Israel - Palestine discussion thread

Liquid
I am sure that if Syria, Russia or Iran had shot 52 protesters dead there would be a greater and more forceful outcry from the international community. It shouldn't matter who shot whom but clearly in order to garner attention and sympathy but, sadly, it does.

Something piqued my interest the other week after some friends of mine went on holiday to Israel and Palestine before it all kicked off again this most recent time; as they were being interrogated upon landing at Tel-Aviv about what they plan to do and where they plan on going one of my friends, seemingly unaware of who 'owns' what, slipped up during his interrogation:

"Are you planning on travelling to Palestine during your stay?"
"No, just going to Bethlehem."

WOOP! WOOP! Big QI klaxon right there and they were delayed for even more time as they were given the third degree.

But it struck me as so bizarre that Israel claims all of its claimed territory, doesn't recognise Palestine but acknowledges that people travelling to places like Bethlehem for example, are leaving Israeli jurisdiction. You're going somewhere Israel claims but doesn't recognise the actual ruling jurisdiction even though the place isn't under your control, and you know that because you acknowledge that people travelling there are travelling somewhere 'different' and therefore need to be frisked and questioned, therefore you recognise that you, in fact, don't 'own' it...?

giphy.gif


There was also the debacle where two of them were given paper entry visas without asking and my third friend who specifically asked for a paper entry visa before being given one found himself on the end of some sudden aggression by the border patrolwoman and was asked "Why do you want to visit one of those places which doesn't recognise Israel anyway?" The answer being, "Well, I have friends who live there and what business is it of yours?"

Anyway, just something I found very strange.

And in case it didn't get reported, there were Israelis outside the Prime Minister's house protesting the Gaza shootings:



It's Twitter but I'll take it as authentic.
Click to expand...
All of West bank is under Israeli Military control, despite what it looks, this is how they get their settlements built in West Bank.

If this wasn't the case most would of fled to Jordan already(Israel tries to stop that from happening despite Jordan being ok with with it).
 
Touring Mars
They want - rightly or wrongly - to reclaim the land that Israel is settled on...
Click to expand...

Well, this is where it gets a bit tricky.

Under the original plan, Israel and Palestine had their own sections of country. It was pretty arbitrary, as I understand it, but that's what it was. At which point the two go to war, and after a fair bit of back and forth Israel has basically ended up wiping what would have been Palestine off the map, resulting in a group of people without a country.

Let it not be said that the Jewish God is without a sense of irony.

Israel is going to keep having to face these people, because they're basically cornered rats (pardon the distasteful analogy). They have nowhere to go and their choices seem to be to die or to die fighting. I suspect this suits Israel just fine, as with US backing and an actual functional government and economy they can stomp any Palestinian attack into next Tuesday.

Until Israel concedes that the Arabs of the area have just as much right to live there and have access to their holy site as they do, this conflict will continue. Israel is very much the one steering the boat at the moment, but I don't see them as having much interest in anything beyond 100% occupation of the area.
 
Joey D
52 dead in a non-combat situation and what is, for the most part, are just protesters sounds a little trigger happy to me. Here in the US, if anyone police force or military branch killed 52 people during a protest, there would be substantial outrage. You'd think one of the "best trained military forces in the world" could control a situation without killing unarmed, or at most armed with non-superior weapons, people.

And with regards to Isreal being like other Middle Eastern countries, that's my fault, I should've been clearer. In terms of use of force, terrorizing civilians, thinking their religion is the right religion, and thinking they have a sense of entitlement to land is no different than other Middle Eastern countries.

Yes, the country has many things going for them and you know how they got that way? US tax dollars. This source says since the end of WWII, Isreal has received $134.7 billion in aid from the US, both through military and economic stimulus. That number should be $0 - which should be the same for every other country. If the government is essentially going to steal my money, the least they could do is invest it back in the US to boost our economy.

Also, I'm not sure how booming the Isreali economy is compared to some other Middle Eastern countries. Sure, it's not poor by any means, but it's also not stupid rich since it's not loaded with oil. Looking at a list of country's GDP, Isreal ranks below, Turkey, UAE, and Saudi Arabia. If you sort the list by PPP, it ranks below Saudi Arabia, Iran, and even Iraq. Granted this list is only current through April of this year.
Click to expand...
Oil is money flowing out of the ground. I don't give a lot of credit to the people who happen to live on top of it for it's ability to create wealth and income. I was comparing them in things that actually took effort and ingenuity and vision. Interesting though that you would choose money to compare them and ignore everything else.

Imari
Well, this is where it gets a bit tricky.

Under the original plan, Israel and Palestine had their own sections of country. It was pretty arbitrary, as I understand it, but that's what it was. At which point the two go to war, and after a fair bit of back and forth Israel has basically ended up wiping what would have been Palestine off the map, resulting in a group of people without a country.

Let it not be said that the Jewish God is without a sense of irony.

Israel is going to keep having to face these people, because they're basically cornered rats (pardon the distasteful analogy). They have nowhere to go and their choices seem to be to die or to die fighting. I suspect this suits Israel just fine, as with US backing and an actual functional government and economy they can stomp any Palestinian attack into next Tuesday.

Until Israel concedes that the Arabs of the area have just as much right to live there and have access to their holy site as they do, this conflict will continue. Israel is very much the one steering the boat at the moment, but I don't see them as having much interest in anything beyond 100% occupation of the area.
Click to expand...
"The two go to war" is a very quaint way of saying the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq entered Palestine and attacked Jewish settlements and Israeli forces.
 
Johnnypenso
"The two go to war" is a very quaint way of saying the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq entered Palestine and attacked Jewish settlements and Israeli forces.
Click to expand...

Given that it was, as you say, Palestinian territory and Israel had just been basically given about half of it and then proceeded to take over most of it and then some in retaliation I think that there's more than enough blame for that war on both sides.

Realistically, that conflict was created by the UK. They chose to occupy the area, and they chose to pull out despite the country being in the middle of a civil war. Reminds me a bit of Iraq and the US, to be honest. So yeah, it went to hell in a handbasket after that and countries nearby started stepping in.

Arabic countries stepping in to support the Arabic administration shouldn't exactly be a surprise. You'll find that western alliances do exactly the same thing. You know how the US keeps performing military actions to "defend it's interests"? That's it.

I thought "the two go to war" was a relatively succinct summary of a very complex situation in which determining who is more at fault out of Israel and Palestine is basically impossible. They were both dead keen to jump at each other's throats, and they were ultimately set up in a largely untenable position by greater powers.

I just find it ironic that it essentially started because the Jews wanted a Jewish state to call home, and rightly so. They've ended up trying to turn the Palestinians into exactly what they were before Israel was created, a people without a home.

I find it a little sad that people can be so self-interested that they can't see or restrain themselves from hurting others in the same way that they were hurt. I'd rather see Israel grow a pair and be the bigger man, instead of simply crushing their enemies into dust. But that seems unlikely, especially with the support of the current US administration and it's highly inflammatory and aggressive policies.
 
Johnnypenso
Oil is money flowing out of the ground. I don't give a lot of credit to the people who happen to live on top of it for it's ability to create wealth and income. I was comparing them in things that actually took effort and ingenuity and vision. Interesting though that you would choose money to compare them and ignore everything else.
Click to expand...

Money is the lifeblood of a country, without it, nothing else is possible. If Isreal didn't get scores of aid from Western countries and sweetheart deals on military equipment, it wouldn't have the funds to progress the country forward like it does. Based on the amount of money to US gives them every year, it seems like they are more or less propped up through my tax dollars - which boils down to the government stealing my money to give it a foreign power.

I corrected my initial statement about why they are like other Middle Eastern countries. I did admit I wasn't terribly clear in my comparison. But the way they conduct themselves regarding foreign relations, especially with its neighbours, is very similar to how other countries in the region conduct themselves. They don't seem to want peace and based on their actions want to, as @Imari puts it, "crush the enemies into dust".

If Israel truly is as forward thinking and progressive as you imply, surely they can do something besides shooting mostly unarmed civilians who feel like Israel is encroaching on their way of life. I agree they have the right to defend their borders, but at the same time, they are treading dangerously close to war crimes in my opinion.
 
HenrySwanson
What I find pretty insane is that an 8 month old died from inhaling tear gas. Why would you bring a baby to a protest such as this?
Click to expand...

Supposedly she was in a tent away from the front line when a drone dropped tear gas. Her mother left her at home to go to the protests, and the uncle brought her out to find her mother when she started crying. It all seems pretty reasonable to me considering what a normal day is probably like in Gaza.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ers-jerusalem-border-us-embassy-a8351971.html

Remember that Gaza is tiny, there is nowhere that is really that far from a fence. It's not really that far from being a massive prison.
 
Imari
Supposedly she was in a tent away from the front line when a drone dropped tear gas. Her mother left her at home to go to the protests, and the uncle brought her out to find her mother when she started crying. It all seems pretty reasonable to me considering what a normal day is probably like in Gaza.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ers-jerusalem-border-us-embassy-a8351971.html

Remember that Gaza is tiny, there is nowhere that is really that far from a fence. It's not really that far from being a massive prison.
Click to expand...
Gaza city is a tiny 45 sq. km and the Gaza Strip is over 300 sq. km. Hard to get a way from a fence in that tiny area.
 
The article does demonstrate in equal measure just how tough life is in Gaza for the Palestinians and what a dilemma faces the Israelis charged with defending the border - can you imagine your 14 year old child (or anyone for that matter) telling you that they were praying to get killed at a demonstration, and that they were utterly determined to attend such demonstrations? To be so determined to get yourself killed - as a child - points to way more than mere harsh living conditions; there are many places all over the world that are as difficult to live as the Gaza Strip (albeit for different regions), but that do not engender anything like the suicidal tendencies witnessed in the children of Gaza - and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why that might be. Faced with tens of thousands of like-minded people (people who are not only willing but who actively wish to die) arming themselves with wire cutters (as this girl was), assorted weapons, and even explosives (as others who were killed at the border were), it is little wonder that the Israelis are adopting a policy of 'shoot first, ask questions later'.
 
Touring Mars
The article does demonstrate in equal measure just how tough life is in Gaza for the Palestinians and what a dilemma faces the Israelis charged with defending the border - can you imagine your 14 year old child (or anyone for that matter) telling you that they were praying to get killed at a demonstration, and that they were utterly determined to attend such demonstrations? To be so determined to get yourself killed - as a child - points to way more than mere harsh living conditions; there are many places all over the world that are as difficult to live as the Gaza Strip (albeit for different regions), but that do not engender anything like the suicidal tendencies witnessed in the children of Gaza - and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why that might be. Faced with tens of thousands of like-minded people (people who are not only willing but who actively wish to die) arming themselves with wire cutters (as this girl was), assorted weapons, and even explosives (as others who were killed at the border were), it is little wonder that the Israelis are adopting a policy of 'shoot first, ask questions later'.
Click to expand...

Imo the justification for shooting them is 'wrong' so you create a situation filled with desperate people who are willing to do anything.

And then now since they reachee that point it's justified to shoot them...

It's compmicated imo as Israel has the right to defend itself. But then again the need to defend themself is by a large part due to israelli occupation.

Don't forget.under german occupation a lot of people joined a resistance and where willing to die resisting. We don't see them as evil or brainwashed. So I don't find this to be such a strange thing from palestinians.
 
Touring Mars
The article does demonstrate in equal measure just how tough life is in Gaza for the Palestinians and what a dilemma faces the Israelis charged with defending the border - can you imagine your 14 year old child (or anyone for that matter) telling you that they were praying to get killed at a demonstration, and that they were utterly determined to attend such demonstrations? To be so determined to get yourself killed - as a child - points to way more than mere harsh living conditions; there are many places all over the world that are as difficult to live as the Gaza Strip (albeit for different regions), but that do not engender anything like the suicidal tendencies witnessed in the children of Gaza - and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why that might be. Faced with tens of thousands of like-minded people (people who are not only willing but who actively wish to die) arming themselves with wire cutters (as this girl was), assorted weapons, and even explosives (as others who were killed at the border were), it is little wonder that the Israelis are adopting a policy of 'shoot first, ask questions later'.
Click to expand...
Which is why I acknowledged that brainwashing (for want of a better term) is certainly a factor, but its also a factor that the actions of both Egypt and Israel have exaggerated massively.

I'm also not convinced that its a unique situation either, an unfortunate number of places around the world exist in which the value of life (including ones own) gets devalued to the point of being almost meaningless. City of God provides a good example of how similar pressure in a different environment can result in very similar outcomes.
 
Imari
Given that it was, as you say, Palestinian territory and Israel had just been basically given about half of it and then proceeded to take over most of it and then some in retaliation I think that there's more than enough blame for that war on both sides.
Click to expand...
Ah, no. It was never Palestinian territory and nobody was ever given any of it. In fact it was entirely British, and then simultaneously British, Israel and nowhere.

Essentially after decades of all-quarters terrorism* - Jewish on Arab, Jewish on British, Arab on Jewish, Arab on British - the occupying British wanted to withdraw from the territory. The UN drew up a Partition Plan, with clearly demarcated Jewish and Arab territory, with Jerusalem as a region under neither's control. The UK abstained from the vote, along with a number of South American nations, while every single Arab nation voted against it. Jewish leaders in the region were broadly in favour, while Arabic ones were not - making a large number of very unhelpful comments about the eradication of Zionism and driving Jews into the sea in a war of elimination equal to the Crusades. Yeah. The most measured Arabic solution was to allow Jews to retain citizenship in the entirely Arabic state.

It was an interesting plan too. Arab lands included the West Bank and Gaza, but at about 10 times the size they are now, and a chunk of land on the Lebanon border. Excluding Jerusalem, it was about 55:45 in the Jews' favour, but much of the Jewish land included the Negev Desert. The Arabic bloc included all of the highlands around Jerusalem (and all the aquifers) and just about a third of the coastline, while the Jewish bloc included the agricultural lowlands.

The partition plan never came to fruition. It resulted in an almost immediate civil war and the British decided to leave. Very helpfully, the British also decided not to let the UN come in for a smooth transition of power from "The British Mandate of Palestine" to whatever would come next.

The Brits withdrew on May 14 1948, leaving the entire territory vacant - a literal power vacuum. As the partition plan never happened, none of the land was anybody's. At the same moment, the Jewish inhabitants that the British (and Americans; in fact it was a US repatriation of tens of thousands of Jews that caused the first major post-war issues - although it was pretty evidently the UK and France at fault) had shipped over in large numbers declared the vacant land they lived in as theirs, and called it Israel. And at the same moment, the mainly-Arab bordering nations - Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia - invaded what they called vacant land but which Israel called Israel.

The following war wasn't quite an eradication of Zionism - Israel kept not only the land it would have had in the partition plan, but took half of the Arabic lands too. Eventually the Gaza Strip was left for Egypt to rule, and the West Bank for Syria. Well, for 19 years until the next war...



*Provoked, in part, by the UK and France carving the region up for their own purposes, pissing off the Arabs who they'd promised land for if they'd help them in WW1, and shipping Jewish settlers in from post-Holocaust Europe in the hundreds of thousands. France had also put down a revolt by Syrian Arabs in the 1920s, leaving tens of thousands of Arabs homeless, with huge damage to the land's agriculture and economy.
 
What makes it even trickier is that historically (and we are going way back here) is that while a region called Israel does pre-date a region (in the same place near as damn it) called Palestine, with the earliest use of Israel in this context being 1209 BCE and Palestine around 500 BCE, that Israel wasn't exclusively Jewish. as Judaism as a faith has roots around that time, but wasn't used as a term until around 200 BCE.

Further compounded by earlier variants on the name Palestine dating back as far as 1150 BCE (and therefore close to the start of the non-Jewish Israel).

Short version, its always been complicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_name_"Palestine"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism
 
Imari
Yes.



Ah, we're down to copy/pasting random stuff wholesale from Wikipedia I see. Nice.
Click to expand...
I'm trying to understand how to have fun in the Israel attacks Gaza thread. It seems to be by trivializing the conflict by reference to fictional superheroes and postmodern absurdity. If that is not the way, please show us a better way.
 
My Arab friend told me once Ibn Lahad means the Son of No one lmaooo

Back to the topic. If it was Hamas sending protestors to be honest they actually won the Propaganda battle here because they showed once again how Israel used bloodshed to kill protestors which led to international condemnation while Israel is trying to damage control to justify its actions.

To be honest i dont think there will be a end in sight for this conflict. Israelis dont want the Palestinians. Palestinians dont want them.
 
SestoScudo
My Arab friend told me once Ibn Lahad means the Son of No one lmaooo

Back to the topic. If it was Hamas sending protestors to be honest they actually won the Propaganda battle here because they showed once again how Israel used bloodshed to kill protestors which led to international condemnation while Israel is trying to damage control to justify its actions.

To be honest i dont think there will be a end in sight for this conflict. Israelis dont want the Palestinians. Palestinians dont want them.
Click to expand...
That sounds way too tragic. Allow me to introduce some levity into the situation with Palestinian/Israeli jokes! :lol:

 
Imari
Ah, we're down to copy/pasting random stuff wholesale from Wikipedia I see. Nice.
Click to expand...
You didn't seem to have a problem with the Assassin's Creed reference until @Dotini jumped in and joined the fun. Just an observation. All in good fun I guess right?
 
Johnnypenso
You didn't seem to have a problem with the Assassin's Creed reference until @Dotini jumped in and joined the fun. Just an observation. All in good fun I guess right?
Click to expand...

It's my opinion that slipping a video game character's name in sideways is a clever way to have fun, and copy/pasting a poorly formatted section of Wikipedia is not a particularly clever way of having fun.

Using Assassins Creed is just fine. I see nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, I think that it's useful for posters to add something of their own instead of simply CTRL+C, CTRL+V-ing their way into a discussion. Famine's post makes people think or have a giggle. Dotini's post makes you crosseyed trying to read the block of unformatted and unspaced text.

perhapsyouthinkitwouldbemorefunifeveryonetypedwithoutspaces?iseenothingwrongwithcallingpeopleoutfornotevenmakingtheefforttocorrectlyformattheirrecycledposts.iobjecttothelackofeffortandtheminimalattempttoevenmakeaborderlinereadablepost,notthecontent.takeforexampledotinisnextpost,nowthatsqualityisraelicomedy!
 
Last edited:
Imari
It's my opinion that slipping a video game character's name in sideways is a clever way to have fun, and copy/pasting a poorly formatted section of Wikipedia is not a particularly clever way of having fun.

Using Assassins Creed is just fine. I see nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, I think that it's useful for posters to add something of their own instead of simply CTRL+C, CTRL+V-ing their way into a discussion. Famine's post makes people think or have a giggle. Dotini's post makes you crosseyed trying to read the block of unformatted and unspaced text.

perhapsyouthinkitwouldbemorefunifeveryonetypedwithoutspaces?iseenothingwrongwithcallingpeopleoutfornotevenmakingtheefforttocorrectlyformattheirrecycledposts.iobjecttothelackofeffortandtheminimalattempttoevenmakeaborderlinereadablepost,notthecontent.takeforexampledotinisnextpost,nowthatsqualityisraelicomedy!
Click to expand...
You're easily triggered.
 

Similar threads

KSaiyu
Gaza round 189
3 4 5
Replies
135
Views
8K
Solid Fro
Solid Fro
Poverty
How do you feel about Israel?
2 3 4
Replies
95
Views
3K
KSaiyu
KSaiyu
KSaiyu
The New Cold War?
Replies
10
Views
957
YSSMAN
YSSMAN
JMoney
Just War Theory
2 3 4
Replies
100
Views
5K
JMoney
JMoney
Duke
Arafat's... legacy?
Replies
21
Views
811
Carl.
Carl.

Latest Posts

Back