Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Liquid]

l they're going to erase the Palestinians.

LMFTFY

This has links to Ukraine; the world is watching to see what can be gotten away with. China/Taiwan is one but Israel/Palestine is another of which some might have taken their eye off the ball.

 

[Tornado]

I think the question is after they turn the Gaza strip into a parking lot, do they consider that enough or do they stuff to go after Iran too?

It feels weird being in what appears to be a minority of people who think Israel sucks and causes its own problems and we shouldn't be supporting them the way we do.\

In the past 5-ish years of Netanyahu's reign I'm not sure what the US actually gets out of it at this point anyway.

 

[Keef]

I think the question is after they turn the Gaza strip into a parking lot, do they consider that enough or do they stuff to go after Iran too?

In the past 5-ish years of Netanyahu's reign I'm not sure what the US actually gets out of it at this point anyway.

He's really been putting the "yahu" in Netanyahu.

 

[Keef]

Apparently Hezbollah has stated their line drawn for entering the war would be an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza. So far, the two have only exchanged fire on outposts in the complicated border region with Lebanon.

 

[MIE1992]

It feels weird being in what appears to be a minority of people who think Israel sucks and causes its own problems and we shouldn't be supporting them the way we do. I mean hell, apparently even the Empire State Building will be lit up blue and white tonight lol. Get outta here. Britain may have drawn the worst lines possible but Israeli zionists are the ones who decided to accept the challenge of creating an ethno-state.

They could just move to Kansas or something but nooooo.

Kinda sounds like you want an excuse to not think about it, by pretending it's about religion and painting everyone as bad.

EDIT: I mean, there are multiple Muslim states like Saudi Arabia, why can't Jews have one, if only to have a save haven from stuff like the Holocaust? Not to mention that the hard-line orthodox Jews hardly speak for everyone in Israel. Many Israelis don't even like Netanyahu nor his attempts to expand the settlements. But it seems like you just wanna write off Israel as being a land full of far-right orthodox Jews, when you couldn't be further from the truth. Especially since I've visited Israel myself.

 

[Dennisch]

More than 600 dead reportedly in Israel and at least 100 people kidnapped.

And as for the Palestinian cause, if you kill hippies, grannies and children and then parade their dead bodies around, you deserve to be terminated. The west needs to break every single tie with Palestine. Want help? Ask your barbarian friends.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I mean, there are multiple Muslim states like Saudi Arabia, why can't Jews have one,

All states should be secular, aspiring to have a non-secular state is anti-humanity, and aspiring to be like states that are able to impose religious law is just backwards.

if only to have a save haven from stuff like the Holocaust?

If you want the state to be able to impose religious views, you're setting the stage for eradication of people based on their views.

Religion absolutely should not affect those that don't share those beliefs. The state should not be imposing or advocating such things.

 

[Keef]

There are quite a lot of videos being published of the moments Hamas breached the border walls. Viewpoints that appear to be both from Gaza and Israel.



I hate to really pass judgement on how Israel messed this up because the US border with Mexico is also constantly crossed by bad actors. That said, the US-Mexico border is also as long as the distance from Tel Aviv to Kabul lol. So Israel's failure to actively watch a border that is only about 35 miles long is pretty bad. You can't tell me you didn't have guard posts calling in suspicious activity or something like that.

I'm no conspiracy theorist but there have been numerous news stories in the US at the individual level where property owners have baited criminals to attempt to shoot the baddies and claim self defense. I don't think that is an unrealistic possibility here.

 

[Dennisch]

There are quite a lot of videos being published of the moments Hamas breached the border walls. Viewpoints that appear to be both from Gaza and Israel.

I hate to really pass judgement on how Israel messed this up because the US border with Mexico is also constantly crossed by bad actors. That said, the US-Mexico border is also as long as the distance from Tel Aviv to Kabul lol. So Israel's failure to actively watch a border that is only about 35 miles long is pretty bad. You can tell me you didn't have guard posts calling in suspicious activity or something like that.

Current internet sentiment/conspiracy is that Israeli Intelligence knew that the attacks were going to happen and let them happen to justify parking lotting the Gaza Strip.

 

[Keef]

Current internet sentiment/conspiracy is that Israeli Intelligence knew that the attacks were going to happen and let them happen to justify parking lotting the Gaza Strip.

That gives a whole new meaning to somebody calling this "Israel's 9/11"

 

[Tornado]

Kinda sounds like you want an excuse to not think about it, by pretending it's about religion and painting everyone as bad.

EDIT: I mean, there are multiple Muslim states like Saudi Arabia, why can't Jews have one, if only to have a save haven from stuff like the Holocaust? Not to mention that the hard-line orthodox Jews hardly speak for everyone in Israel. Many Israelis don't even like Netanyahu nor his attempts to expand the settlements. But it seems like you just wanna write off Israel as being a land full of far-right orthodox Jews, when you couldn't be further from the truth. Especially since I've visited Israel myself.

I'm sure there are people in Alabama who don't like Trump, too.

 

[Keef]

far-right

I don't necessarily think the people are far right at all. But I do know what zionism is and can easily connect the dots between it, other examples of theocracy around the world and throughout history, and the many elements they all share with typically more secular fascist systems. In particular, Netanyahu's more recent far-right bender has taken Israel's government that much closer to genuine fascism. But almost every country in that region is some form of theocracy which is the worst possible recipe for peace. Until they figure out basing government on religion or ethnicity precludes stability, they will all be on the brink of war with each other.





Impressive missile defense. Note the few missiles that go hunting for new targets:

 

[Arthur-A]

if you kill hippies, grannies and children and then parade their dead bodies around, you deserve to be terminated

I don't condone brutal attacks against civilians, but Israel done much worse if you compare statistics.

 

[Famine]

Oh, if I had a nickel for every "I don't condone [x], but..." equivocation...

It is entirely possible to abhor Israeli brutality, land grabs, ghettoisation, and apartheid against Palestinians and Palestinian murders of Israeli civilian women and children at the same time.

And to recognise that Israel's actions are not those of Israeli people, and that - in this case - Hamas's actions are not those of Palestinian people.

It's not complicated, and requires no whataboutism.

 

[Keef]

I don't condone brutal attacks against civilians

And I don't condone unorganized militants who don't wear uniforms. Arguably, the main reason for the very high number of Palestinian civilian deaths is because Palestinian militants choose to intermingle with civilians in a way that guarantees civilians die during any legitimate Israeli counter-attack. It's called martyrdom, and it's a classic tactic used by guerilla fighters and other extremist militants. Name a terrorist organization off the top of your head and I almost guarantee they allow their own civilians to be slaughtered on purpose.

 

[Imari]

These people are insane terrorist zealots. The Israelis themselves aren't far off, at least they're not blatant terrorists.

Kinda, but if you're a Palestinian who wants to fight back what can you do other than be a terrorist? You can't compete with Israel and it's US backed weaponry in a straight fight. The only hope you have is guerilla tactics stuff, which these days is terrorism. It's terrible, but I find it to be a strangely understandable sort of terrible.

To be clear, my opinion is that it's ****ed all around and there are no good guys here. Apart from the civilians on both sides who just want somewhere safe to live.

 

[Touring Mars]

It's important to remember that Hamas don't represent Palestine, however they are currently in control of Gaza and they remain committed to wiping out Israel. For as long as they retain that stance (and they will), Israel will not engage and the strategy will remain one of containment. That strategy, however, has spectacularly failed last weekend, but even Israel have been shocked at the level of Hamas savagery.

If Israel wants to live peacefully with its neighbours and co-exist with Palestinians, then it needs to redouble efforts to engage with Palestinian politicians who do recognise Israel's right to exist, and meet them half way when it comes to implementing a fair deal for Palestinians. Thus far, however, that hasn't happened.

 

[Liquid]

If Israel wants to live peacefully with its neighbours and co-exist with Palestinians

Does Israel want to do that? By which I mean its government. My knowledge of Israeli politics is extremely vague but it seems that the right-wing surge that Israel has experienced recently aren't the coexisting types.

Happy to be proven otherwise.

 

[Danoff]

There is something a little perverse about talking about event event marked by brutality and savagery against Israeli civilians in a thread labeled "Israel Attacks Gaza". If this is to be the place where the latest atrocity is to be discussed, perhaps the thread should be something like Israeli-Hamas or Israeli-Palestinian or Israel/Palestine/Hamas Conflict.

My mind keeps bringing up Las Vegas.

A just cause should not have permitted this attack. I expect Israel to respond with insufficient care.

 

[Shahar]

Israeli here if you have any questions about the situation or in general. Obviously biased but I’ll try to give a factual and evidence backed responses.

 

[Joey D]

Does Israel want to do that? By which I mean its government. My knowledge of Israeli politics is extremely vague but it seems that the right-wing surge that Israel has experienced recently aren't the coexisting types.

Happy to be proven otherwise.

It's complicated. From my understanding, the official position of Israel is that it recognizes Palestine, but doesn't recognize its borders.

But based on rhetoric and actions, I don't see Israel wanting Palestine to exist any more than Palestine wants Israel to exist. I don't see either side being happy until the other side is completely destroyed.

 

[Shahar]

Does Israel want to do that?

This is the question every Israeli general election has been about in the past 50 years. Israelis are split between supporting a two state solution, annexing the West Bank, or just continuing the current situation. Because there’s no obvious majority the situation is pretty stale solution wise.

 

[Milouse]

If Israel wants to live peacefully with its neighbours and co-exist with Palestinians, then it needs to redouble efforts to engage with Palestinian politicians who do recognise Israel's right to exist, and meet them half way when it comes to implementing a fair deal for Palestinians. Thus far, however, that hasn't happened.

That would probably make front page all over the world.

 

[Touring Mars]

That would probably make front page all over the world.
View attachment 1293734View attachment 1293735

It would be nice to see similar headlines from this century.

 

[Shahar]

It would be nice to see similar headlines from this century.

While not an agreement with the Palestinians, in 2020 Israel, the UAE, Morocco and Bahrain have signed a normalization agreement. the first such agreement since Israel-Jordan peace treaty in 1994.

The US is currently pushing for an Israeli-Saudi Arabia agreement. Part of Saudi Arabia’s terms for the agreement are that Israel and the Palestinian Authority get back to negotiations.

One of the suspected reasons for the current war is Iran’s attempt to sabotage the Israel-SA deal.

As a side note, the 2020 peace agreement was downplayed because it was done by…well…you know who. And because it was in the midst of COVID.

 

[Keef]

Kinda, but if you're a Palestinian who wants to fight back what can you do other than be a terrorist?

Why does anybody have to fight? Why don't any of them read a history book and realize that the region they all think should belong to them has been an ethnic melting pot for literally thousands of years? Why can't they just set religion aside and live amongst each other? They're all a bunch of zealots, literally.

I feel like the entire think should become some sort of United Nations nation, governed directly by the UN. No Gaza, no West Bank, no Israel, no borders or walls or anything around Jerusalem. Anybody who wants to come live and worship can do so. It wouldn't work obviously, but none of these people deserve to have random lines carved out of the map and given to them.

CNN:

Lebanon does not wish to be drawn into the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas, Lebanese Prime Minister-designate Najib Mikati said Monday, according to state news NNA.

“We do not want Lebanon to enter into the ongoing war, and we are striving for that,” Mikati said in a meeting Monday with Lebanese Foreign Minister Abdullah Bu Habib, adding that part of the Lebanese government's priority was to "maintain security and stability in southern Lebanon."

Some context: Lebanon and Israel are considered enemy states, but a truce between the two has largely held since a conflict between them in 2006. There have been several small-scale rocket attacks in recent years from Lebanon — which borders Israel to the north — that have prompted retaliatory strikes from Israel. Palestinian factions in Lebanon were believed to be behind those rocket attacks.

The Israel Defense Forces on Monday said a “number of armed suspects” who “infiltrated” into Israel from Lebanon were killed, and that IDF soldiers were searching the area.

IDF helicopters are currently striking in the area,” the statement added.

We all appreciate the sentiment, Lebanon, but your country isn't your own country anymore and hasn't been for quite some time.

Blinken misspoke and had to realign his words with our Ukraine policy.

 

[Milouse]

While watching a youtube video related to a video game yesterday, i've been shown 5 times in 15 minutes a propaganda video of "State of Israel" saying they have been attacked and that they have every right to react. They think they'll strike hard enough to have to prepare populations even out of Israel.


Edit: The video

 

[Keef]

Something I find very interesting in terms of propaganda is that there are various media outlets, particularly the Wall Street Journal [edit: only the WSJ?], reporting that Iran was helping Hamas.

Both the US and Israel are not acknowledging this. The fact that Israel has also directly said that they have no evidence for Iranian involvement.

Where does this put WSJ? That's an extremely influential newspaper and just so happens to have a massive Jewish-American readership being based in New York City. I'd love to read the article but its paywalled as usual.

Free press yada yada, but this seems like some sort of call to arms by WSJ and may be very irresponsible journalism.

Edit: Reuters is reporting on how Hamas "duped" Israel, and even constructed a mock village to practice raids, citing a source "close to Hamas". Boy, if Reuters has a source that close to Hamas I don't doubt the US and Israel wouldn't mind knowing more about Reuters methods if you know what I mean.

The governments have obvious reasons to be very cautious with their verification process. The media is universally reporting that Israel was caught off guard and several Israeli officials have towed that line but I honestly don't buy it @Dennisch. Given Israeli intel resources, they would be much better at withholding intelligence than any newspaper would be at getting it. It would be fairly easy for a relatively locked-down government like Israeli to simply withhold reactions and allow an attack to occur on purpose, giving them all the reason they need to do what they believe needs done. That said, the deal with Saudi Arabia would've been beneficial to all parties and it doesn't seem like sabotaging that deal is something Israel would be interested in. Saudi Arabia probably doesn't care either way. And the US is the biggest proponent of that deal so arguably we have more to lose than anybody. We're like the parents trying to get our two kids to stop arguing.

 

[Blitz24]

Something I find very interesting in terms of propaganda is that there are various media outlets, particularly the Wall Street Journal [edit: only the WSJ?], reporting that Iran was helping Hamas.

Both the US and Israel are not acknowledging this. The fact that Israel has also directly said that they have no evidence for Iranian involvement.

Where does this put WSJ? That's an extremely influential newspaper and just so happens to have a massive Jewish-American readership being based in New York City. I'd love to read the article but its paywalled as usual.

Free press yada yada, but this seems like some sort of call to arms by WSJ and may be very irresponsible journalism.

I have the article and I'm about to read it. From what I understand, the sources were senior Hezbollah and Hamas officials.

After reading the article, Israel did not directly call out Iran, but more sources say that Iran is behind it.

 

[inCloud]

Israeli here

Stay safe.

Kinda, but if you're a Palestinian who wants to fight back what can you do other than be a terrorist

Why are you want to fight at all? Like, Israel as country wants peace and prosperity for Palestine more than anyone else(looks like more, than Palestinians themself). Who on Earth could chose HAMAS controlled Gaza instead of Israel?