Israel - Palestine discussion thread

Joey D
the war really just boils down to two countries indiscriminately killing civilians over whose religion is more correct.
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I don't think that's a fair assessment, but I agree with what @Danoff has said.

Israel should hold the moral high ground here, faced with such unconscionable acts of terrorism as those Hamas has perpetrated on a massive scale. But they squander both the moral high ground and with it alot of international sympathy and support for the way they collectively punish the Palestinians.

Granted, it is not easy to attack Hamas when they are virtually indistinguishable from the rest of the Gazan populace, and Gaza is both a cesspit and a fertile breeding ground for Islamic extremism, not helped by the terrible treatment ordinary Gazan's face both at the hands of Hamas and Israel.

Israel are justified in attacking Hamas, and they need to do something about it. But all too often their solution is just more of the same - and if it didn't work before, it isn't going to work now - indeed, destroying half of Gaza is unlikely to make the problem go away; if anything it is only likely to dash any hopes of a negotiated peace for at least another generation.
 
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I agree with both of you. Israel and any other nation that people in that region may want to create are all doomed from the start. That said, the vast majority of governments in the world seem to want Israel to persist.



Wall Street Journal is on the hottest of hot seats right now because not a single government has backed up their claims yet, after several days of potentially scrambling to find a story that fits.
 
Touring Mars
Israel should hold the moral high ground here, faced with such unconscionable acts of terrorism as those Hamas has perpetrated on a massive scale. But they squander both the moral high ground and with it alot of international sympathy and support for the way they collectively punish the Palestinians.
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This is like... the TL;DR of Israel's entire history.

Touring Mars
Granted, it is not easy to attack Hamas when they are virtually indistinguishable from the rest of the Gazan populace, and Gaza is both a cesspit and a fertile breeding ground for Islamic extremism, not helped by the terrible treatment ordinary Gazan's face both at the hands of Hamas and Israel.
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Totally agree, and this is why they need to be smart, careful, constant, and vigilant in their response. Instead, they are the opposite. I think their mindset is basic game theory. I forget the name for this particular game theory strategy. It's not "tit for tat". It's the one where you ratchet the response up past whatever someone does to you. I know it has a name and it's really bugging that I can't figure it out.

Anyway, you'd think they'd learn that it's not working.
 
Ashkelon is being bombarded with rockets as we speak. And as usual the rockets are being launched from the middle of a residential area.

I can see the IDF levelling most of Gaza city and it's surroundings before moving in.
 
Touring Mars
I don't think that's a fair assessment, but I agree with what @Danoff has said.

Israel should hold the moral high ground here, faced with such unconscionable acts of terrorism as those Hamas has perpetrated on a massive scale. But they squander both the moral high ground and with it alot of international sympathy and support for the way they collectively punish the Palestinians.

Granted, it is not easy to attack Hamas when they are virtually indistinguishable from the rest of the Gazan populace, and Gaza is both a cesspit and a fertile breeding ground for Islamic extremism, not helped by the terrible treatment ordinary Gazan's face both at the hands of Hamas and Israel.

Israel are justified in attacking Hamas, and they need to do something about it. But all too often their solution is just more of the same - and if it didn't work before, it isn't going to work now - indeed, destroying half of Gaza is unlikely to make the problem go away; if anything it is only likely to dash any hopes of a negotiated peace for at least another generation.
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The problem is, Israel does some pretty unconscionable things to the Palestinians too. The Israelis are creating an apartheid situation, forcing evictions, killing unarmed civilians, and torturing prisoners. Given that, I get why Hamas is attacking. However, they aren't any better than those they're fighting because they are killing civilians and torturing prisoners too. Hamas just doesn't have the means to enact apartheid or forced evictions, but they're still a terrible group of people.

Israel needs to work towards living peacefully just as much as Hamas and other groups do. Unfortunately, neither side wants that and they end up killing a ton of people because of it. Until Israel makes moves to rectify the situation, they're just as bad as the people they're fighting and don't really have the moral high ground in my opinion.
Danoff
Neither side sees the other side as sufficiently human.
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Which is a massive problem and it all stems from religion. I bet if the people took the time to actually talk to one another, they'd probably see they're more or less the same.
 
Joey D
I bet if the people took the time to actually talk to one another, they'd probably see they're more or less the same.
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"Do you believe in fairy tales that mean you get to kill people and take their land?"
"Yes!"
"OMG, we're like, so the same!"
<gunfire intensifies>
 
Joey D
I bet if the people took the time to actually talk to one another, they'd probably see they're more or less the same.
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You'd hope. Contact (diversity) is the known corrective response to cure dehumanization. In this case though, it would take a long time. This is why I love the famous Bush Jr. speech following 9/11 so much.

"Islam is Peace" Says President

"These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith. And it's important for my fellow Americans to understand that."
georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov

" America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect.

Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That's not the America I know. That's not the America I value."


He gets some stuff wrong in that speech, but to make that speech at that moment was a clinic in how to respond without dehumanizing*. Imagine if Israel made this kind of response instead of bombing a market, schools, and hospital in a knee-jerk response. Instead of bombing a mosque, standing in one.


* I know that some people think that the war in Iraq was some kind of collective punishment, maybe similar to Israel, but it misunderstands what that was about.
 
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Why on Earth would the US even consider the need to put boots on the ground?

The unlimited military budget, decades of basically whatever they wanted design wise from the latest and greatest Western military hardware, their homegrown military industrial complex, don't ask don't tell policy on war crimes, universal conscription and compulsory military reserves until age 40 isn't enough for Israel to repel the people invading from the apartheid state Israel has been imposing for over a decade just because the guy with the binoculars fell asleep over the weekend?
 
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Tornado
Why on Earth would the US even consider the need to put boots on the ground?

The unlimited military budget, decades of basically whatever they wanted design wise from the latest and greatest Western military hardware, their homegrown military industrial complex, don't ask don't tell policy on war crimes, universal conscription and compulsory military reserves until age 40 isn't enough for Israel to repel the people invading from the apartheid state Israel has been imposing for over a decade just because the guy with the binoculars fell asleep over the weekend?
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The U.S. at most appears to be in the area to dissuade other countries from getting involved. But I want to be clear that is entirely speculation on my part. I don't think the U.S. has stated to the public exactly what it is they are doing with their ships, just that they have alerted Israel that they are in the area. Right now it really does just look like a show of force, "If you're not Israel or Palestine then stay out of this if you know what is good for you."
 
Tornado
Why on Earth would the US even consider the need to put boots on the ground?

The unlimited military budget, decades of basically whatever they wanted design wise from the latest and greatest Western military hardware, their homegrown military industrial complex, don't ask don't tell policy on war crimes, universal conscription and compulsory military reserves until age 40 isn't enough for Israel to repel the people invading from the apartheid state Israel has been imposing for over a decade just because the guy with the binoculars fell asleep over the weekend?
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Consider? Because any good strategist "considers" all possible outcomes.

But really we have to feign consideration simply because we've publicly supported Israel one too many times and if we don't then it hampers international trust. To maintain our global hegemony, we have to appear rock solid in terms of international policy. East Asia is in such a precarious situation that we have to appear like the entire globe agrees with the US when it comes to backing nations in existential crisis. If Ukraine wasn't enough evidence that Taiwan will be defended at all costs, we have to maintain that status quo for Israel as well.

Fortunately, Europe and even India seem to agree with us on this occasion.
 
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Okay Biden just addressed the world a moment ago, and confirmed what I suspected in my post about why they had an aircraft carrier there.
 
Milouse
That would probably make front page all over the world.
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The ONLY actual solution to this is to create an alternative option in my mind, which is what happened in 1992. Otherwise you have never ending degrees of stalemate.

Unfortunately the only Israeli who made strides for peace in my lifetime was assassinated by... yep you guessed It, another Israeli.
Who needs Hamas when your own countrymen will kill you just as quick :(
Eunos_Cosmo
This whole episode is very puzzling.

What does Hamas expect out of this? They, I assume, are a largely rational, if extreme group. And no, before you write off Hamas as as simply an irrational terrorist organization, they are also (badly) running a country. They reach the bar for a rational if ideological actor. They wouldn't plan something like this without at least considering the response. And what other scenario could they expect other than making a lot of noise and then getting absolutely ****ing hammered in retaliation. So did they plan this operation in order to accelerate their own demise and nothing else? It just seems implausible.

So who needs this conflict that Palestinians definitely do not?

It's good for Bibi, because he now has a righteous opportunity to conquer at least all of Gaza and put to bed the two-state solution which would see him become basically a mythical figure in the Orthodox community, let alone his own world view. Destroying the Palestinians seems like a life long dream for him, so this is nothing but good news here. So a few thousand Israelis may die, I struggle to see him caring. This is some old testament **** for Netanyahu. Israel does not have expansive borders and guarding the small borders they have is a full time focus for Israeli's security forces. It's basically unbelievable that this happened. However, it strains logic to think that Hamas would do this in some kind of coordination with Bibi, because the only outcome possible was massive retaliation.

It's good for Putin, particularly if the conflict escalates. The US has already sent a carrier group to, at least optics-wise, lend support for Israel. And if the conflict escalates and Israel genuinely needs help, there is zero question in my mind that the US will be there with boots on the ground if needed. Its a huge distraction from Ukraine who is only recently been close with the US. Israel is like a ride together, die together homeboy for life. Israel is already asking for weapons.

It's good for Iran and the IRGC who desperately, desperately need some kind of distraction for domestic issues that are once again boiling over. The Ayatollah's base is smaller and less enthusiastic than it used to be, a conflict with the Islamic Republic's arch foe could plausibly excite them to defend the mullahs at home. The other thing it helpfully does is set back the growing diplomatic ties between Saudi Arabia and Israel which would see Iran increasingly reduced in regional stature, which would be devastating for the ruling class.

My bet is that this was essentially orchestrated by Russia & Iran as a huge smoke screen with multiple objectives and they have each pledged Hamas some kind of hollow incentive...and I suspect that Netanyahu saw it coming and decided the benefits of letting it happen outweighed the costs.

Russia doesn't care about Hamas other than their utility as a distraction
Netanyahu cares a lot about destroying Hamas but is hemmed in by international community from just stomping them out
Iran cares about Hamas as far as Hamas is the enemy of it's enemy and any sustained conflict hurts the normalization of ties between Israel and the Arab world.
Russia needs Iran to help supply them for their war against Ukraine
Iran needs Russia to help them survive domestic and international pressure

Iran gets to hurt Saudi Arabia indirectly and doesn't really care about the outcome for Hamas & the Palestinians. The messier it gets, the better it is for Iran
Russia gets a distraction indirectly by way of western support for Israel, and doesn't give a **** about the outcome for Hamas & the Palestinians
Netanyahu gets to end Palestine.

There's a lot of overlapping and seemingly contradictory motivations here, but I think there is a tacit, if unspoken acceptance that this benefits all three parties.

The losers here, of course, are the Palestinian people and the Israeli people to a lesser extent.
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Hamas know the ONLY thing that Israel can do to respond is enter Gaza. Israel deliberately avoid that as much as they can, despite the impression that may be given, because they know Hamas HIDE in Gaza within the general population. They are calculating that they can either avoid the Israelis when they enter AND/OR kill a lot more when they do.
Hamas ultimately don't care about what happens to Gaza residents - they're just going to be "collateral damage". They're whole reason d'etre is to kill Israelis and try to end the state of Israel. AT ANY COST.
Sadly a lot more civilians are going to die on both sides, it seems.

However, here's an interesting consideration - in WW2 200,000 French resistance rose up when D Day launched. And they weren't known for being kind to civilians in a number of cases. See the recent story of a Frenchman who finally opened up about his part in the massacre of unarmed German prisoners, which was ordered by the English command. They drew lots over which of them would shoot the unarmed female prisoner. He refused to take part by his account. In war, the moral high ground can be quite often forgotten about.
Shahar
Not a fan of his to say the least, but the reality is probably much more complex and I think it will be best to wait until the official investigation report to know the details.

Btw you guys probably don't know but the attack was done exactly 50 years (and 1 day) after the Yom Kipur war started, the most disastrous of Israel's wars. Israel's intelligence didn't anticipate the war and Israel was caught by complete surprise. As a result 2000+ soldiers died. The date of this attack is probably not coincidental.
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The significance of that date and the fact this has been planned over some lengthy time period, means there's no way it was a coincidence.
Danoff
I'm aware of these things. I predicted that Israel would act with insufficient care, because it's what they do. It is counterproductive for all involved. To the extent that they think they're setting themselves up for a better future with this act, they are not. I don't like playing armchair general here, I don't know what the targets were or how important they were. But what I do know is that Israel has tried this many times, and it never works out.
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Which is why the only solution in my mind is to create another option to the status quo. Which Rabin tried to do but was then assassinated for it. By an Israeli.
Danoff
This is like... the TL;DR of Israel's entire history.



Totally agree, and this is why they need to be smart, careful, constant, and vigilant in their response. Instead, they are the opposite. I think their mindset is basic game theory. I forget the name for this particular game theory strategy. It's not "tit for tat". It's the one where you ratchet the response up past whatever someone does to you. I know it has a name and it's really bugging that I can't figure it out.

Anyway, you'd think they'd learn that it's not working.
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It's whatever the technical term is for "you kill one of ours we kill ten of yours". The Germans used it against the Resistance in WW2. It didn't work then either...
Joey D
The problem is, Israel does some pretty unconscionable things to the Palestinians too. The Israelis are creating an apartheid situation, forcing evictions, killing unarmed civilians, and torturing prisoners. Given that, I get why Hamas is attacking. However, they aren't any better than those they're fighting because they are killing civilians and torturing prisoners too. Hamas just doesn't have the means to enact apartheid or forced evictions, but they're still a terrible group of people.

Israel needs to work towards living peacefully just as much as Hamas and other groups do. Unfortunately, neither side wants that and they end up killing a ton of people because of it. Until Israel makes moves to rectify the situation, they're just as bad as the people they're fighting and don't really have the moral high ground in my opinion.

Which is a massive problem and it all stems from religion. I bet if the people took the time to actually talk to one another, they'd probably see they're more or less the same.
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Agree totally with the last paragraph.
omgitsbees
The U.S. at most appears to be in the area to dissuade other countries from getting involved. But I want to be clear that is entirely speculation on my part. I don't think the U.S. has stated to the public exactly what it is they are doing with their ships, just that they have alerted Israel that they are in the area. Right now it really does just look like a show of force, "If you're not Israel or Palestine then stay out of this if you know what is good for you."
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I agree. I think the US are trying to find a way to "contain" things. The problem is I'm not sure whether Iran wants that. And I've no doubt that they're the guiding hand.
But... i'd like to think... How many proxy wars do Iran already have going. Can they really afford another one?
But there again.. think about the internal politics in Iran. Remember the woman who just won the Nobel peace prize? In some people's minds, the best way to take the populations mind off of rebelling is to start a war somewhere to distract them from what is happening at home.
And no that doesn't usually work either.
 
sirjim73
Who needs Hamas when your own countrymen will kill you just as quick :(
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Well obviously if you're not pro-Israel then you're a holocaust denier. Rabin picked the wrong side!
sirjim73
The problem is I'm not sure whether Iran wants that. And I've no doubt that they're the guiding hand.
But... i'd like to think... How many proxy wars do Iran already have going. Can they really afford another one?
But there again.. think about the internal politics in Iran. Remember the woman who just won the Nobel peace prize? In some people's minds, the best way to take the populations mind off of rebelling is to start a war somewhere to distract them from what is happening at home.
And no that doesn't usually work either.
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Judging by how many times Iran has insisted that they're not involved the past few days, it is sinking in how deep of a ******** they could be stepping in if they're not careful. That is if they didn't already realize that. This is why it's so vitally important for Western governments to stay united, even if many of us citizens disagree and think its a waste of time. The more we illustrate that our rules are the only rules, the more "rational" beligerents like Iran and China realize they need to fall in line or lose their ass.
 
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So I'm only really following this through this thread. Has Iran walked back them initially saying they were responsible for it (oopsie oopsie!) or were the initial reports on that... Ugh... Fake news?
 
Tornado
So I'm only really following this through this thread. Has Iran walked back them initially saying they were responsible for it (oopsie oopsie!) or were the initial reports on that... Ugh... Fake news?
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There weren't official statement, but its Le secret de Polichinelle. Iran supporting all radical Shia organizations in the world. Even some Sunni.
 
.
sirjim73
Unfortunately the only Israeli who made strides for peace in my lifetime was assassinated by... yep you guessed It, another Israeli.
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Who was that?

My limited knowledge is that Yitzhak Shamir was pretty moderate but since his retirement from politics the right-wing nutters in Israel have really taken hold.
 
There's a lot of mis- and disinformation going around right now.

Some are trying to keep track of it:
 
Liquid
.
Who was that?

My limited knowledge is that Yitzhak Shamir was pretty moderate but since his retirement from politics the right-wing nutters in Israel have really taken hold.
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www.nbcnews.com

1993: Rabin and Arafat shake hands at White House with President Clinton

Watch NBC Nightly News’ report from September 13, 1993 on the White House meeting between Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestine Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat following the secret Oslo peace accord agreement that year.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
 
Liquid
.
Who was that?

My limited knowledge is that Yitzhak Shamir was pretty moderate but since his retirement from politics the right-wing nutters in Israel have really taken hold.
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That would be Yitzchak Rabin.
 
The death toll from Saturday's attacks by Hamas now stands at over 1,200.

It's not clear how many of these (if any) were military, but it is clear that a very large number were civilians. To put that number into perspective, this would be the equivalent of an attack claiming 42,000 lives in the USA - a figure that is almost on a par with US losses during the Vietnam War (which were entirely military).

@Joey D Indeed it is well documented that the Israelia have a pretty dire track record of mistreating Palestinians, and I'm not excusing them or condoning their behaviour in any way - far from it, in fact. However, one of the main reasons for Israeli hostility towards Palestinians is the existence and heavy influence of groups like Hamas who intend to eradicate Israel.

Israel should treat Palestinians within the bounds of international law, and afford them their rights. However, Hamas don't recognise Israel's right to exist - nor do they regard Israeli people as anything more than legitimate targets for murder - and this view is shared by too many Palestinians, particularly in Gaza. While this in no way excuses Israeli brutality, it does at least explain a lot of it. It is hard to be nice to people who would murder you and your children in your beds if given the chance, and sadly that is what Hamas have just done.
 
Touring Mars
@Joey D Indeed it is well documented that the Israelia have a pretty dire track record of mistreating Palestinians, and I'm not excusing them or condoning their behaviour in any way - far from it, in fact. However, one of the main reasons for Israeli hostility towards Palestinians is the existence and heavy influence of groups like Hamas who intend to eradicate Israel.

Israel should treat Palestinians within the bounds of international law, and afford them their rights. However, Hamas don't recognise Israel's right to exist - nor do they regard Israeli people as anything more than legitimate targets for murder - and this view is shared by too many Palestinians, particularly in Gaza. While this in no way excuses Israeli brutality, it does at least explain a lot of it. It is hard to be nice to people who would murder you and your children in your beds if given the chance, and sadly that is what Hamas have just done.
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Neither side wants the other side to exist and they both claim that it's their rightful Holy Land.

And you're right, it's difficult to be nice to people who want to murder you, which is why on some level I get the hostility from Hamas. Israel has treated the Palestinians horribly and it's not surprising when the Palestinian people get fed up with being forcibly evicted from their homes, barred from moving freely, imprisoned, and tortured. It doesn't excuse the brutality Hamas is committing with the sheer violence towards civilians, kidnapping, and the like though, but it does at least put a reason behind it. Ideally both sides should learn to coexist peacefully.

Unlike what's going on in Ukraine, this war has no one in the right, both sides are defending themselves from the unlawful aggression that the other side commits. It's two sides that are terrible who will continue to do terrible things to one another because they have slightly different interpretations of the same monotheistic god.

I have always wanted the US to cut its support for Israel until they quit committing human rights violations and going on a war crimes spree. Unfortunately, that gets me labeled an antisemite because I don't agree with Israel. I'm fine with US supporting a country that at least attempts to act within the confines of doing the right thing, but Israel doesn't.
 
Joey D
Ideally both sides should learn to coexist peacefully.
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The only hope of that ever happening is for Israel to re-engage with Palestinian moderates in Gaza and the West Bank, and for the international community to do a lot more to broker peace between them first, and then for Palestinian moderates to oust Hamas. While Hamas and other Iranian proxies are in control, however, there is no chance of peace because Hamas (and likely also Iranian) doctrine is to eliminate Jews.

Netanyhu is a war criminal and under his leadership, Israel has become a violent oppressor. But AFAIK, nowhere in Israeli political or religious doctrine does Israel advocate for the eradication of the Palestinian people. However, Netanyhu and other Israeli extremists don't consider the notion of Palestine as a state existing, and that is a fundamental problem that continues to feed the cycle of violence on both sides. But that is fundamentally different to Israel advocating for the elimination of Muslims or Palestinians.

Change needs to happen on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides, and only a solution that serves both Israeli and Palestinian people satisfactorily will lead to a lasting peace.

-

I hate the idea of being labelled as an anti-Semite for criticising Israeli politicians or the behaviour of its government or military, but alas it is a very common charge. The irony is that critics of Isreali behaviour like ourselves are the ones who seem most interested in delivering lasting peace for everyone in the region. If being labelled an anti-Semite is the price to pay for that, then I guess it is a price worth paying.
 

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