Israel - Palestine discussion thread
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Danoff
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It was unclear, and people don't like when that sort of thing even gets approached.
...and children. Current reports are hundreds of them.
I can also imagine the feelings of Israelis rights now, and Gazans - civilians minding their own business have been killed in both areas. In Israel, civilians were killed on purpose. In Gaza, civilians are killed and it might as well have been on purpose for all the care that has been taken to avoid it. Israel is not just bombing civilians, they're cutting off their water and supplies to force them to suffer - this is based on the idea that the terrorists will take pity on their neighbors and hand over hostages. We all know the terrorists are ready for their neighbors to starve or otherwise die for the cause. So this is intentional suffering inflicted on others by Israel (and Hamas).
If the Ukrainians accidentally hit your house, it is an accident. An accident is not what is happening in Israel and Gaza today.
Hamas should take some of the blame, and Israel needs to take some of the blame.
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Unfortunately, there are two extreme ideologies at play. You have Hamas who will stop at nothing to inflict suffering on Israelis and believes Israel should not exist. And you have the far right wing views of Netanyahu who more or less sees Palestinians as sub humans who's suffering is perfectly justified.
Now, with those two leading the way, there ain't going to be any peace whatsoever moving forward.
Now, with those two leading the way, there ain't going to be any peace whatsoever moving forward.
Danoff
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What if you don't live in an ammo depot and you're just a kid who goes to school in gaza?
Foes? You mean Gaza?
'Water apartheid': How Israel weaponises water in the Gaza Strip
On World Water Day, the international community must not forget Palestinians living under Israeli occupation whose access to clean water is severely restricted
www.middleeasteye.net
Israel controls the water to Gaza because they want to be able to shut it off.
Danoff
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...uh... like what?
So the kid should die for having the wrong parents?
Israel set it up this way, quite on purpose. Maybe you think people are stupid for living in that spot, under the thumb of Israel and among religious fanatics. Certainly if I could pick anywhere to live in the world I would not pick Gaza. But not everyone gets to just pick wherever they want to live. Some of us get that kind of control, and it is wonderful to have.
Just like before, it's not great to conflate "foes" with "gaza" given that there are definitely people in gaza who are not terrorists. This kind of blanket generalization across a population is always wrong, and it happens to be the root of this particular conflict.
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inCloud
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Leave place at any cost
What Israel could do with that? I can't see good answer
There are border. Water is on Israel part. Thats it. How its happen is different question.
Its complicated topic. People are stupid for living on pile of HAMAS rockets, I can't blame anyone who lives in agressor-state, for obvious reasons.
No one saying opposite. But Gaza under control of HAMAS and in war with Israel.
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Yeah that's literally not possible right now. Even US citizens can't get out of Gaza at the moment because Israel destroyed the crossing into Egypt yesterday.
And guess who drew that border up? Israel. Same thing with the West Bank except Israel actively occupies that region and exploits it by pulling resources out of it and dumping waste into it.
A complicated topic that you want to comically simplify.
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Multiple countries are banning pro-Palestinian protests
www.reuters.com
www.reuters.com
www.reuters.com
Having a hard time finding examples of the international community having anything resembling a helpful response. Thankfully this isn't allowed in the U.S. for all of our faults, government banning free speech is typically not one of them, but there is a lot more complicated conversation that can be had surrounding that with regards protests, especially from 2020.
France uses teargas on banned pro-Palestinian rally as Macron calls for calm
French police used teargas and water cannon to break up a banned rally in support of the Palestinian people in Paris on Thursday, as President Emmanuel Macron urged the French to remain united and refrain from bringing the Israel-Hamas conflict home.
'From the river to the sea' prompts Vienna to ban pro-Palestinian protest
Vienna police on Wednesday banned a pro-Palestinian protest due to coincide with a pro-Israel event after Saturday's attack by Hamas, citing the fact the phrase "from the river to the sea" was mentioned in invitations and characterising it as a call to violence.
Australia police says pro-Palestinian protest plans 'unauthorised'
Australian police said on Wednesday a pro-Palestinian protest scheduled for the weekend in Sydney will be an "unauthorised" activity, and it would set up a task force after reports of alleged anti-Semitism in a rally earlier this week.
Having a hard time finding examples of the international community having anything resembling a helpful response. Thankfully this isn't allowed in the U.S. for all of our faults, government banning free speech is typically not one of them, but there is a lot more complicated conversation that can be had surrounding that with regards protests, especially from 2020.
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Hamas' tactic of "volunteering" Palestinian civilians for martyrdom is working a treat.
Likud's tactic of vapourising anything not Israeli is working a treat.
If peace is the goal, crimes against humanity isn't going to get either side there.
Likud's tactic of vapourising anything not Israeli is working a treat.
If peace is the goal, crimes against humanity isn't going to get either side there.
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Israel has been here many times before, and unfortunately each time they tackle Hamas or other groups that are hell-bent on attacking Israel from Gaza, they are basically forced to stop because of the humanitarian consequences of these combatants using the entire Gazan population as a shield. Hamas then regroup and come back stronger, and the cycle has repeated until Hamas had the capability to do what they did on Saturday.
Saturday's horrific assaults by Hamas have laid bare the fact that they are not only capable of the most heinous and sickening violence - torturing and slaughtering innocent men, women, children and babies, beheading people, burning people alive - but are capable of doing so on a previously unimaginable scale. What's more, Hamas expect that Israel's response will eventually be tempered by the humanitarian situation in Gaza.
I think, however, that this attack by Hamas is a watershed moment - that Hamas' shocking actions have broken what was left of Israeli patience with assaults from Gaza - and rams home the point in the most brutal way imaginable that past failures to deal with the festering sore that is Hamas-run Gaza has led to this terrible outcome - an atrocity on a par with the most terrible war crimes ever committed in modern history.
I reckon that Israel will now seek to dissolve Gaza as we know it. The problem being debated above is precisely that it isn't possible to fight Hamas in Gaza without a horrendous amount of collateral damage because they are so deeply engrained there, and purposefully so in order to make a full retaliation by Israel both diplomatically difficult and morally highly questionable. In the coming days, Gazans will have to either flee to Egypt, or be shipped out to the West Bank or neighbouring states who agree to take them, by whatever humanitarian corridors and parties Israel permits. And then Gaza as we know it today will be destroyed.
It is, of course, imperative that Israel take the necessary steps to save the lives of as many innocent people as possible and permit humanitarian aid, allow the border with Egypt to operate, and to take part in negotiations on humanitarian corridors to the West Bank and neighbouring countries, but Israel will likely not stop until Hamas have been totally driven out of the region and their infrastructure completely dismantled.
The US and the rest of the international community that supports Israel will ratchet up the pressure on Israel in the comings days to mitigate the humanitarian cost of Hamas' attack on Israel, but so long as Israeli hostages remain in the hands of Hamas, I don't expect Israel to change tack. But by taking so many innocent people as hostages, Hamas have handed Israel leverage (if not quite carte blanche) to do whatever it takes to clear Gaza of Hamas.
Saturday's horrific assaults by Hamas have laid bare the fact that they are not only capable of the most heinous and sickening violence - torturing and slaughtering innocent men, women, children and babies, beheading people, burning people alive - but are capable of doing so on a previously unimaginable scale. What's more, Hamas expect that Israel's response will eventually be tempered by the humanitarian situation in Gaza.
I think, however, that this attack by Hamas is a watershed moment - that Hamas' shocking actions have broken what was left of Israeli patience with assaults from Gaza - and rams home the point in the most brutal way imaginable that past failures to deal with the festering sore that is Hamas-run Gaza has led to this terrible outcome - an atrocity on a par with the most terrible war crimes ever committed in modern history.
I reckon that Israel will now seek to dissolve Gaza as we know it. The problem being debated above is precisely that it isn't possible to fight Hamas in Gaza without a horrendous amount of collateral damage because they are so deeply engrained there, and purposefully so in order to make a full retaliation by Israel both diplomatically difficult and morally highly questionable. In the coming days, Gazans will have to either flee to Egypt, or be shipped out to the West Bank or neighbouring states who agree to take them, by whatever humanitarian corridors and parties Israel permits. And then Gaza as we know it today will be destroyed.
It is, of course, imperative that Israel take the necessary steps to save the lives of as many innocent people as possible and permit humanitarian aid, allow the border with Egypt to operate, and to take part in negotiations on humanitarian corridors to the West Bank and neighbouring countries, but Israel will likely not stop until Hamas have been totally driven out of the region and their infrastructure completely dismantled.
The US and the rest of the international community that supports Israel will ratchet up the pressure on Israel in the comings days to mitigate the humanitarian cost of Hamas' attack on Israel, but so long as Israeli hostages remain in the hands of Hamas, I don't expect Israel to change tack. But by taking so many innocent people as hostages, Hamas have handed Israel leverage (if not quite carte blanche) to do whatever it takes to clear Gaza of Hamas.
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Danoff
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All of gaza is being treated as your "building full of ammo". So no.
If they cannot? Kill the child? From what I can tell Israel has done so by the hundreds since the Hamas attack.
No. Citizens of an enemy state are not your foe. The moral standing of any given individual of Gaza is not defaulted to the worst terrorist to have hailed from Hamas.
I hope they are right.
So far this isn't working out.
If the cause is just, "whatever it takes" should not be permitted. This is the reason Hamas is condemned in the first place.
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inCloud
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Ukraine already killing combatants in my city, it could be justified. Yes, I am citizen of enemy state and by default enemy of Ukraine. I am not combatant and Ukrainians shouldn't kill me(if possible). If my home becomes ammo depot or some high ranked combatant will be at my place, its also could be justified.
Excuse me?
Joey D
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You blanketly said all Gazans are a member of an enemy state and thus foes. By that logic, being Russian makes you an enemy and you should be targeted whether you are a combatant or not. Thousands of people in Gaza have nothing to do with Hamas and they're being targeted and killed by the Israelis, just as thousands in Israel have nothing ill will against Palestine and they're being targeted as well.
I'm just pointing out how ridiculous your logic is. I mean if all people who don't support a war should get out, why are you still in Russia? You said it yourself, you can't blame anyone for living in an enemy state. Guess what? You live in an enemy state that supports war crimes, killing civilians, and genocide. So are you OK with that or not? Based on your logic and arguments, you would be OK with it.
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Just a reminder concerning gaza; the median age is 18, that is how low the life expectancy is there. Around 50% (or about 1 million) of the population is children. That is a lot of people unable to speak up or defend themselves. That is also a lot of people that can and likely will be radicalized towards violence in the future.
Fighting terrorism is something Israel will never stop doing unless they are willing to get into some absolutely horrific acts of violence that will force the international community to finally shun them for good. The United States can confirm this, we have been fighting this war for 20+ years now and its accomplished absolutely nothing.
Working with the Palestinians to better their living conditions, give them freedom & rights, and most importantly justice, is the only way forward towards peace. Work with them to allow the IDF into Gaza to find and out hamas, show them a good faith effort towards peace, and give them justice by holding bad actors on the Israeli side accountable.
Israel has one of the most advance intelligence & police forces in the world. If they can't figure out how to handle terrorists within their own borders then that is their problem, not the Palestinians. And that makes it all the more obvious that this isn't about justice, but revenge.
I also reject the notion that Israel is blowing up targets housing hamas. There has been no evidence of hamas terrorist being killed in these attacks, only innocent people. You would think Palestinians, and U.N. officials in Gaza (17 U.N. people have been killed so far) would be super quick to point that out, but no there's been nothing. We've only seen pictures of children, and innocent adults being killed. The whole human shield thing, and justifying blowing up certain buildings, quite frankly is a racist trope and used to justify war crimes because it's one of the few exceptions the U.N. makes when it comes to bombing civilian targets.
Fighting terrorism is something Israel will never stop doing unless they are willing to get into some absolutely horrific acts of violence that will force the international community to finally shun them for good. The United States can confirm this, we have been fighting this war for 20+ years now and its accomplished absolutely nothing.
Working with the Palestinians to better their living conditions, give them freedom & rights, and most importantly justice, is the only way forward towards peace. Work with them to allow the IDF into Gaza to find and out hamas, show them a good faith effort towards peace, and give them justice by holding bad actors on the Israeli side accountable.
Israel has one of the most advance intelligence & police forces in the world. If they can't figure out how to handle terrorists within their own borders then that is their problem, not the Palestinians. And that makes it all the more obvious that this isn't about justice, but revenge.
I also reject the notion that Israel is blowing up targets housing hamas. There has been no evidence of hamas terrorist being killed in these attacks, only innocent people. You would think Palestinians, and U.N. officials in Gaza (17 U.N. people have been killed so far) would be super quick to point that out, but no there's been nothing. We've only seen pictures of children, and innocent adults being killed. The whole human shield thing, and justifying blowing up certain buildings, quite frankly is a racist trope and used to justify war crimes because it's one of the few exceptions the U.N. makes when it comes to bombing civilian targets.
inCloud
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Yeap, HAMAS is elected government of region. Same, as Putler government in RF.
I didn't say that.
I didn't say that.
I am not ok with aggressive war, war crimes or genocide. I am not supporting my government. Its my home, I don't want to leave it, yet I do if its becomes too dangerous. Its called responsibility for you own life. Everyone should try.
FPV MIC
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That one in Australia was unauthorised, not banned. Two different thingsMultiple countries are banning pro-Palestinian protests
France uses teargas on banned pro-Palestinian rally as Macron calls for calm
French police used teargas and water cannon to break up a banned rally in support of the Palestinian people in Paris on Thursday, as President Emmanuel Macron urged the French to remain united and refrain from bringing the Israel-Hamas conflict home.'From the river to the sea' prompts Vienna to ban pro-Palestinian protest
Vienna police on Wednesday banned a pro-Palestinian protest due to coincide with a pro-Israel event after Saturday's attack by Hamas, citing the fact the phrase "from the river to the sea" was mentioned in invitations and characterising it as a call to violence.Australia police says pro-Palestinian protest plans 'unauthorised'
Australian police said on Wednesday a pro-Palestinian protest scheduled for the weekend in Sydney will be an "unauthorised" activity, and it would set up a task force after reports of alleged anti-Semitism in a rally earlier this week.
Having a hard time finding examples of the international community having anything resembling a helpful response. Thankfully this isn't allowed in the U.S. for all of our faults, government banning free speech is typically not one of them, but there is a lot more complicated conversation that can be had surrounding that with regards protests, especially from 2020.
Here (∀nsʇɹɐlᴉɐ) you have to provide seven days notice for protests if you're going to use public roads or places, which didn't happen in this instance, so the Feds can make sure two opposing sides aren't organising protests at the same place at the same time. It's a safety thing (according to the Feds).
I don't support what went on at that rally in the slightest. It was pretty disgusting IMHO.
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Fair point! And i'll be one of the first to call out protests of any kind that call for violence or hate of another group. That won't help anyone, especially not the people that a protest is trying to speak for. If people want to protest anything over this, go after the Israeli government.That one in Australia was unauthorised, not banned. Two different things
Here (∀nsʇɹɐlᴉɐ) you have to provide seven days notice for protests if you're going to use public roads or places, which didn't happen in this instance, so the Feds can make sure two opposing sides aren't organising protests at the same place at the same time. It's a safety thing (according to the Feds).
I don't support what went on at that rally in the slightest. It was pretty disgusting IMHO.
Let the protests happen though, and the public will determine on their own if what is being said has any merit or should outright be dismissed. Governments attempting to curb free speech is always a bad thing.
Joey D
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This you?
If so, then yes, you did say that.
Guess what? There are people in Palestine who are not OK with what Hamas is doing, nor do they support the government. Gaza is their home and they don't want to leave (never mind that even if they wanted to, they couldn't). Taking responsibility for your own life is a little difficult when you have precisely zero way to get out of the situation you're in. The best they can hope for is that the Israelis don't decide their apartment building might have a few rockets under it, assuming they don't die due to lack of water or adequate medical care first.
I'm not saying you are for what Russia is doing. I don't know you. I'm just saying if you apply the logic that you are using with Gaza to Russia, it makes it seem like you should either be getting out of the country or accepting that you're an enemy. It's completely flawed. There's no way every Russian is for the decades of genocide the Russian government has done or the untold number of war crimes they've committed, so why should the Palestinians be any different?
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Those sources all originated from one single person
Everyone who has said it has backtracked, including President Biden. The IDF still won't say it happened either. And honestly it's not important that it did or not, its still a sick and heinous crime (killing children). The hamas soldiers who committed the acts of killing civilians have pretty much all been killed at this point.
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