Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Michael88]

What is the world looking like when my children are my age. I dread it to be honest.

Waves and waves of refugees are flooding Europe. The social system is on its way to collapse. One part of the world is burning, the other one is drowning. And if it isn't burning or flooding, people are slaughtering each other over religion, or what they claim to be their rightful lands.

What is the world coming to.

It has always been like that, just study some history, the world has always been a burning stinky mess and today is still the best time to be alive than ever. Back in the day people died en masse everywhere from simple infections, appendix or at childbirth, let alone all the wars. I mean 30 years war? 100 years war? Plagues? I know its sounds weird but this is still the best time we humans have ever had.

Lately we've been trying pretty damn hard to change this though.

 

[Keef]

but rejects any move to set up safe corridors for refugees fleeing the enclave

It's almost universal that Arab countries reject Palestinian refugees. There is a lot of historical precedent for doing so.

@Danoff, a lot of other people, and even the US government keep saying that Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people, implying that Palestinians at large don't support them. I'm not so sure about that. For several decades, palestinian refugees have birthed several movements which have done nothing but alienate them in the region. Israel's hands are just as dirty. These people - not their governments, not their organizations - the people themselves want to eradicate each other.

That's not a problem we can solve on the internet. Telling crazy people to play nice is a ridiculous waste of time.

 

[omgitsbees]

When you see really overwhelming acts of violence, it can feel really hopeless, especially since we essentially can do nothing to stop it. But truthfully this is one event happening in a tiny part of the world. Overall, the state of the world and freedom is better than it has ever been at any point in history. If you're doom scrolling this conflict, now might be a good time to take a break. Nothing going on is going to change because you decided not to keep up to date.

@Danoff, a lot of other people, and even the US government keep saying that Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people, implying that Palestinians at large don't support them. I'm not so sure about that. For several decades, palestinian refugees have birthed several movements which have done nothing but alienate them in the region. Israel's hands are just as dirty. These people - not their governments, not their organizations - the people themselves want to eradicate each other.

That's not a problem we can solve on the internet. Telling crazy people to play nice is a ridiculous waste of time.

There won't be peace until there is also justice for both sides. Heinous acts of violence and treatment towards one another has been going on for so long that peace in this region doesn't seem possible. Both sides continually get extremist individuals leading them and speaking on their behalf, and so the vicious cycle continues. It doesn't have to be that way, but here we are.

 

[inCloud]

I heard a similar rhetoric somewhere. Oh, right, that pretty much what Putin and his Kremlin scumbags are saying regarding their bombing of the Ukrainian cities.

Do you just compare Ukrainian army and HAMAS? Really?

Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people

Big chunk of Palestine is somewhat peaceful community.

 

[Danoff]

These people - not their governments, not their organizations - the people themselves want to eradicate each other.

What do you mean these people?

I understand your point about the culture of the two regions being intensely violent and dehumanizing toward each other. To the point where many within each population see the others as some kind of monstrous creature to be exterminated. I do understand that point.

I still will not group Gazans or Israelis into a single bucket and wave my hands about what they all deserve. Because that is the root of this conflict in the first place. It is very likely that the region contains an unusually large spike in would-be and/or actual murderers. If you could make map of the world and color code it with percent of the population who would or actually have murdered innocent people, I think this particular part of the world would light up.

That problem is not solved by killing more innocent people. By attacking children, or brand new adults, or people just trying to survive the day. And I'm not willing to condemn them all.

 

[omgitsbees]

Do you just compare Ukrainian army and HAMAS? Really?

No, that is not at all what they said.

 

[sturk0167]

News related post but the Unity Government of Israel just had their first press conference: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...8d470000?liveBlogItemId=1010843993#1010843993

It was a lot of propaganda, and trying to justify their heinous acts of violence.



Some stuff I wanted to respond to. Netanyahu says the fate is Israel hangs in the balance. What evidence though? He doesn't cite any examples of how the state of Israel might cease to exist anytime soon. Israel has secured its borders with Gaza, and stopped all of the hamas terrorists that got out of gaza. Sounds like everything is okay now, so i'm still wondering why bombing hospitals, homes, and religious targets is necessary.

The claim of ISIS being eliminated is especially weird, I have very bad news for him; https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/the-state-of-al-qaeda-and-isis-in-2023

Isreal has all of the agency here, they could do any number of things like negotiate peace talks in good faith, something they have yet to try in all of the time they have been a country.

Negotiate peace talks? With the animals that that think Allah wants them to saw the heads off of children.
No, Sir. Extermination is what's called for.

 

[Danoff]

Negotiate peace talks? With the animals that that think Allah wants them to saw the heads off of children.
No, Sir. Extermination is what's called for.

 

[inCloud]

No, that is not at all what they said.

He compared statements of Israel gov that leveling civilian buildings infested with terrorists and rhetorics of Putler about imaginary nazis in civilian buildings. Its even more stupid, than how I saw it first.

racist

Creature that murdered children by beheaded him isn't human being by my standards too. I am with this "racist" guy, too.

There aren't any one to negotiate in Gaza. Its brainwashed civilians and middle east version of my neighbours-orks.

 

[omgitsbees]

Creature that murdered children by beheaded him isn't human being by my standards too. I am with this "racist" guy, too.

There aren't any one to negotiate in Gaza. Its brainwashed civilians and middle east version of my neighbours-orks.

I can't believe I have to explain the obvious here but... calling Palestinians / Arabs animals, is playing exactly into what the Israeli government wants, and justifies their genocidal campaign against the Palestinians. By not calling them human beings who can be reasoned with and have agency over their actions, but instead dangerous animals, we are playing into a very dangerous white supremacy talking point. Saying you are with the racist guy, is not the look you think it is.

 

[Danoff]

Creature that murdered children by beheaded him isn't human being by my standards too.

If by human being you mean has rights, I'm with you also. But the problem is the insinuation that everyone in the region fits this description. I think you probably would not like all Russians to be characterized as orcs. That's the pushback here.

There aren't any one to negotiate in Gaza. Its brainwashed civilians and middle east version of my neighbours-orks.

Probably dehumanizing "brainwashed" people isn't the way to go. I see too many "brainwashed" people to dehumanize them all. Memes are powerful, and religion is among the most powerful.

 

[sturk0167]

I can't believe I have to explain the obvious here but...

Here's the problem: Palestinians and Hamas are not the same thing.
Palestinians are mostly regular folks, like you and I.
Hamas are psychopaths, funded by Iranians to inflict terror on the Israelis.
If their idea of righteousness is to upload a video of an Israeli grandmother being killed to her Facebook account, for her friend and family to see, they deserve whatever the Israeli military sees fit for them.

 

[omgitsbees]

Israeli's and the international community need to hold Netanyahu responsible for this mess, he is not entirely to blame for all of it, but his leadership has been absolutely garbage and has done nothing to keep Israeli's safe.



Netanyahu is completely unhinged.

 

[Danoff]

Here's the problem: Palestinians and Hamas are not the same thing.
Palestinians are mostly regular folks, like you and I.
Hamas are psychopaths, funded by Iranians to inflict terror on the Israelis.
If their idea of righteousness is to upload a video of an Israeli grandmother being killed to her Facebook account, for her friend and family to see, they deserve whatever the Israeli military sees fit for them.

Here's the problem, not everyone in Gaza is a terrorist psychopath.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Creature that murdered children by beheaded him isn't human being by my standards too. I am with this "racist" guy, too.

... but you are okay with children being bombed, starved, deprived of water and other basic human needs, by a nation that wants their land?

Typical ******* Russian!

Obviously I don't mean that personally, I'm just trying to illustrate how a simple reactionary response for "EXTERMINATING" an entire ethnic group is totally moronic and often hypocritical. Justifying extermination because of extermination is one of the most depressing things about modern war, aside from the casualties at the time it promotes decades of hate that ruins lives for generations. Violence begets violence, and kids learn that from their parents because of ******* bone headed eye for an eye mind sets.

 

[sturk0167]

Here's the problem, not everyone in Gaza is a terrorist psychopath.

Yeah, that's what I said.
I hope the Palestinian citizens remain safe.
Hamas should be eradicated. Their actions jeopardize the people of Palestine.

 

[Danoff]

Yeah, that's what I said.
I hope the Palestinian citizens remain safe.
Hamas should be eradicated. Their actions jeopardize the people of Palestine.

Great.

You can see how the remark below would lead people to think that you were in favor of extermination of the people of gaza right? You didn't get very specific here.

Negotiate peace talks? With the animals that that think Allah wants them to saw the heads off of children.
No, Sir. Extermination is what's called for.

 

[sturk0167]

Great.

You can see how the remark below would lead people to think that you were in favor of extermination of the people of gaza right? You didn't get very specific here.

True. Hamas are the people I have a problem with.
Palestinian citizens have been put in a terrible place by the terrorists.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I disagree with @sturk0167 almost universally, but I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt that the "that think Allah wants them to saw the heads off of children" was an explicit identification of the people who do that (AKA terrorists), not all the people in that region.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Palestinian citizens have been put in a terrible place by the terrorists.

They were put in that terrible place by Bolivia, Brazil, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Guatemala, Haiti, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela, Belgium, Denmark, Iceland, Luxembourg, France, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, the ex-Soviet Union including Ukraine and Belarus, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Liberia, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, the Philippines, Canada and... the USA, with a starring guest appearance by the British (who didn't vote, but were mostly responsible for ******* off when things got difficult....) when those countries all voted to give Palestinian territory to the Jews to form Israel, against Palestine's will. It's literally like the British proposing that we divvy up the USA in order to give it to China and ex-SSR states without even asking any Americans, and then painting Americans as terrorists when their armed and organised militias resist!

 

[omgitsbees]

It cannot be overstated that hamas is not the only vile entity here as well. Netanyahu is an extremely corrupt politician that is fanning the flames and manipulating the situation in order to create war. It is very important that we understand as well that the two are interlinked with one another, and are secretly allies. We don't even know how deep this corruption goes either. There are reports from Egypt that Netanyahu knew the attack was coming and chose to ignore it. It doesn't help that the Gaza border was left defenseless just hours before the attack as well, in order to deal with a situation in the West Bank.

Another concept implodes: Israel can’t be managed by a criminal defendant

***

www.haaretz.com

How depressing and upsetting it is today to recall Benjamin Netanyahu’s arrogance under interrogation about Case 2000, one of the three corruption cases against the prime minister. “This is classified, don’t let it leak, okay?” he said, flattering the police investigators with the magic lure of security secrets. And then he explained his doctrine regarding Hamas and Hezbollah.

“We have neighbors,” he said, “who are our bitter enemies ... I send them messages all the time ... these days, right now ... I mislead them, destabilize them, mock them, and them hit them over the head.” The suspect then continued his lecture: “It’s impossible to reach an agreement with them ... Everyone knows this, but we control the height of the flames.”

In order for Israel to move forward from this, it is important that they get rid of Netanyahu.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

They were put in that terrible place by Bolivia, Brazil, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Guatemala, Haiti, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela, Belgium, Denmark, Iceland, Luxembourg, France, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, the ex-Soviet Union including Ukraine and Belarus, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Liberia, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, the Philippines, Canada and... the USA, with a starring guest appearance by the British (who didn't vote, but were mostly responsible for ******* off when things got difficult....) when those countries all voted to give Palestinian territory to the Jews to form Israel, against Palestine's will. It's literally like the British proposing that we divvy up the USA in order to give it to China and ex-SSR states without even asking any Americans, and then painting Americans as terrorists when their armed and organised militias resist!

It should also be noted that literally every country in the region ALSO voted against the partitioning (which included a pretty vast array of ethnicities that weren't Arab - pretty much every people with good food said NO), which of course was discarded by the west.

It was Britain's plan since the 1840s to...surprise...make money for themselves and expand their sphere of influence

The soil and climate of Palestine are singularly adapted to the growth of produce required for the exigencies of Great Britain; the finest cotton may be obtained in almost unlimited abundance; silk and madder are the staple of the country, and olive oil is now, as it ever was, the very fatness of the land. Capital and skill are alone required: the presence of a British officer, and the increased security of property which his presence will confer, may invite them from these islands to the cultivation of Palestine; and the Jews, who will betake themselves to agriculture in no other land, having found, in the English consul, a mediator between their people and the Pacha, will probably return in yet greater numbers, and become once more the husbandmen of Judaea and Galilee.

-Lord Ashley, Earl of Shaftesbury

 

[Azuremen]

Israel has arguably the best intelligence apparatus in the world and yet completely failed regarding these attacks. That raises a lot of questions and seems there is going to be follow up on how it failed so tremendously.

Israel has a long history of spinning media to further the "Us vs Them" dialogue that is typical of nationalism. Hamas is awful but Israel is taking the old idea of we're civilization and they're savages to a new level. And that's before considering how much Britain has mucked about in that region for it's own interests.

On the beheading babies bit - it's attributed to a single tweet that the journalist deleted because it was poorly worded and based on hearsay. IDF hasn't confirmed the babies bit and it's 100% in their interest to do so because it will further "justify" the Israeli response. There is propaganda and sensationalism on both sides, but the West (particularly the US) has a heavy bias for the Israeli side.

Gaza is locked at the moment - American-Palestinians aren't able to leave Gaza. There is concern for food and supplies making it to the 2+ million civilians in Gaza.

 

[omgitsbees]

On the beheading babies bit - it's attributed to a single tweet that the journalist deleted because it was poorly worded and based on hearsay. IDF hasn't confirmed the babies bit and it's 100% in their interest to do so because it will further "justify" the Israeli response. There is propaganda and sensationalism on both sides, but the West (particularly the US) has a heavy bias for the Israeli side.

Even president Biden is spreading this lie

 

[ScottPuss20]

I don't think the Israeli soldiers murder, rape and behead helpless civilians. Just think about that before you start defending the Palestinians of Hamas. There's an alarming amount of hate towards the Jewish community here in Australia, which I simply don't understand.

 

[omgitsbees]

I don't think the Israeli soldiers murder, rape and behead helpless civilians. Just think about that before you start defending the Palestinians of Hamas. There's an alarming amount of hate towards the Jewish community here in Australia, which I simply don't understand.

No one has accused the Israeli Defense Force of that. Minus the murder part, that has absolutely happened, we have IDF soldiers on record admitting to this, and even being convicted in Israeli court, and sentenced for it (granted the harshest sentence was 1 month in jail).

As has been continually repeated in this thread, and else where on the internet, it does absolutely nothing to hate the communities as a whole that are involved in this. On the Palestinian side, Hamas is evil, and on the Israeli side, the government is seriously corrupt and shows genocidal ideology. The decisions being made has nothing to do with religion or culture, but corrupt evil individuals acting in a bad faith.

Anyways, for daily news summaries, I have been watching Channel 4 News Youtube channel, they have had some really good reporting that is balanced during this whole thing.

 

[inCloud]

But the problem is the insinuation that everyone in the region fits this description.

Negotiate peace talks? With the animals that that think Allah wants them to saw the heads off of children.

Anyone said that?

but you are okay with children being bombed, starved, deprived of water and other basic human needs, by a nation that wants their land

I am not. Problem is, its not children being bombed, its terrorists using their houses for storing ammunition. And those houses being bombed.

I think you probably would not like all Russians to be characterized as orcs.

But this happens all the time. I am not even mad. And things exploding in my city, because of war. If Ukrainian drone hit my house by mistake or as result of AA work, its not Ukrainians fault. Sure, I don't want any civilians die as result of justified defence actions, but its lesser evil. Terrorists/aggressor should be inprisoned or dead.

In 2017 terrorist exploded bomb in metro in my city. My wife was in that place 30 minutes before this happened. I could imagine feelings of Israeli right now.

 

[Touring Mars]

The Israeli energy minister has tweeted this morning, saying:

“Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home. Humanitarianism for humanitarianism. And no one will preach us morality.”

-

I fear that the scenario playing out in Gaza right now is exactly what Iran and Hamas etc. were aiming for - growing condemnation of Israel for the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza. Meanwhile, the horrific atrocities that Hamas has perpetrated, while not unpunished, are no longer considered part of the equation - it's mostly on Israel now, Hamas and Iran have already got what they wanted, and only stand to gain as Israel look increasingly bad for the unfolding humanitarian catastrophe that their response to Hamas atrocities is creating.

The fact that Hamas would trigger this catastrophe upon the people of Gaza, however, should not be overlooked or forgotten.

 

[inCloud]

growing condemnation of Israel for the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza

EU, most likely, will stop humanitarian aid, too. It doesn't look like anyone sane blame Israel for crisis in Gaza instead of HAMAS.

Its fundamental ****up on Israel side. But victim blaming isn't what should be done.

 

[Dennisch]

The Palestinian ministry of health has declared that the hospitals will run out of fuel to run their generators today.