Israel - Palestine discussion thread

This is one of those things I won't check for myself, I've seen enough of it all.

It seems that twitter has the links, for those interested enough to fact check it.
I dont blame you, its best not to dig too deeply into Twitter stuff, if you do so a warning (not you specifically but anyone reading this): Twitter is a cesspool for information, much of it is completely fabricated. Remember, blue checkmarks are paid for now, they no longer offer credibility of any kind, the exact opposite really. Knowing what is and isn't a reliable source is really important, and honestly you're not going to find it too often on Twitter. I hate sharing twitter links to be honest, but it still has its uses.
 
Thats me:
They are citizens of enemy state, so it does. Non combatants shouldn't be targeted, if possible.
This you?
You quoted two sentences out of 10+, without context. Blatant cherry picking.
There are people in Palestine who are not OK with what Hamas is doing
Any proofs?
you have precisely zero way to get out of the situation you're in
What's wrong with ability to leave house full of explosives?
accepting that you're an enemy
Yes, I am citizen of enemy state and by default enemy of Ukraine.
 
Thats me:


You quoted two sentences out of 10+, without context. Blatant cherry picking.

Any proofs?

What's wrong with ability to leave house full of explosives?
You've arrived at a preposterous conclusion. This should cause you to re-evaluate. Specifically, from what I recall, I don't think you can fairly be characterized as the enemy of Ukraine.

Also, give the explosives thing a rest. Israel is leveling neighborhoods and laying siege to the entire region. We're not talking about a house full of explosives. That's just silly.
 
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It seems that the baby decapitation story is true, seeing as there are more and more reports coming out from reputable sources.
Last I read this afternoon, even the Israeli govt. can not confirm that report.
The Israeli government has not confirmed the specific claim that Hamas attackers cut off the heads of babies during their shock attack on Saturday, an Israeli official told CNN, contradicting a previous public statement by the Prime Minister’s office.


“There have been cases of Hamas militants carrying out beheadings and other ISIS-style atrocities. However, we cannot confirm if the victims were men or women, soldiers or civilians, adults or children,” the official said.
 
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You quoted two sentences out of 10+, without context. Blatant cherry picking.
You responded to this:
That doesn't make all gazans their foes.
Not all Gazans are foes of Israel. Non-combatants shouldn't be targeted, but by your logic, all Gazans are combatants.
Any proofs?
Is your take really everyone in Palestine supports Hamas? Really? That goes back to my comment about all Russians supporting decades of genocide simply because they're Russian. It's a straight-up ridiculous position to assume every person supports an enemy organization, especially a terrorist organization. You don't need proof of this either because it doesn't take much thought to arrive at the conclusion that not everyone supports terrorism. Plenty of Palestinians are just trying to live their lives, just like plenty of Israelis are trying to live their lives. Neither group wants to die.
What's wrong with ability to leave house full of explosives?
And where are they going to go? The people of Gaza are besieged in Gaza with no way to leave. Never mind that many don't have the means to travel even if they could get out.

Even if they do leave their house and go down the street, Israel is indiscriminately leveling anything that might possibly be related to Hamas. Hell, the engaged the university today because they claimed it was a Hamas training center. I'm not privy to Israeli intelligence and maybe it was a training center, but the optics on it are really bad.
 
but by your logic
Wat? I quoted my own post with opposite.
Is your take really everyone in Palestine supports Hamas
IDK, maybe yes, maybe no.
That goes back to my comment about all Russians supporting decades of genocide simply because they're Russian.
Official RF poll saying that 15% of RF citizens aren't supporting war. Thousands of people were arrested at antiwar protests.
And where are they going to go
Anywhere. Its Palestine, not Ukraine. 18* C at night in October.
 
This is some heavy stuff.

“We can’t flee because anywhere you go, you are bombed,” one neighbor, Khalil Abu Yahia, said. “You need a miracle to survive here.”

By Wednesday night, the number of people who fled their homes reached 340,000 people — roughly 15% of Gaza’s population. Most crowded into U.N.-run schools while others stayed with relatives or even strangers.

Families were cutting down to one meal a day, said Rami Swailem, a 34-year-old lecturer at al-Azhar University, who had 32 relatives sheltering in his home. Water stopped coming to the building two days ago, and they have rationed what’s left in a tank on the roof.

Alaa Younis Abuel-Omrain has been staying in a U.N. school after a strike on her home killed eight members of her family — her mother, aunt, a sister, a brother and his wife and their three children. Most bakeries stopped producing bread for lack of electricity.

“Even if there is food in some areas, we can’t get to it because of strikes,” she said.

On Wednesday, Gaza’s only power station ran out of fuel and shut down, leaving only lights powered by scattered private generators.

Hospitals, overwhelmed by a constant stream of wounded and running out of supplies, have only a few days worth of fuel before their power cuts off, aid officials say.

“Without electricity, hospitals risk turning into morgues,” said Fabrizio Carboni, regional director of the International Committee of the Red Cross. Newborn incubators, kidney dialysis machines, X-ray equipment and more, are all dependent on power, he said.

Ambulance crews carrying bodies to the morgue at Gaza’s biggest hospital, Shifa, found no space left. Dozens of full body bags were lined up in the hospital parking lot. Fourteen health facilities have been damaged in strikes, health officials said Thursday.

With Israel sealing off the territory, the only way in or out is through the crossing with Egypt at Rafah, but Egypt’s Foreign Ministry said Thursday that airstrikes on Rafah have prevented it from operating. Egypt has been trying to convince Israel and the United States to allow aid and fuel through the crossing.

Israel is employing a new tactic of leveling whole neighborhoods, rather than just individual buildings. Hecht, the military spokesman, said targeting decisions were based on intelligence on locations being used by Hamas and that civilians were warned.

“Right now, we are focused on taking out their senior leadership,” Hecht said. The military said strikes have hit Hamas’ elite Nukhba forces, including command centers used by the fighters in Saturday’s attack, and the home of a senior Hamas naval operative used to store weapons.
 
Israel has effectively taken 2 million civilians hostage as response to Hamas taking 150 hostages.

We probably shouldn't gloss over Israeli strikes also kill UN aid workers in Gaza.

Hamas is committing atrocities. Israel is committing atrocities. And the ones suffering are civilians. The longer this goes on, the worse the optics look for Israel. The last time they responded with this type of force was 2014 I believe and social media wasn't quite the monstrosity it is now. And it won't get better as more people bring up issues in the occupied West Bank.

@Dennisch - IDF would have confirmed the baby beheading if they could; it's exactly the kind of smoking gun they want in Hamas' hands to justify their response.
 
How can they do this and exterminate terrorists/ammo? Like JDAM isn't asking about age or idealogy.
Because there's no such thing as a weapon that's more discriminatory than JDAMs?

You should tell America this, they'll be eager to know that the entire drone program has been a massive waste of time.
Anywhere. Its Palestine, not Ukraine. 18* C at night in October.
You're just being daft now. Even within Gaza, it's incredibly crowded. Wikipedia says ~2 million people in 365 square kilometers. There is nowhere to go in Gaza that you aren't going to be surrounded by other Gazans, any of whom are as likely to be Israeli targets as any other.

The temperature isn't the problem. The fact that there is literally nowhere to go to get significantly away from what's going on is.
 
This morning we are seeing the plight of the Palestinian people laid bare as Israel gives Northern Gazans 24 hours to evacuate, but Hamas have told the 1.1 million people who live there to stay where they are.

Hamas have been preparing for this moment for years, and are relying on the fact that their personnel, weaponry, ammunition and infrastructure are literally shielded from any potential Israeli assault by the people of Gaza.

Hamas are the immovable object, and Israel the unstoppable machine - we are about to find out what happens when these two things collide. What is happening in Gaza right now is already harrowing, but Hamas still have it within their power to stop a fully fledged Israeli assault on Northern Gaza - declare a ceasefire and return Israeli hostages - but they will not do either of these things. They will not even act to protect their own citizens.

Hamas declared war on Israel on Saturday in the most unspeakable and horrific ways, and they will fight Israel to the death, even if it means sacrificing their own innocent civilians. Israel have been forced to act by Hamas' disgusting brutality, but they must tread as carefully as they can, with hundreds of thousands of lives at stake - and yet, if Israel back down, Hamas will just rear its very ugly head again and again.

Best case scenario right now is that the international community can compel Israel to allow humanitarian corridors to open, allow aid, food, water etc. to get to the people of Gaza, and to limit their attacks on known Hamas infrastructure and weaponry. Israel, at the very least, are engaging with the international community, as are the Palestinian Authority - but Hamas cannot be engaged. No-one can appeal to their better nature because they don't have a better nature; they want Israel to have blood on their hands, and thus they will do precisely nothing to help avoid a humanitarian catastrophe, like help evacuate those who can't evacuate themselves.
 
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Because there's no such thing as a weapon that's more discriminatory than JDAMs?
Soldier with M16 can distinguish between child and man with gun. Israel don't want their soliders to risk there lifes while making choices(yet).
How do you think Israel gaining intel?
There is nowhere to go in Gaza
Its lie. Israel publicly telling where bomb will fall. Half of Gaza isn't effected.
 
It seems that a army of trolls had their fun last night as most, if not all, posts and links seem to have disappeared.

And this was just dropped over Northern Gaza, visible on the Reuters live stream.

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Today is the call for anger from Hamas, who called for action everywhere. A teacher have just been murdered in France. Murdered said "Allah Akbar".
 
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As does Israel.
It's really entirely in the hands of Israel.


U.S. is trying to work with Egypt and Israel to open the crossing to allow Gaza residents to go into Egypt. Israel should really just stop their genocidal campaign, but I guess this is a fair alternative since they won't, and the international community just doesn't care. What I feel bad about with this idea is that Israel will not allow Palestinians to return to Gaza or Israel afterwards. Egypt will be taking in a huge refugee population and will have to keep them or move them somewhere else in the world. Historically Israel has never allowed refugee Palestinians to return home even though Israel is their native land.
 
You're just being daft now.
I mean that has been one's tendency.
Such a peaceful religion.
Religion is belief alone--delusional belief, even--and it is therefore incapable of perpetrating acts of violence or individual rights violations in general.

It's bad enough that you place blame on innocent individuals because of their belief but it's worse that you provide the actual perpetrators with the cover of religion.
 
Religion is belief alone--delusional belief, even--and it is therefore incapable of perpetrating acts of violence or individual rights violations in general.
I'm firmly of the opinion that certain memes, like religion, can motivate violence in humans. I agree with your point that it's up to the person, but Islam means peace and motivates violence.
 
I'm firmly of the opinion that certain memes, like religion, can motivate violence in humans. I agree with your point that it's up to the person, but Islam means peace and motivates violence.
A great many things "motivate violence" (I mean I think that's probably the case but I'd be lying if I said I fully understand what that phrase means) and yet individual agency is required to take specific action to violate rights.

I recently wondered if religions which place emphasis on sexual purity play a role in pedophilia, but I recognize that both religious belief and pedophilia are thought alone and no rights are violated absent action consistent with that thought.
 
They are citizens of enemy state, so it does. Non combatants shouldn't be targeted, if possible.
Perhaps I misunderstand, but what you're saying is that the civilian population of an enemy state is a legitimate, if questionable target, and... No. It's not. Directing attacks against civilians (or using civilians as a shield, for that matter) is how you get a free trip to the Hague, no ifs, no buts.

"Collateral damage" is just that, collateral - you bomb a legitimate target and there's some unlucky civilians around it. Whether the damage being inflicted by Israel on BUAs in the Gaza Strip is collateral or deliberate would be a matter of the ICC - but I think it's an established fact that the ICC will never indict Israeli leaders, no matter how heinous of a crime they may commit.

Yeap, HAMAS is elected government of region. Same, as Putler government in RF.
Care to tell me when the last election in the Gaza strip took place?

Undoubtedly Hamas must enjoy some level of popular support, but let's not pretend Gaza is a functioning democracy and the voice of its inhabitants is heard at an institutional level.
 
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no rights are violated absent action consistent with that thought.
Sure. Thought crimes are not crimes. But it is fair to characterize Islam (and other religions) as violent. They are teachings which actively encourage and reward violence.
 
I'm firmly of the opinion that certain memes, like religion, can motivate violence in humans. I agree with your point that it's up to the person, but Islam means peace and motivates violence.
I suppose it’s a similar argument of Music, Games & Films can lead to violence.

Also a tribal like nature of Religion gives a sense of belonging and this just opens the floodgates for all kinds of bad actors using those vulnerable to become extremist and commit actions they wouldn’t otherwise normally commit if surrounded by more good actors.

It’s a gateway to violence but not it’s main cause. I personally would be happy if there was no religion in the world but humans will human and find something else to exert control over one another.

For me this whole mess was caused by two controlling governments / elected rulers and can be stopped by them too, however things escalated so quickly I don’t see either side backing down and ending this until one group is all but destroyed and consequences be damned.

In the meantime innocent civilians are paying the price whether complicit or not.
 
Sure. Thought crimes are not crimes. But it is fair to characterize Islam (and other religions) as violent. They are teachings which actively encourage and reward violence.
So they encourage and reward violence. I can easily wrap my head around that. But religion itself is incapable of violence and so it can't be violent. It's not real, however desperately the delusional need it to be.

People are violent. Indeed people are violent for all sorts of reasons.
 
I suppose it’s a similar argument of Music, Games & Films can lead to violence.
These usually aren't promising you eternal life after death.

Why do they feel the imperious need to do this?

I'd wager anger over the visibility of Israeli suffering while Palestinian suffering has often been sidelined. The frustration that whenever Hamas killed a few Israel soldiers, Israel would level buildings in Gaza and kill hundreds. Not that removing those flyers is justified but there has been a history of bias and sympathy for quite a while.
 
These usually aren't promising you eternal life after death.
Promise me I won't know pain, suffering, hardship, or loss in life and I still won't harm another individual who hasn't first sought to harm me.
 
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