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Israel - Palestine discussion thread
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Danoff
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I've seen reports of white phosphorous in Gaza being called misinformation. Do we have this from a reputable source? I'm not familiar with human rights watch on xtwitter.
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inCloud
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Yes, you are. Civilian population shouldn't be targeted. Yet, there are difference between citizens of enemy state, neutral state and you own state.
2007, AFAIK.
They brainwashing since kindergarten, its doubtful that there are any opposition in Gaza.
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If that is the signature explosion of white phosphorus, I can confirm that it has been used because it was visible during one of the live streams yesterday, either on Reuters or the Independent.
Danoff
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Israel used white phosphorus weapons in Gaza, says human rights group
A spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces said the allegation "is unequivocally false. The IDF has not deployed the use of such munitions."
www.nbcnews.com
It seems like evidence is starting to accumulate from several sources, but Israel is saying it's false.
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I love how my country is ran by completely spineless cowards.
Danoff
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Seems uncalled for to me. I don't agree with the decision not to call for a ceasefire, but I don't think that decision was made out of fear or spinelessness. I think Biden is convinced for one reason or another that Israel needs to be permitted to continue. It doesn't appear to be fear, but conviction.
I think the conviction is misplaced. Atrocities are being committed in response to atrocities and they need to be called what they are instead of backing one side's dubious moral standing.
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Danoff
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I disagree with your characterization of Biden. It seems to lack a deeper understanding of the current state of the American political structure, and what is required for effecting any particular change. I do share your criticism of him over Israel. I would like to see him refuse to support this behavior.
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Therein lies the problem. International law doesn't really differentiate between citizens of an enemy state, or of a neutral state, or your own state. Civilians have no allegation (unless they're engaged in activities that actively support the war effort - bombing, say, a munition factory is indeed legal; bombing a residential building or a school or a hospital, however, isn't).
Then there's the problem of whether the Gaza strip even counts as an enemy state - Israel doesn't recognize the sovereignty of Palestine (and has clearly stated as much to the ICC), therefore this should be treated as an internal conflict*, therefore indiscriminately bombing the civilian population is an inexcusable war crime.
If they are brainwashed since kindergarten, is it really their choice to support Hamas? It's very rare that an individual can break off the mental schemes imparted during childhood - and even if somebody in the Gaza strip suddenly realized that Hamas is wicked and evil, what could they do, where would they go?
I'm sure there'd be a lot less people living near Hamas weapon caches and rocket launchers, if they had an actual choice.
Doing so, however, opens a whole different can of worms, for example regarding the citizenship status of residents of the Gaza strip. I don't feel fully qualified to tackle that, as international law and ius in bellum are not my main area of expertise, and when I've asked colleagues who are more knowledgeable than me on the subject for the cliffnotes, they just gave me a thousand-yard stare... 
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Jews get police protection orders direct from the president of the United States, while Muslims get a visit and interrogation from the FBI. Every single time. The U.S. white supremacy is in full display here.
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Israel used white phosphorus weapons in Gaza, says human rights group
A spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces said the allegation "is unequivocally false. The IDF has not deployed the use of such munitions."
It seems like evidence is starting to accumulate from several sources, but Israel is saying it's false.
Israel has denied using white phosphorus in the past and then later walked back to "well we targeted empty areas without civilians," which is challenging given the density of Gaza and the location of Hamas strongholds.
It's pretty clear Israel has virtually no concerns for Palestinian civilians at this point.
White supremacists have a pretty deep history of anti-Semitism. This is more a demonstration of blindly backing Israel and Islamophobia that's been fairly pervasive since 9/11
Danoff
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Islam doesn't either. Its a boogeyman in America. Christian Americans are the most violent group in the United States by far. Domestic terrorism is a far bigger threat and have claimed way more lives combined than 9/11 has. I'm far more anxious around white men then I would ever be around someone that looked like an arab.
Changing the subject for a moment, ya'll want to know what is really ****ed up? This current conflict in Israel isn't even the worst thing happening in the middle east. https://time.com/6322574/cultural-genocide-armenia-nagorno-karabakh-essay/
inCloud
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Its more like civilians at controlled by you territory or by enemy.
De facto, it does. Several times Israel tried to exchange territories for peaceful coexistence, but POL regretted them. HAMAS doesn't want to talk at all, they just want to kill every "jew".
No. But it's problem that should be solved. Palestinians couldn't solve it. UN can't. Other islamic states don't want to. Only one who can and want is Israel. And they do. Because there aren't any other choice.
Its not fair, its brutal, but it should be done.
It somewhat peaceful at least. Both sides are well known haters of each other and committed warcrimes and real genocide.
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So to you, the only options are boots on the ground or 500lb bombs? Good job you're not in charge, I suppose.
Quite. I imagine if someone invented a drone that could mount things other than cameras it could be rather useful.
Maybe you should buy a subscription to Janes or something, you'd probably learn all sorts of useful things. For example, the existence of the AGM-114 R9X - a weapon designed for precision strikes against targets in lightly armoured vehicles that can be launched from a drone.
This idea that Israel is bombing Gaza because it's the only safe way to take out specific targets is dribble if you take the time to think about it for more than two seconds. If they wanted to just take out specific targets, there are many better ways of doing that without collateral damage. Israel has access to pretty much any mainstream weapon that exists in the US military stockpile if they ask for it. They're causing collateral damage because they want to.
Why they would see that collateral damage as desirable is anyone's guess, but I don't think there's a particularly good answer to that question.
inCloud
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Even that would not be argument for islamic radical. AFAIK, no one knows how to argue with brainwashed religious fanatics, only way that work till now is aggressive filtration of most radical ones and secular education. For obvious reasons, you need to eliminate HAMAS before you can do this. Its not humanistic at all, but anyone knows better ways?
Because they just evils jews that wants to dominate the World, I guess.
And HAMAS driving openair in Toyota Hiluxes, not sitting in bunkers under high-rise buildings.
Joey D
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Russians have been brainwashed since kindergarten, it's doubtful that there is any opposition to Russia's genocidal and imperialistic nature.
Do you not continue to see how ridiculous your position on Gaza and Hamas sounds? Not everyone in Gaza supports Hamas, many don't have a choice in the matter and, despite what you've continued to say, they can't leave either (even if the weather is good, which is an odd take). Yes, many obviously do support Hamas, but to blanketly say everyone in Palestine is pro-war and pro-Hamas is profoundly ignorant.
inCloud
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I could prove you wrong, could you?
I didn't say that, but we can't see any signs of opposite. Even West Bank is on brink of becoming another HAMAS nest. Second biggest force in Palestine is too scared to do any elections for years.
Lack of opposition doesn't mean there isn't electorate that would choose it. Problem is, it doesn't matter if everyone in Gaza is wants to kill every Israeli or not, with HAMAS in power they are violence and poverty generator anyway.
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Hamas still manages to cross the border...
...and they are not stopping to fire rockets at Israeli cities.
This pic is a couple of days old, but it's crazy how many rockets they have. You can see the trails from previous launches in the background.
Seen the original video, the The Times just muted the song and added comments.
...and they are not stopping to fire rockets at Israeli cities.
This pic is a couple of days old, but it's crazy how many rockets they have. You can see the trails from previous launches in the background.
Seen the original video, the The Times just muted the song and added comments.
Joey D
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It's your logic. I don't think all Russians are like that, but using your logic they would be.
You're doubtful there's any opposition, which either means the population supports or doesn't mind Hamas. So yes, you did say that. It's massively ignorant to say the entire country is at least OK with terrorists in charge, which is exactly what you are saying.
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inCloud
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Any signs of orthodox Jew beheading anyone? Burning alive someone in car? Broking both legs of some lady? Nothing wrong with Islam, but comparison between orthodox Jewish believes and version of Islam in Gaza is pathetic antisemitism.
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I’d say the likelihood of people being burned alive in cars and women with broken legs is a yes after the strikes against people trying to get out of the way.
While I agree with your point that Palestinians could move a around a little to try and avoid being hit in strikes against supposed Hamas targets, they don’t have a lot of room to go to…
Shooting fish in a barrel springs to mind.
But when they do try and get out of the way Israel does this kind of thing. A tactic out of Putlers playbook.
I find it strange that a people who have had first hand experience at such evil against them, targeted just because of their religion, they would show the same hatred and vitriol to another group of people.
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Danoff
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I didn't say anything about white people or christians. I said a fear of Islam seems rational because it hatches a lot of terrorism (and other kinds of crimes). I also didn't say anything about people that "looked like an arab".
Orthodox Jews are bombing and starving innocent children right now bud. I choose to mention kids mostly because I assume you can't be convinced to see some adults in the area as not being Hamas terrorists.
Joey D
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The logic that everyone in Palestine must support Hamas because they've been brainwashed since kindergarten and they're not capable of any other thought. I used that logic to put it in the context of Russia since I assumed you'd see just how ridiculous that line of thinking is. Russia and prior to the Soviet Union brainwashed its population, yet there are plenty of Russians who don't subscribe to your country's genocidal and imperialistic ways. Using your logic, a vast majority of Russians should be cool with war crimes since only a small number are actually protesting.
Also, what is so difficult to understand that broadly saying all Palestinians support, or at least are OK with, Hamas and therefore terrorism is not just ignorant; it's prejudice too. Not all Palestinians are terrorists or support terrorism, even without concrete proof, it doesn't take much thought to consider that there isn't a population in the world that 100% supports one thing. Also, how many Palestinians don't do anything because they can't? Or they're worried about their families? Or they just do have the means to do it? I'm sure the same thing happens in Russia with people protesting Putin, even though they hate him and hate what the country is doing the repercussions keep them from speaking out.
