Israel - Palestine discussion thread

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I don't condone brutal attacks against civilians, but Israel done much worse if you compare statistics.
This example can be interpreted in different ways.
Can show how well defended Israel is and how many people got injured during return fire after terrorists launch rockets or during raids, protests at the border.
Would like to see a similar comparison of launched attacks.
Israel is famous for their Iron Dome and "door knocking" before making a strike.

One side CAN kill the other, but they don't.
The other side WANTS to kill the other, but they can't.

Israel's answer to the bloody "Op Al-Aqsa Flood" is brutal. They say that they want to liquidate Hamas.
"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu addresses the nation amid war with Hamas 'Hamas wanted war, Hamas will get war'"

There are also reports of fire fights on the border with Lebanon.
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I wonder what they were talking about last year.

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"predicted"
 
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Egypt says they warned Israel that something was coming and Israel apparently didn't take it seriously.

What would Israel have done? Preparing for an otherwise unknown attack would've looked like a military buildup on Gaza's border, an act of aggression.
 
Egypt says they warned Israel that something was coming and Israel apparently didn't take it seriously.

What would Israel have done? Preparing for an otherwise unknown attack would've looked like a military buildup on Gaza's border, an act of aggression.
I'm sure Mossad could've figured something out since they're pretty good at black-ops stuff.
 
This whole episode is very puzzling.

What does Hamas expect out of this? They, I assume, are a largely rational, if extreme group. And no, before you write off Hamas as as simply an irrational terrorist organization, they are also (badly) running a country. They reach the bar for a rational if ideological actor. They wouldn't plan something like this without at least considering the response. And what other scenario could they expect other than making a lot of noise and then getting absolutely ****ing hammered in retaliation. So did they plan this operation in order to accelerate their own demise and nothing else? It just seems implausible.

So who needs this conflict that Palestinians definitely do not?

It's good for Bibi, because he now has a righteous opportunity to conquer at least all of Gaza and put to bed the two-state solution which would see him become basically a mythical figure in the Orthodox community, let alone his own world view. Destroying the Palestinians seems like a life long dream for him, so this is nothing but good news here. So a few thousand Israelis may die, I struggle to see him caring. This is some old testament **** for Netanyahu. Israel does not have expansive borders and guarding the small borders they have is a full time focus for Israeli's security forces. It's basically unbelievable that this happened. However, it strains logic to think that Hamas would do this in some kind of coordination with Bibi, because the only outcome possible was massive retaliation.

It's good for Putin, particularly if the conflict escalates. The US has already sent a carrier group to, at least optics-wise, lend support for Israel. And if the conflict escalates and Israel genuinely needs help, there is zero question in my mind that the US will be there with boots on the ground if needed. Its a huge distraction from Ukraine who is only recently been close with the US. Israel is like a ride together, die together homeboy for life. Israel is already asking for weapons.

It's good for Iran and the IRGC who desperately, desperately need some kind of distraction for domestic issues that are once again boiling over. The Ayatollah's base is smaller and less enthusiastic than it used to be, a conflict with the Islamic Republic's arch foe could plausibly excite them to defend the mullahs at home. The other thing it helpfully does is set back the growing diplomatic ties between Saudi Arabia and Israel which would see Iran increasingly reduced in regional stature, which would be devastating for the ruling class.

My bet is that this was essentially orchestrated by Russia & Iran as a huge smoke screen with multiple objectives and they have each pledged Hamas some kind of hollow incentive...and I suspect that Netanyahu saw it coming and decided the benefits of letting it happen outweighed the costs.

Russia doesn't care about Hamas other than their utility as a distraction
Netanyahu cares a lot about destroying Hamas but is hemmed in by international community from just stomping them out
Iran cares about Hamas as far as Hamas is the enemy of it's enemy and any sustained conflict hurts the normalization of ties between Israel and the Arab world.
Russia needs Iran to help supply them for their war against Ukraine
Iran needs Russia to help them survive domestic and international pressure

Iran gets to hurt Saudi Arabia indirectly and doesn't really care about the outcome for Hamas & the Palestinians. The messier it gets, the better it is for Iran
Russia gets a distraction indirectly by way of western support for Israel, and doesn't give a **** about the outcome for Hamas & the Palestinians
Netanyahu gets to end Palestine.

There's a lot of overlapping and seemingly contradictory motivations here, but I think there is a tacit, if unspoken acceptance that this benefits all three parties.

The losers here, of course, are the Palestinian people and the Israeli people to a lesser extent.
 
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And no, before you write off Hamas as as simply an irrational terrorist organization, they are also (badly) running a country. They reach the bar for a rational if ideological actor.
That rather seems to elevate the Taliban too, among others.
 
This whole episode is very puzzling.

What does Hamas expect out of this? They, I assume, are a largely rational, if extreme group. And no, before you write off Hamas as as simply an irrational terrorist organization, they are also (badly) running a country. They reach the bar for a rational if ideological actor. They wouldn't plan something like this without at least considering the response. And what other scenario could they expect other than making a lot of noise and then getting absolutely ****ing hammered in retaliation. So did they plan this operation in order to accelerate their own demise and nothing else? It just seems implausible.

So who needs this conflict that Palestinians definitely do not?

It's good for Bibi, because he now has a righteous opportunity to conquer at least all of Gaza and put to bed the two-state solution which would see him become basically a mythical figure in the Orthodox community, let alone his own world view. Destroying the Palestinians seems like a life long dream for him, so this is nothing but good news here. So a few thousand Israelis may die, I struggle to see him caring. This is some old testament **** for Netanyahu. Israel does not have expansive borders and guarding the small borders they have is a full time focus for Israeli's security forces. It's basically unbelievable that this happened. However, it strains logic to think that Hamas would do this in some kind of coordination with Bibi, because the only outcome possible was massive retaliation.

It's good for Putin, particularly if the conflict escalates. The US has already sent a carrier group to, at least optics-wise, lend support for Israel. And if the conflict escalates and Israel genuinely needs help, there is zero question in my mind that the US will be there with boots on the ground if needed. Its a huge distraction from Ukraine who is only recently been close with the US. Israel is like a ride together, die together homeboy for life. Israel is already asking for weapons.

It's good for Iran and the IRGC who desperately, desperately need some kind of distraction for domestic issues that are once again boiling over. The Ayatollah's base is smaller and less enthusiastic than it used to be, a conflict with the Islamic Republic's arch foe could plausibly excite them to defend the mullahs at home. The other thing it helpfully does is set back the growing diplomatic ties between Saudi Arabia and Israel which would see Iran increasingly reduced in regional stature, which would be devastating for the ruling class.

My bet is that this was essentially orchestrated by Russia & Iran as a huge smoke screen with multiple objectives and they have each pledged Hamas some kind of hollow incentive...and I suspect that Netanyahu saw it coming and decided the benefits of letting it happen outweighed the costs.

Russia doesn't care about Hamas other than their utility as a distraction
Netanyahu cares a lot about destroying Hamas but is hemmed in by international community from just stomping them out
Iran cares about Hamas as far as Hamas is the enemy of it's enemy and any sustained conflict hurts the normalization of ties between Israel and the Arab world.
Russia needs Iran to help supply them for their war against Ukraine
Iran needs Russia to help them survive domestic and international pressure

Iran gets to hurt Saudi Arabia indirectly and doesn't really care about the outcome for Hamas & the Palestinians. The messier it gets, the better it is for Iran
Russia gets a distraction indirectly by way of western support for Israel, and doesn't give a **** about the outcome for Hamas & the Palestinians
Netanyahu gets to end Palestine.

There's a lot of overlapping and seemingly contradictory motivations here, but I think there is a tacit, if unspoken acceptance that this benefits all three parties.

The losers here, of course, are the Palestinian people and the Israeli people to a lesser extent.

It's also possible that extremists just wanted to kill people. Islam promises religious warriors a place in heaven. And we have seen time and again that people are willing to murder indiscriminately for many causes, even without a game plan to benefit. The rational reward doesn't have to be "earthly". And sometimes the violence is itself enough of a reward.
 
That rather seems to elevate the Taliban too, among others.
In regards to them planning out realistic outcomes, I think the Taliban is a rational actor too.

What I'm getting at is that I don't you think you can just write off these groups as crazy religious zealots. They are religious zealots, for sure, but I think it can be easy to misunderstand or underestimate them when so narrowly considered.
 
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The current view in Israel is that the war is career ending for Netanyahu. Difficult wars are Prime minister enders in Israel. For example: Golda Meir after 1973 Yom Kipur war and Ehud Olmert after Second Lebanon war in 2006. So people thinking this is some conspiracy from Netanyahu don't know what they're talking about.

This whole conspiracy that Israel knew about this and intentnally ignored is equivilant to the CIA did 9/11 theory.

In Israel this is viewed as 9/11, it's still unclear how it happend but there's a lot of discussion in the media about Hubris and a very well preprared attack.
 
In Israel this is viewed as 9/11, it's still unclear how it happend but there's a lot of discussion in the media about Hubris and a very well preprared attack.
There's a supposition that 45 was made party to Israeli intelligence because he was President, he naturally told it all to his handler in the Kremlin, the Kremlin told Iran because they're buddies, and of course Iran supports Hamas.
 
There's a supposition that 45 was made party to Israeli intelligence because he was President, he naturally told it all to his handler in the Kremlin, the Kremlin told Iran because they're buddies, and of course Iran supports Hamas.
The fact that this seems believable, even if it's not, is concerning enough.
 
There's a supposition that 45 was made party to Israeli intelligence because he was President, he naturally told it all to his handler in the Kremlin, the Kremlin told Iran because they're buddies, and of course Iran supports Hamas.
Not a fan of his to say the least, but the reality is probably much more complex and I think it will be best to wait until the official investigation report to know the details.

Btw you guys probably don't know but the attack was done exactly 50 years (and 1 day) after the Yom Kipur war started, the most disastrous of Israel's wars. Israel's intelligence didn't anticipate the war and Israel was caught by complete surprise. As a result 2000+ soldiers died. The date of this attack is probably not coincidental.
 
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Does Israel want to do that? By which I mean its government. My knowledge of Israeli politics is extremely vague but it seems that the right-wing surge that Israel has experienced recently aren't the coexisting types.

Happy to be proven otherwise.
I think you maybe correct. Even the opposition political party believes the actions are to be expected and refused to condemn the Palestinian actions so until both side agree to speak with each other I don’t see this ending well.

 
This whole episode is very puzzling.

What does Hamas expect out of this? They, I assume, are a largely rational, if extreme group. And no, before you write off Hamas as as simply an irrational terrorist organization, they are also (badly) running a country. They reach the bar for a rational if ideological actor. They wouldn't plan something like this without at least considering the response. And what other scenario could they expect other than making a lot of noise and then getting absolutely ****ing hammered in retaliation. So did they plan this operation in order to accelerate their own demise and nothing else? It just seems implausible.

So who needs this conflict that Palestinians definitely do not?

It's good for Bibi, because he now has a righteous opportunity to conquer at least all of Gaza and put to bed the two-state solution which would see him become basically a mythical figure in the Orthodox community, let alone his own world view. Destroying the Palestinians seems like a life long dream for him, so this is nothing but good news here. So a few thousand Israelis may die, I struggle to see him caring. This is some old testament **** for Netanyahu. Israel does not have expansive borders and guarding the small borders they have is a full time focus for Israeli's security forces. It's basically unbelievable that this happened. However, it strains logic to think that Hamas would do this in some kind of coordination with Bibi, because the only outcome possible was massive retaliation.

It's good for Putin, particularly if the conflict escalates. The US has already sent a carrier group to, at least optics-wise, lend support for Israel. And if the conflict escalates and Israel genuinely needs help, there is zero question in my mind that the US will be there with boots on the ground if needed. Its a huge distraction from Ukraine who is only recently been close with the US. Israel is like a ride together, die together homeboy for life. Israel is already asking for weapons.

It's good for Iran and the IRGC who desperately, desperately need some kind of distraction for domestic issues that are once again boiling over. The Ayatollah's base is smaller and less enthusiastic than it used to be, a conflict with the Islamic Republic's arch foe could plausibly excite them to defend the mullahs at home. The other thing it helpfully does is set back the growing diplomatic ties between Saudi Arabia and Israel which would see Iran increasingly reduced in regional stature, which would be devastating for the ruling class.

My bet is that this was essentially orchestrated by Russia & Iran as a huge smoke screen with multiple objectives and they have each pledged Hamas some kind of hollow incentive...and I suspect that Netanyahu saw it coming and decided the benefits of letting it happen outweighed the costs.

Russia doesn't care about Hamas other than their utility as a distraction
Netanyahu cares a lot about destroying Hamas but is hemmed in by international community from just stomping them out
Iran cares about Hamas as far as Hamas is the enemy of it's enemy and any sustained conflict hurts the normalization of ties between Israel and the Arab world.
Russia needs Iran to help supply them for their war against Ukraine
Iran needs Russia to help them survive domestic and international pressure

Iran gets to hurt Saudi Arabia indirectly and doesn't really care about the outcome for Hamas & the Palestinians. The messier it gets, the better it is for Iran
Russia gets a distraction indirectly by way of western support for Israel, and doesn't give a **** about the outcome for Hamas & the Palestinians
Netanyahu gets to end Palestine.

There's a lot of overlapping and seemingly contradictory motivations here, but I think there is a tacit, if unspoken acceptance that this benefits all three parties.

The losers here, of course, are the Palestinian people and the Israeli people to a lesser extent.
One big issue here is that this causes all sorts of problems for the US. Hurting the US is also something that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and Russia are all very interested in, in any capacity, from political pain to directly attacking US forces. Call me an exceptionalist but ruining America and the West's global hegemony is a shared goal between all parties.

However, I disagree with you on American putting boots on the ground. I think we're going to do everything possible to avoid that. We'll show force, we'll send weapons, we're provide intel, we'll mediate, we'll do basically anything but are going to avoid putting boots on the ground at all costs, depsite the status quo rhetoric from our government. Problem is, Israel actually thinks we're going to waltz right in...



Hezbollah is not scared of the US getting directly involved because that accomplishes their goal of ruining the status quo the US and allies have established in the region, a goal shared with Hamas, Iran, and Russia.

This is all an absolute political cluster**** for America. Israel is once again a god-tier problem creator for us and they expect us to value their plot of dirt highly enough for us to throw away all the political gains we've made in the region since who knows when.
It's also possible that extremists just wanted to kill people. Islam promises religious warriors a place in heaven. And we have seen time and again that people are willing to murder indiscriminately for many causes, even without a game plan to benefit. The rational reward doesn't have to be "earthly". And sometimes the violence is itself enough of a reward.
That's plausible but I think this is way too convenient for our various other opponents to have been random act.

I really do think this is some sort of concerted effort against the US and EU to challenge our hegemony, create division, cause distraction, and generally muddy the waters. Israel isn't remotely a NATO candidate so bringing NATO into this doesn't make any sense, Israel is (supposedly) a strong US ally but their relationship with the EU is more complicated due to Palestinian issues so Europe is less likely to take a leading role, and the US must maintain positive relations with all the Islamic countries which all hate Israel to their core. In terms of global strategy, the US is the only real loser here.
 
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When will those humans learn to live in peace side by side. It's so stupid and unnecessary to fight each other.
 
These three things can be, and are, all true at the same time:

1. Palestinians deserve better and should be free from any illegal occupation and settlements by Israel.
2. Hamas is evil, anti-Semitic, anti-egalitarian, and should be eradicated.
3. Hamas is not representative of the average Palestinian and neither is Israel's far-right government for the average Israeli.

It's regrettable that many seem to be devolving this tragedy into team sports, blindly picking one side over the other. It's also a shame that "Free Palestine" sentiment is instantly conflated with condoning Hamas' actions, and that Israel can now do whatever the hell it wants in the name of self-defense, regardless of the amounts of casualties and destruction incurred. Sorry if this sounds like "both sides-ism", but more on the left should be calling out Hamas' unjustifiable violence (while distinguishing it from the Palestinian liberation movement), and everyone else should be cognizant that the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, for far too long, has also been nothing short of despicable.
 
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while distinguishing it from the Palestinian liberation movement
I'm not going to bother distinguishing it when their own Islamic brethren refuse to take in Palestinian refugees for very legitimate reasons.

This is why I maintain that they're all zealots and morons and I really wish my country would just stop caring and let them fight it out. My only real stance on the issue is that it causes a lot of problems for the US that we don't need.

Unlike the tweet from Israel insisting that the Americans would help, this message from America insists that Israel will be the one doing the fighting:

 
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Speaking of governments and elections, I wonder how many of these Lebanese folks evacuating have supported the Hezbollah political movement? That's an awful lot of people getting out.
 
Wrong. HAMAS is widely supported by brainwashed population of Gaza.

Its democratically elected government, what are you talking about?
The fact that Israel is a democracy, even ignoring the backsliding as of recent, doesn’t necessitate that it’s acting in the interest of its own electorate, let alone in a way that it broadly supports. Hell, when the Trump admin ended net neutrality, it was only supported by about 10% of people.
 
Lebanese folks
Wish them all good, no JDAMs at home. Another great nation ****ed by moronic government and ****ing radicals.
doesn’t necessitate that it’s acting in the interest of its own electorate
I am sure, that most of Israeli population are supporting boots on the ground in Gaza. Israel isn't in position where it could just ignore such things. And politics of isolation also was popular concept after massive wave of terrorism.
 


"We'll help but you have to act like we didn't"



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This is certainly the proper response. This is why me and my opinions aren't in charge of international politics lol. It's clear that "any party hostile" is referring immediately to Hezbollah.
 
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However, I disagree with you on American putting boots on the ground. I think we're going to do everything possible to avoid that. We'll show force, we'll send weapons, we're provide intel, we'll mediate, we'll do basically anything but are going to avoid putting boots on the ground at all costs, depsite the status quo rhetoric from our government. Problem is, Israel actually thinks we're going to waltz right in...
Not for the conflict in its current state, but if Iran started a full scale ground war with Israel, American troops would be on the ground.
 
Not for the conflict in its current state, but if Iran started a full scale ground war with Israel, American troops would be on the ground.
Sure, but that's a far-fetched idea. How they'd even pull that off I'm not sure because they're surrounded by countries with land, sea, and airspace unfriendly to Iran. There's no effective way for them to get there.
 
Sure, but that's a far-fetched idea. How they'd even pull that off I'm not sure because they're surrounded by countries with land, sea, and airspace unfriendly to Iran. There's no effective way for them to get there.
Based on my last check, Syria and Lebanon are VERY friendly with Iran.
 
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Based on my last check, Syria and Lebanon are VERY friendly with Iran.
But how are they going to get there, by driving right through Iraq? The two countries aren't that close, that the current barely-functioning government in Iraq would allow Iran to use them that easily. I doubt Iran has the airlift capabilities to fly an entire army to Syria and Lebanon and it would be extremely easy for Israel to counter. Seaborne attacks are not an option. Iran's only real options are aerial transport, ballistic missiles, or literally driving through Iraq, all of which require Iraq's permission.

They could certainly provide supplies indirectly but Iran getting directly involved is far-fetched.
 
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To be fair, Hamas embeds itself within the community on purpose. Israel sees that as a necessary cost rather than the US taking pains to avoid civilians and never accomplishing anything.

I'm aware of these things. I predicted that Israel would act with insufficient care, because it's what they do. It is counterproductive for all involved. To the extent that they think they're setting themselves up for a better future with this act, they are not. I don't like playing armchair general here, I don't know what the targets were or how important they were. But what I do know is that Israel has tried this many times, and it never works out.
 
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