a ceasefire. Apparently the latest offer negotiated by Egypt and Qatar was that Hamas would release all remaining hostages if Israel releases 8,150 Palestinian prisoners. In addition, the ceasefire would only last for 2 weeks.

 

[feral and bad]

MIE1992 said:
"how "indestructible" is a religion when it's tied to a nation that can have its borders redrawn - and has?"

I hope this helps.
I finally created an account on GTPlanet because of your post. I have started to many times and ultimately did not because I deemed it not worth the effort.
I am not Jewish or near Eastern in any sense. I am mostly of European and native American descent. I am giving this for frame of reference.
You are probably aware from the Torah that Israel is indestructable, and has existed in many different physical locations. You are probably also aware that the earthly reasons for its' many physical locations (exile). As your are also aware HIS ways and thoughts are above ours and that HE is perfectly capable of using man's lapses into evil for HIS own purposes. I am told that the Talmud offers the following explanation for the phenomenon of exile : “The people of Israel were exiled amongst the nations only so that converts might be added to them.”
Regards.

 

[Liquid]

I would be stunned if he somehow stays in office for very long after the conflict in its current state ends.

How long is that going to be though?

 

[MIE1992]

MIE1992 said:
"how "indestructible" is a religion when it's tied to a nation that can have its borders redrawn - and has?"

I hope this helps.
I finally created an account on GTPlanet because of your post. I have started to many times and ultimately did not because I deemed it not worth the effort.
I am not Jewish or near Eastern in any sense. I am mostly of European and native American descent. I am giving this for frame of reference.
You are probably aware from the Torah that Israel is indestructable, and has existed in many different physical locations. You are probably also aware that the earthly reasons for its' many physical locations (exile). As your are also aware HIS ways and thoughts are above ours and that HE is perfectly capable of using man's lapses into evil for HIS own purposes. I am told that the Talmud offers the following explanation for the phenomenon of exile : “The people of Israel were exiled amongst the nations only so that converts might be added to them.”
Regards.

If God didn’t intervene to save his ostensibly “chosen” people during the shoah, why should I be so set on believing him? Not to say I’m an adamant atheist, either - definitely more of an agnostic - but I think any support for Israel based purely in religion is stupid.

If one is going to support Israel, I’d say that the least someone could do is make a much more secular case, like their remarkable military IT sector, or how I have a more personal stake in the form of my cousin and her family. But saying “God works in mysterious ways,” or whatever is such a cop-out.

 

[feral and bad]

If God didn’t intervene to save his ostensibly “chosen” people during the shoah, why should I be so set on believing him? Not to say I’m an adamant atheist, either - definitely more of an agnostic - but I think any support for Israel based purely in religion is stupid.

If one is going to support Israel, I’d say that the least someone could do is make a much more secular case, like their remarkable military IT sector, or how I have a more personal stake in the form of my cousin and her family. But saying “God works in mysterious ways,” or whatever is such a cop-out.

I think one of the problems is the definition of "chosen". As anyone who has ever been "chosen" for anything knows, it does not mean free pass, it means opportunity for greater reward. Any relationship requires both sides to chose each other, so they can be better together. Being chosen never means no suffering, it usually means more, as anyone who has lost anything living will attest. There are many examples, biblical and otherwise of people who have suffered and been rewarded. One can certainly argue about the method they were chosen by, and whether they had any choice in the matter. I do wonder if every attempt to exterminate the Jewish people would have failed, had G-D not been on their side. Many, many races and tribes have been erased from this planet by their enemies.

 

[Liquid]

No, the point is that being a "chosen" people is meaningless in the context in belief in god because it cannot be proven, which is a discussion in itself that we have in the general god thread, and, irrespective of your own personal belief in a religion and whether your god says you're his chosen favourites or not, in the temporal, political world it severely dents your credibility when that country commits its own atrocities, as @MIE1992 outlined with blind support for Israel by Jews.

Such obedient support for Israel is even used as a tool and encouraged by non-Jewish bigots in the wider white world such as the instructive unpersoning done by the far-right in the United States in telling Jewish US citizens to support Israel because Israel is "their country". Saying this, presenting a foreign nation as their real country, to thousands upon thousands of people about a country they might have never been to or cared about?

You might as well instruct all Catholics to blindly support Italy.

 

[Oreca 1998]

Here are two very interesting videos you might be interested in having a discussion over:






One can definitely pick a side but objectively speaking both sides are being oppressed by the Israeli regime. Hamas will never cease to exist as long as an extremist Israeli regime is in power.

 

[Shahar]

NYT has posted an independent investigation confirming the many reports of rape during October 7th.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html

I found this to be the most horrifying testimony (spoiler because NSFW):

Spoiler: [Rape and Murder warning]

The first victim she saw was a young woman with copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she flinched, he plunged a knife into her back....While one terrorist raped her, another pulled out a box cutter and sliced off her breast.....“One continues to rape her, and the other throws her breast to someone else, and they play with it, throw it, and it falls on the road,”....the men sliced her face and then the woman fell out of view. Around the same time, she saw three other women raped and terrorists carrying the severed heads of three more women

 

[Touring Mars]

One can definitely pick a side but objectively speaking both sides are being oppressed by the Israeli regime.

One could say exactly the same about Hamas.

--

@Shahar Horrific and appalling testimony, but sadly not surprising given the nature of Hamas and other extremists whose raison d'etre is the elimination of Jews and Israel as a state. I have no doubt that Hamas and their powerful sponsors deliberately set out to enrage Israel and the world with the atrocities of October 7th, and hence although I have sympathy for the people of Gaza, I have zero sympathy for the barbaric Hamas regime who are currently using 100+ Israelis and 2.2 million Gazans as human shields.

 

[Oreca 1998]

One could say exactly the same about Hamas.

--

@Shahar Horrific and appalling testimony, but sadly not surprising given the nature of Hamas and other extremists whose raison d'etre is the elimination of Jews and Israel as a state. I have no doubt that Hamas and their powerful sponsors deliberately set out to enrage Israel and the world with the atrocities of October 7th, and hence although I have sympathy for the people of Gaza, I have zero sympathy for the barbaric Hamas regime who are currently using 100+ Israelis and 2.2 million Gazans as human shields.

Don't be biased as this "conflict" isn't a matter of who's right and who's wrong. Netanyahu funded Hamas to divide the Palestinians into 2 groups: Fateh vs Hamas, The West Bank vs Gaza, thus rendering the two state resolution useless because of manufactured "instability" among Palestinians. I read so many comments and replies saying "Hamas are using hostages and civilians as human shields" yet I see no one talking about the failures of the IDF to even kill one Hamas leader after they've wiped off entire families with their indiscriminate bombing. Jews, Christians and Muslims worldwide are against this genocide of people of the book and then there's people picking sides as if this war is a football match.

 

[Liquid]

Spoiler alert:

Both Hamas and Likud are *****.

 

[Keef]

Happy New Year to everyone except these buildings in particular.

 

[Touring Mars]

Don't be biased as this "conflict" isn't a matter of who's right and who's wrong. Netanyahu funded Hamas to divide the Palestinians into 2 groups: Fateh vs Hamas, The West Bank vs Gaza, thus rendering the two state resolution useless because of manufactured "instability" among Palestinians. I read so many comments and replies saying "Hamas are using hostages and civilians as human shields" yet I see no one talking about the failures of the IDF to even kill one Hamas leader after they've wiped off entire families with their indiscriminate bombing. Jews, Christians and Muslims worldwide are against this genocide of people of the book and then there's people picking sides as if this war is a football match.

No bias here. I already pointed out Netanyahu's very ill-advised strategy regarding Hamas in Gaza in this thread, and I deplore his attitude to humanitarian aid for Gaza, plus his general attitude towards finding a peaceful and just solution for Palestinians, which seems to be non-existent.

But none of that detracts from the inhuman behaviour and despicable doctrine of Hamas and their backers. There is terrible fault on both sides that have brought about this horrible situation unfolding in Gaza. Only those who advocate for a lasting peace for both Israelis and Palestinians deserve any respect.

 

[Michael88]

Anyone seen this?



Apparently made by an Israeli comedy show

 

[Alfred1]

A lot of damage has already been done and the war seems to be expanding which is not a good thing for all the entire region.

 

[MIE1992]

A lot of damage has already been done and the war seems to be expanding which is not a good thing for all the entire region.

Unless you own shares in something like XAR, I suppose.

 

[Dennisch]

The Houthis are finding out what ****ing around causes.

 

[Joey D]

The Houthis are finding out what ****ing around causes.

 

[p78]

Israel has to appear in front of the ICJ for genocide.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-safrica-face-off-un-top-court-gaza-genocide-case-2024-01-11/

 

[Carbonox]

Looks like the Houthis found themselves a Hitler of their own to scream the usual death to their enemies.



Time will tell what the heavy price they promised entails. A reference to how expensive the missiles are? Or are they saying the Americans will develop headaches from listening to the whining?

 

[Touring Mars]

The Houthis are finding out what ****ing around causes.

The Houthis just mistakenly attacked a vessel carrying Russian oil.

That's what Homer Simpson would call a Houthi McBoob.

- Fine. Hooty McBoob it is. - Good night, Homer.

The Simpsons (1989) - S10E13 Comedy clip with quote - Fine. Hooty McBoob it is. - Good night, Homer. Yarn is the best search for video clips by quote. Find the exact moment in a TV show, movie, or music video you want to share. Easily move forward or backward to get to the perfect clip.

getyarn.io

 

[R3V]

There is terrible fault on both sides that have brought about this horrible situation unfolding in Gaza

Only one side is capable of a genocide and is currently doing an ethnic cleansing.

I've mentioned before that I wish Hamas, their supporters and anyone like them would cease to exist, but both siding this issue is disturbing.

 

[UKMikey]

Staff threaten to strike over termination of ABC host | Australian Broadcasting Corporation | The Guardian

Threat of walkout comes as national broadcaster files its response to wrongful dismissal claim brought by presenter

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Famine]

both siding this issue is disturbing

So is refusing to recognise that there are significant issues on both sides and mischaracterising any such opinion that this exists as a claim that the issues are equal and proportionate.

Hamas wants to wipe out Israel and will put the people it claims to represent (having lied its way into power) in harm's way to achieve this unachieveable goal. Netanyahu is a murderous prick who is more than happy to shoot through those Palestinians to achieve his much more achieveable goals (what with having one of the most advanced militaries in the world) because he doesn't even view them as human, thinks cramming two million of them into an open-air ghetto/prison in the first place is just fine, and in any case wants their land for Israel and needs an enemy to justify flattening it to the piss-weak international community.

There is indeed a terrible fault on both sides that has brought about this horrible situation. About the only equal part of it though is that neither of the sides cares about killing Palestinians.

 

[R3V]

So is refusing to recognise that there are significant issues on both sides and mischaracterising any such opinion that this exists as a claim that the issues are equal and proportionate.

Hamas wants to wipe out Israel and will put the people it claims to represent (having lied its way into power) in harm's way to achieve this unachieveable goal. Netanyahu is a murderous prick who is more than happy to shoot through those Palestinians to achieve his much more achieveable goals (what with having one of the most advanced militaries in the world) because he doesn't even view them as human, thinks cramming two million of them into an open-air ghetto/prison in the first place is just fine, and in any case wants their land for Israel and needs an enemy to justify flattening it to the piss-weak international community.

There is indeed a terrible fault on both sides that has brought about this horrible situation. About the only equal part of it though is that neither of the sides cares about killing Palestinians.

You're equating intent to genocide by a few people with actual genocide by a powerful government. They are not the same. This is a false equivalency and you know it.

 

[Famine]

You're equating

No. You're pretending this - on both @Touring Mars's behalf and mine - right after I just told you that you were doing this.

This is a false equivalency

Yes. Why are you drawing it and pretending other people are after being told that you were?

So is refusing to recognise that there are significant issues on both sides and mischaracterising any such opinion that this exists as a claim that the issues are equal and proportionate.

 

[R3V]

No. You're pretending this - on both @Touring Mars's behalf and mine - right after I just told you that you were doing this.

Yes. Why are you drawing it and pretending other people are after being told that you were?

I'm confused. So you acknowledge that it's not equal and not proportionate? If so, how can you still say there's two sides? Whenever there's two sides to an issue, the implication is they're equal or proportional. In a football match where the score is 15-0, I'm pretty sure it's called "one sided" even though there's technically another side.

In any case, the issue at hand today is the ongoing massacre. Hamas or no Hamas. I don't understand why there's any emphasis or effort put into talking about them as if their existence justifies what's happening.

 

[Famine]

So you acknowledge that it's not equal and not proportionate?

No. I outright stated it in my first post, and you immediately acted like it wasn't there so that you could pretend I said different.

I'm confused.

No, you're not. You're being deliberately dishonest and pretending things have been said that haven't and vice versa - first with @Touring Mars and now with me, despite the fact my post was literally pointing this out.

I don't know why (but I can guess) and it stops now. Frankly it should have stopped after my first post.

 

[R3V]

No. I outright stated it in my first post, and you immediately acted like it wasn't there so that you could pretend I said different.

No, you're not. You're being deliberately dishonest and pretending things have been said that haven't and vice versa - first with @Touring Mars and now with me, despite the fact my post was literally pointing this out.

I don't know why (but I can guess) and it stops now. Frankly it should have stopped after my first post.

You know, I was willing to brush this off as a misunderstanding and may have even apologized, but now that you're outright calling me dishonest and putting thoughts in my head, I won't. Being an admin doesn't give you any right to get into someone's intention. If you don't like what I actually said, do as you wish without resorting to such statements.

You and Touring Mars said "There is terrible fault on both sides that have brought about this horrible situation unfolding in Gaza". Hamas did not bring about a genocide. Nothing does. The wording here implies that what Hamas has done somehow, even if by a little, justifies or excuses what followed. It seemed to me that you're stating two contradictory things. On one hand you say both sides brought about the situation, then say it's not equal. At best, one dilutes the other's meaning.

At this point I honestly do not care anymore. At least you're acknowledging the horror of what people in Gaza are going through. I only wish that everyone would stop being afraid of being called anti-semitic, which I suspect is the reason Hamas has to be brought up every single time something negative is said about Israel. The "But Khamas" meme was already too old in 2018.

 

[Famine]

I won't.

Yeah, no shock.

You've deliberately reinterpreted posts to pretend that the posters are directly equating the two sides, including - and this is absolutely staggering - a post that clearly stated that this was not what people were saying and that you were reinterpreting them all in order to do so.

Now you're going down the "at least you're acknowledging" route for something that was clearly stated in the original post, as if you've scored an admission.

This is flat-out bad faith engagement (to form) and your ability to do so in this thread has been terminated.