Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Keef]

I'm not loving the way Biden is handling this.

What stands out about his methods? He's differentiated between Hamas and Palestinian civilians. He's told other groups not to be opportunistic. He's banded together with our allies to show unwavering support, and a Greek warship has now joint our flotilla in a show of force. Importantly, his words and the other words from the US government have skirted anything about us getting directly involved. Not sure how else this could be handled. Besides of course completely ending our relationship with Israel but that doesn't seem to be in the cards, and numerous friendly nations agree with our government.

Speaking of direct involvement:



Haven't I been saying something about WSJ being on the hotseat?

 

[Danoff]

What stands out about his methods? He's differentiated between Hamas and Palestinian civilians. He's told other groups not to be opportunistic. He's banded together with our allies to show unwavering support, and a Greek warship has now joint our flotilla in a show of force. Importantly, his words and the other words from the US government have skirted anything about us getting directly involved. Not sure how else this could be handled. Besides of course completely ending our relationship with Israel but that doesn't seem to be in the cards, and numerous friendly nations agree with our government.

Let's start with condemning the Israeli response for harming too many civilians. Let's talk about the humanitarian problems with laying siege to a city to find some terrorists.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

The only hope of that ever happening is for Israel to re-engage with Palestinian moderates in Gaza and the West Bank, and for the international community to do a lot more to broker peace between them first, and then for Palestinian moderates to oust Hamas. While Hamas and other Iranian proxies are in control, however, there is no chance of peace because Hamas (and likely also Iranian) doctrine is to eliminate Jews.

Netanyhu is a war criminal and under his leadership, Israel has become a violent oppressor. But AFAIK, nowhere in Israeli political or religious doctrine does Israel advocate for the eradication of the Palestinian people. However, Netanyhu and other Israeli extremists don't consider the notion of Palestine as a state existing, and that is a fundamental problem that continues to feed the cycle of violence on both sides. But that is fundamentally different to Israel advocating for the elimination of Muslims or Palestinians.

Change needs to happen on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides, and only a solution that serves both Israeli and Palestinian people satisfactorily will lead to a lasting peace.

-

I hate the idea of being labelled as an anti-Semite for criticising Israeli politicians or the behaviour of its government or military, but alas it is a very common charge. The irony is that critics of Isreali behaviour like ourselves are the ones who seem most interested in delivering lasting peace for everyone in the region. If being labelled an anti-Semite is the price to pay for that, then I guess it is a price worth paying.

Its high time that the US diplomatic policy towards Iran should be regime change. Short of that happening, the middle east will continue to stagger from crisis to crisis indefinitely. I'm not saying that the US should do that whole thing again, but we need to redouble our efforts to isolate and pressure the Islamic Republic. There is literally no chance of peace in the whole region until the Ayatollah is gone.

The other takeaway from this episode is that Hamas is truly a bad actor. This was not a military incursion which it seemed like it might have been at first, this was a straight up terrorist attack on a 9/11 scale. Whereas before you could maybe make a case for Hamas having a place in the future of Palestine, its clear to me now that they must be eliminated.

 

[Michael88]

Let's start with condemning the Israeli response for harming too many civilians. Let's talk about the humanitarian problems with laying siege to a city to find some terrorists.

Its far more than ''just a few terrorists'', they have sophisticated infra structure and the backing of a big chunk of the population to pull something like this off (lets not forget Hamas was democratically elected with 44.5% of the votes, and one of their official main goals is, and has always been the destruction of Israel). They smuggled and fired over 5000 rockets into Israel, from various launch sites in the middle of cities disguised as normal civilian buildings. That's not ''just a few terrorists.''

A lot of people don't realize how big such a coordinated attack is for such a small place like the Gaza strip.

 

[Keef]

Let's start with condemning the Israeli response for harming too many civilians. Let's talk about the humanitarian problems with laying siege to a city to find some terrorists.

I'm not sure that's possible in the current global political climate. I've mentioned several times that the US and our allies appearing rock solid in supporting self-defense is critical right now, mostly because of the Taiwan/Phillipines/Malaysia/Vietnam situation.

 

[Danoff]

Its far more than ''just a few terrorists'', they have sophisticated infra structure and the backing of a big chunk of the population to pull something like this off (lets not forget Hamas was democratically elected with 44.5% of the votes, and one of their official main goals is, and has always been the destruction of Israel). They smuggled and fired over 5000 rockets into Israel, from various launch sites in the middle of cities disguised as normal civilian buildings. That's not ''just a few terrorists.''

A lot of people don't realize how big such a coordinated attack is for such a small place like the Gaza strip.

"Some terrorists". I do not subscribe to the notion that the entire population is responsible for the Hamas attack, and so I don't condone careless bombing of civilian centers in response. I'm sure it takes quite a bit of coordination to pull off an attack like this, but this does not mean that world leaders should turn a blind eye to the responsive actions of the Israeli government. And that is exactly what it appears that Biden is doing, at least so far.

If your figures are right, more than 1 out of every 2 people in the region voted against Hamas. I'd like Biden to call out Israel for being careless.

I'm not sure that's possible in the current global political climate. I've mentioned several times that the US and our allies appearing rock solid in supporting self-defense is critical right now, mostly because of the Taiwan/Phillipines/Malaysia/Vietnam situation.

I'm sure our leadership could walk a more nuanced line.

 

[Keef]

Lots of false alarms going on in Israel today.

Regarding the reports about instructions to stay in protected areas throughout the country, this is a matter of human error, there is no such instruction.

You must continue to listen to the instructions of the Home Front Command that are being updated.

 

[TexRex]

Its far more than ''just a few terrorists'', they have sophisticated infra structure and the backing of a big chunk of the population to pull something like this off (lets not forget Hamas was democratically elected with 44.5% of the votes, and one of their official main goals is, and has always been the destruction of Israel). They smuggled and fired over 5000 rockets into Israel, from various launch sites in the middle of cities disguised as normal civilian buildings. That's not ''just a few terrorists.''

A lot of people don't realize how big such a coordinated attack is for such a small place like the Gaza strip.

Civilians' purported "wrongthink" isn't justification for slaughter, actually. It's possible for the initial terrorist attack and the less-than-measured (I mean I hope, but then it may have been measured and deliberate) retaliation by Israeli government forces to both be bad simultaneously.

 

[Michael88]

"Some terrorists". I do not subscribe to the notion that the entire population is responsible for the Hamas attack, and so I don't condone careless bombing of civilian centers in response. I'm sure it takes quite a bit of coordination to pull off an attack like this, but this does not mean that world leaders should turn a blind eye to the responsive actions of the Israeli government. And that is exactly what it appears that Biden is doing, at least so far.

If your figures are right, more than 1 out of every 2 people in the region voted against Hamas. I'd like Biden to call out Israel for being careless.

Gaza strip is incredibly densely populated and terrorists use civilians and fanatics as human shields, of course Israel has to destroy buildings that are secretly used for the manufacturing and storage of weapons and other equipment used by the Hamas against Israel and of course anyone who died in those attacks is labelled a civilian by Palestinians.

If you were hoping for Israel destroying official barracks and military buildings and dispatching official military personnel responsible for the attacks you are out of luck because you don't really find that in Gaza. That even happened in the Balkan wars, many fighters went to work every day and at dawn when they came home they picked up their rifle, hid in a tall building and spread terror by targeting civilians indiscriminately. Were they combatants? Were they civilians? Where do you draw the line?

Also nearly half the population supporting a party who made the destruction of their neighbors one of their main goals is pretty crazy and you can no longer put the blame for this situation on a couple extremists. Those who voted them into power knew exactly what they were in for, they were adults.

 

[TexRex]

Jesus Christ.

 

[Danoff]

Gaza strip is incredibly densely populated and terrorists use civilians and fanatics as human shields, of course Israel has to destroy buildings that are secretly used for the manufacturing and storage of weapons and other equipment used by the Hamas against Israel and of course anyone who died in those attacks is labelled a civilian by Palestinians.

If you were hoping for Israel destroying official barracks and military buildings and dispatching official military personnel responsible for the attacks you are out of luck because you don't really find that in Gaza. That even happened in the Balkan wars, many fighters went to work every day and at dawn when they came home they put on their uniform, picked up their rifle and spread terror by targeting civilians. Were they combatants? Were they civilians? Where do you draw the line?

It's a hard problem. It requires resources and effort, and maybe even some cooperation. It's not an easy problem, where we just pretend that we can bomb everyone and any hospital or school and just jog on.

One can agree with almost everything you just said and still come to the conclusion that careless bombing is unacceptable.

Also nearly half the population supporting a party who made the destruction of their neighbors one of their main goals is pretty crazy and you can no longer put the blame for this situation in a couple extremist individuals. Those who voted them into power knew exactly what they were in for.

I doubt that the people who voted for Hamas knew just exactly what they were in for. Certainly some of them. Maybe most of them. Possibly some who didn't vote for Hamas voted for something similar as well. So I have no doubt that at least half of the population supported something insane.

When you drop a bomb on civilians, you don't get to say "well they lived next to crazy people so the blame is on them". I'm particularly sensitive to this because I apparently live next to crazy people too.

 

[Touring Mars]

What stands out about his methods? He's differentiated between Hamas and Palestinian civilians. He's told other groups not to be opportunistic. He's banded together with our allies to show unwavering support, and a Greek warship has now joint our flotilla in a show of force. Importantly, his words and the other words from the US government have skirted anything about us getting directly involved. Not sure how else this could be handled. Besides of course completely ending our relationship with Israel but that doesn't seem to be in the cards, and numerous friendly nations agree with our government.

Speaking of direct involvement:



Haven't I been saying something about WSJ being on the hotseat?

Iran doesn't really need to involve themselves too directly with Israel - Hamas and Hezbollah are largely autonomous and independent, but they are also de facto Iranian proxies.

"Some terrorists". I do not subscribe to the notion that the entire population is responsible for the Hamas attack, and so I don't condone careless bombing of civilian centers in response.

Unfortunately, however, @Michael88 is right insofar as Hamas ruthlessly exploit the Gazan population and the density of the area to make retaliation against them effectively impossible without either a terrible ground invasion or by bombing buildings in spite of the collateral damage.

It is a well established tactic of Hamas to operate behind the shield of the Gazan population. Those who willingly voted for Hamas don't deserve any sympathy right now, but those who did not are sadly no better off. However, it is very hard - if not impossible - to respond to horrific Hamas aggression without harming those who didn't ask for this too.

 

[Danoff]

Unfortunately, however, @Michael88 is right insofar as Hamas ruthlessly exploit the Gazan population and the density of the area to make retaliation against them effectively impossible without either a terrible ground invasion or by bombing buildings in spite of the collateral damage.

It is a well established tactic of Hamas to operate behind the shield of the Gazan population. Those who voted for Hamas don't deserve any sympathy right now, but those who did not are sadly no better off. However, it is very hard - if not impossible - to respond to horrific Hamas aggression without harming those who didn't ask for this too.

I recognize that the problem is not an easy one. Let's not pretend that it is by bombing indiscriminately.

Edit:

Someone said of Hamas that since their problem is hard - they're out-gunned, they're out-organized, they haven't the infrastructure, resources, international support, or even support within their own population, that instead of fighting dirty, perhaps they should not fight.

The same is true of Israel. If they can't figure out how to fight humanely, they shouldn't fight. The answer is not just... fight inhumanely.


Edit 2:

I'm not under the notion that all collateral damage (including civilian casualties) is avoidable. I'm under the notion that one should try.

 

[Touring Mars]

I recognize that the problem is not an easy one. Let's not pretend that it is by bombing indiscriminately.

True. And yet it is not totally indiscriminate - Israel are targetting specific parts of Gaza, namely to the north, and have warned people in those areas to get out. Granted, however, they have done nothing to ensure that people could get out, citing that as Hamas' responsibility.

 

[Michael88]

One can agree with almost everything you just said and still come to the conclusion that careless bombing is unacceptable.



I doubt that the people who voted for Hamas knew just exactly what they were in for. Certainly some of them. Maybe most of them. Possibly some who didn't vote for Hamas voted for something similar as well. So I have no doubt that at least half of the population supported something insane.

When you drop a bomb on civilians, you don't get to say "well they lived next to crazy people so the blame is on them". I'm particularly sensitive to this because I apparently live next to crazy people too.

Of course, in fact wanton destruction only leads to radicalizing the civilian population who were neutral before the bombings, bolstering the ranks of the terrorists.
That's exactly what happened in Vietnam. Though I'm not sure why people think that Israel is now bombing random buildings, before all this they also destroyed many civilian looking infra structure that were in fact hiding places of extremists. I have seen mosques getting bombed but religious sites were always popular for recruitment and training of extremist groups because god protects those places - so this time that was probably the case as well.

Also I do absolutely think that vast majority of people knew exactly what they were voting for, why wouldn't they? They must know about the ties of that party to Iran and they know that Iran is a militarily pretty capable nation that absolutely loathes Israel. I mean you don't have to be a genius to know what they would eventually do, for years I expected some major attack on Israel funded by Iran.
Also you cannot smuggle 5000 rockets into a small place like this without having the support from a lot of people, I mean word did not get out despite the scope of this operation. That paints a pretty ugly picture as well.

The same is true of Israel. If they can't figure out how to fight humanely, they shouldn't fight. The answer is not just... fight inhumanely.

So if you are the target of savage attacks by people who want to destroy you and you cannot find a decent absolutely clean way to defend yourself from those attacks you give in and let them kill you? Or is there a misunderstanding? Because if you stop to fight those attackers keep coming.
That's not how rational people act and you cannot expect them to act like that, we are all programmed to survive and do whatever is necessary to ensure the continuation of our existence. Wars are dirty business and one should fight as humanely as possible, but in a defensive war goal number one is survival, everything else comes after.

 

[Danoff]

True. And yet it is not totally indiscriminate - Israel are targetting specific parts of Gaza, namely to the north, and have warned people in those areas to get out. Granted, however, they have done nothing to ensure that people could get out, citing that as Hamas' responsibility.

It's a fiction to suggest that people can just get out. "We think the attack came from that direction, let's level it" is indiscriminate enough for my taste. Warning people to leave actually underscores the idea that they're not targeting their adversary. Because their adversary will just leave. The ones who end up dead are not likely to be able-bodied terrorists.

If they knew exactly where the terrorists were, and if they were all in one place, they STILL wouldn't attack their adversary directly because they likely are holding hostages.

What they're doing is as you said earlier, collective punishment. And Hamas terrorists have already signed up for that and are fine with it. Israel needs a different approach.

Of course, in fact wanton destruction only leads to radicalizing the civilian population who were neutral before the bombings, bolstering the ranks of the terrorists.
That's exactly what happened in Vietnam. Though I'm not sure why people think that Israel is now bombing random buildings, before all this they also destroyed many civilian looking infra structure that were in fact hiding places of extremists. I have seen mosques getting bombed but religious sites were always popular for recruitment and training of extremist groups because god protects those places - so this time that was probably the case as well.

Non-falsifiable really. Maybe instead of bombing hospitals and schools, and the rest of as assuming they were secret terrorist camps, they should be trying to hit the actual people. Again, it's a hard problem, not an easy one that can be solved dropping ordinance on whatever might have a terrorist inside.

Also I do absolutely think that vast majority of people knew exactly what they were voting for, why wouldn't they? They must know about the ties of that party to Iran and they know that Iran is a militarily pretty capable nation that absolutely loathes Israel. I mean you don't have to be a genius to know what they would eventually do, for years I expected some major attack on Israel funded by Iran.

In the US many people are undereducated enough to vote for the dumbest of reasons. I can't imagine Gaza is different. Listen to a nice speech, read the right things in, vote. That's how it works basically everywhere.

Also you cannot smuggle 5000 rockets into a small place like this without having the support from a lot of people, I mean word did not get out despite the scope of this operation. That paints a pretty ugly picture as well.

Agreed. It's a tough problem that requires intelligent, careful, surgical effort. This is dumb, careless, and hamfisted.

 

[Michael88]

It's a fiction to suggest that people can just get out. "We think the attack came from that direction, let's level it" is indiscriminate enough for my taste. Warning people to leave actually underscores the idea that they're not targeting their adversary. Because their adversary will just leave. The ones who end up dead are not likely to be able-bodied terrorists.

If they knew exactly where the terrorists were, and if they were all in one place, they STILL wouldn't attack their adversary directly because they likely are holding hostages.

What they're doing is as you said earlier, collective punishment. And Hamas terrorists have already signed up for that and are fine with it. Israel needs a different approach.

Leading a clean war like that would be ideal, taking out the leaders and everyone responsible without civilian casualties or destruction of infra structure important for the survival of the civilian population. But its simply not realistic. Israel actually tried that to the best of their ability and look how that turned out. US also tried that in the middle east and it did not work out, partially because people switched from fighter to civilian-mode back and forth at will.

Israel is now defending themselves and their Intel is simply not good enough to keep Hamas at bay with surgical precision. Its probably not even possible. Its ugly but that's how it is, you cannot expect them to give up now and let Iran/Hamas destroy them.

In any case, I seriously doubt Israel is wasting time, ammunition and reputation on targets of no military value- they simply cannot afford that and it would be a nonsensical strategy.

 

[Danoff]

Leading a clean war like that would be ideal, taking out the leaders and everyone responsible without civilian casualties or destruction of infra structure important for the survival of the civilian population. But its simply not realistic. Israel actually tried that to the best of their ability and look how that turned out. US also tried that in the middle east and it did not work out, partially because people switched from fighter to civilian-mode back and forth at will.

Israel is now defending themselves and their Intel is simply not good enough to keep Hamas at bay with surgical precision. Its probably not even possible. Its ugly but that's how it is, you cannot expect them to give up now and let Iran/Hamas destroy them.

As I said:

If they can't figure out how to fight humanely, they shouldn't fight. The answer is not just... fight inhumanely.

Israel is not at risk of being destroyed.

In any case, I seriously doubt Israel is wasting time, ammunition and reputation on targets of no military worth - they simply cannot afford that and it would be a nonsensical strategy.

Just trust them? I have little more trust in Israel's moral compass than I do Hamas. I also don't see Israeli civilians any differently than Gazan civilians. Israel's strategy is pretty plain. Collective punishment that they hope will cause enough misery for people to refuse to support another such act. It doesn't work like that. The people who perpetuate these attacks are ready to sacrifice everything, including any innocent neighbors. Bombing those neighbors for the acts of terrorists won't change the mind of the terrorist, if anything it will convince them of the moral righteousness of their cause.

Terrorists have trouble fighting Israel directly, so they fight dirty. They should choose not to fight. Israel has trouble fighting terrorists directly, so they fight dirty. They should choose not to fight. Both sides cry "they're all guilty". And both sides thereby perpetuate their forever war.

 

[Touring Mars]

Egypt - by far the largest Arab country in the world - "has discussed plans with the United States and others to provide humanitarian aid through its border with the Gaza Strip, but rejects any move to set up safe corridors for refugees fleeing the enclave".

 

[MatskiMonk]

That's not how rational people act and you cannot expect them to act like that, we are all programmed to survive and do whatever is necessary to ensure the continuation of our existence. Wars are dirty business and one should fight as humanely as possible, but in a defensive war goal number one is survival, everything else comes after.

One could argue that is what Palestine has been trying to do ever since a bunch of countries with no skin in the game voted to divvy up Palestine against Palestine's will.

 

[omgitsbees]

Egypt - by far the largest Arab country in the world - "has discussed plans with the United States and others to provide humanitarian aid through its border with the Gaza Strip, but rejects any move to set up safe corridors for refugees fleeing the enclave".

I wish I understood the logic behind this. My knee jerk reaction is that it doesn't make a lot of sense, but also there are a couple things to keep in mind; Israel is intentionally bombing the checkpoints / corridors out of gaza, both into israel, and egypt, and Egypt may just not be able to take in a huge number of Palestinians. They would just be going from one horrible situation into another, and once they leave, they are no longer allowed back into Gaza / Israel. And if Egypt does open the corridor, they cannot guarrentee the safety of Palestinians, Israel at any time could start blowing up the crowds of people going through, this is not beneath them, they have done this before, and in the last few days.

Palestinians don't deserve any of this, my heart breaks for them and what they are going through. They are being used as pawns by multiple sides that do not care for their well being or humanity.

In any case, I seriously doubt Israel is wasting time, ammunition and reputation on targets of no military value- they simply cannot afford that and it would be a nonsensical strategy.

Would love for this to be true, but it is extremely not. Israel has reported war crimes / human rights violations going back decades, some of the most recent ones that are well documented include; snipers murdering peaceful protestors in gaza, and filling up wells with cement in the west bank, a truly barbaric situation considering west bank Palestinians only have at best, an emergency ration of water each day.

In Gaza since this last weekend, they have blown up Mosques, schools, hospitals, news media, destroyed ambulances, killed doctors / nurses, and then there is the fact that they have shut off all power and water to Gaza.

 

[inCloud]

Hamas was democratically elected with 44.5% of the votes

LoL. After that HAMAS democratically drop previous government from roof of highest building in Gaza.

documented include

By al jazeera?

 

[Danoff]

I wish I understood the logic behind this.

Don't let the terrorists out.

 

[omgitsbees]

LoL. After that HAMAS democratically drop previous government from roof of highest building in Gaza.

to add to this its been almost 18 years since that election, and Israel helped put hamas in power.

Don't let the terrorists out.

I mean fair, Israel's policy has actually been to let no one out of Gaza. The people living there do not have freedom of movement. What happened last Saturday was a complete and utter security failure on Israel's part and there is still a lot of new information coming out about it. Judging by interviews from Israeli survivors, they are not happy with their own government over the whole thing. Israeli government officials have built up a huge propaganda mechanism to convince their people that they are completely safe and something like this would never happen. As an American, this sounds very familiar.

But also like I don't think hamas is going to leave gaza and go into egypt if that is what you're referring to. that doesn't help them at all. And just in general I really don't think Israel is thinking about that, this is entirely about punishing Palestinians.

 

[Arthur-A]

Gaza strip is incredibly densely populated and terrorists use civilians and fanatics as human shields, of course Israel has to destroy buildings that are secretly used for the manufacturing and storage of weapons and other equipment used by the Hamas against Israel and of course anyone who died in those attacks is labelled a civilian by Palestinians.

If you were hoping for Israel destroying official barracks and military buildings and dispatching official military personnel responsible for the attacks you are out of luck because you don't really find that in Gaza. That even happened in the Balkan wars, many fighters went to work every day and at dawn when they came home they picked up their rifle, hid in a tall building and spread terror by targeting civilians indiscriminately. Were they combatants? Were they civilians? Where do you draw the line?

Also nearly half the population supporting a party who made the destruction of their neighbors one of their main goals is pretty crazy and you can no longer put the blame for this situation on a couple extremists. Those who voted them into power knew exactly what they were in for, they were adults.

I heard a similar rhetoric somewhere. Oh, right, that pretty much what Putin and his Kremlin scumbags are saying regarding their bombing of the Ukrainian cities.

 

[omgitsbees]

I heard a similar rhetoric somewhere. Oh, right, that pretty much what Putin and his Kremlin scumbags are saying regarding their bombing of the Ukrainian cities.

The United States said the same thing too when bombing cities in Afghanistan, and Iraq. I don't buy for a second that Israel is defending itself here. They got the justice they wanted, every hamas fighter that struck Israel on Saturday, and Sunday, is dead at this point. Justice has been served. At this point what Israel is doing is an act of revenge, bloodlust, and genocide. And tweets made by Israeli government officials (stating that their goal is to turn gaza into a tent city, along with shutting off the supply of water) backs this up.

 

[Michael88]

I heard a similar rhetoric somewhere. Oh, right, that pretty much what Putin and his Kremlin scumbags are saying regarding their bombing of the Ukrainian cities.

Oh and I absolutely do believe that they are hiding especially important equipment and people in buildings which are most likely not going to get attacked due to their special status. Of course not to the extent Putin claims of course, but its a tactic that has been used sporadically in a lot of wars.

On a side note, I'm absolutely rooting for Ukraine and hope Putin and his terrorist gang falls out of a window, anyone who has seen my post in the Ukraine war thread knows this - but believing Ukrainians are saints and don't do whatever it takes would be beyond naive.

 

[omgitsbees]

News related post but the Unity Government of Israel just had their first press conference: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...8d470000?liveBlogItemId=1010843993#1010843993

It was a lot of propaganda, and trying to justify their heinous acts of violence.

Netanyahu says alongside Gantz: 'We put all other considerations aside, as the fate of our country hangs in the balance'

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu delivered a statement on Wednesday after the Security Cabinet meeting and the formation of the emergency government with the National Unity party, stating that he responded to Benny Gantz's offer because "the fate of the country is at stake." Netanyahu added that "unity among the people in moments of grief and sorrow resonates worldwide. Hamas is like ISIS; we will crush and eliminate them just as they did with ISIS."

Defense Minister Gallant: This was barbarism we haven't experienced since the Holocaust; We will wipe Hamas off the face of the earth

Benny Gantz, who joined an emergency government with Netanyahu, stated on Wednesday that his cooperation with the government is "a clear message to our adversaries and to all Israeli citizens: all of us together are mobilizing." Gantz said after the Security Cabinet meeting in which he participated, "Just as people from left and right, from the city and the village, go out to fight, decisions of the government will also be made by people from different camps. Now, we are all one camp - the camp of the people of Israel."

Gantz: "We will exterminate Hamas by all means and without a trace. Our enemy's portion will be blood, fire and smoke - now is the time of war"

Some stuff I wanted to respond to. Netanyahu says the fate is Israel hangs in the balance. What evidence though? He doesn't cite any examples of how the state of Israel might cease to exist anytime soon. Israel has secured its borders with Gaza, and stopped all of the hamas terrorists that got out of gaza. Sounds like everything is okay now, so i'm still wondering why bombing hospitals, homes, and religious targets is necessary.

The claim of ISIS being eliminated is especially weird, I have very bad news for him; https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/the-state-of-al-qaeda-and-isis-in-2023

Isreal has all of the agency here, they could do any number of things like negotiate peace talks in good faith, something they have yet to try in all of the time they have been a country.

 

[Milouse]

For those of you who heard about the iconic girl body from the festival music, brought back in Gaza in a truck as a trophy to spit on: her mother said she had news that she'd would be in critical condition, but alive in a Gaza hospital.

Courtesy of everyone's favourite weird-balled incel:

Speaking about that, if someone has a bluesky invite code to share with me...

 

[Bram Turismo]

What is the world looking like when my children are my age. I dread it to be honest.

Waves and waves of refugees are flooding Europe. The social system is on its way to collapse. One part of the world is burning, the other one is drowning. And if it isn't burning or flooding, people are slaughtering each other over religion, or what they claim to be their rightful lands.

What is the world coming to.