Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Scaff]

It is NOT one bloody side,

I've apportioned blame to both sides...

but you are continuously refusing to apportion the appropriate amount of blame to a religion that was dreamt up by a war-mongering, slave-owning nonce and the undeniable fact that humans are, and always will be tribal.

...and managed to do so without resorting to bigotry (you should really check how much of you rant applies to the Tora/OT as well).

How do you explain the fact of the record increases in antisemitic incidents following Oct 7 apart from:

There has been a persistent inability and unwillingness to distinguish between Jews and the actions of Israel.

Very simply, an increase in antisemitic (and Islamaphobic - you can add yourself to that one) incidents is a measurable fact, the claim that no one (and that is the clear inference of the article in its entirety) can differentiate between Jews and the Jewish state isn't a fact. Not only is it patent nonsense, it's highly insulting to the large number of Jews who do just that. It's also a core tenet of Hasbara.

Whats ironic, is you are claiming (inaccuratly) that people don't differentiate between Jews and the actions of Israel, yet are quite happy (and above are using it as a key point) to not differentiate between Islam and the actions of Hamas. It's stunning hypocrisy and you don't even realise it.

This is not whataboutism.

It is, and you have done zero to demonstrate otherwise, it's a distraction.

Why do you think Israel's crimes have been singled out, and why at this moment?

They haven't, don't start a question with a false premise.

They are perfectly aligned.

I countered your claim that it was the only thing that led to Hamas being in their strong position in Gaza. They are just another part of the axis of resistance (although not as obviously as the likes of Hezbollah.)

Someone needs to go and have a bit of a read, but don't take my word for in, take the word of one of the people who was tasked with doing it.

"“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,”

Who also reported back internally "Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists"

Yes, Hamas existed before Israel funded them, but they amounted to nothing, and Fatah was too dominant in Palestinian territories for the Israelis, without funding Hamas would never have grown to challenge and bear Fatah, and then link up with Islamists outside the country, turning on Israel as they did and then forcing Israel's hand and further strengthening Hamas's position and overseas backing.

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It

Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.

theintercept.com

But that is one cause - it's not the sole cause, and....again....it puts all the blame on "the Jews".

No, it puts the blame on the Israeli state and the IDF, no one here has 'put all the blame on the Jews', and you know that.

 

[Imari]

It is NOT one bloody side, but you are continuously refusing to apportion the appropriate amount of blame to a religion that was dreamt up by a war-mongering, slave-owning nonce and the undeniable fact that humans are, and always will be tribal.

You talking about Judaism or Islam? Not that it really matters, they're all in the same family of Abrahamic religions so any differences are mostly swings and roundabouts.

Given your anti-Islamic history though, I suspect I know which one you're talking about even if you aren't aware enough to know that you didn't give enough information to specify.

Why do you think Israel's crimes have been singled out, and why at this moment?

Why is Israel getting singled out as opposed to, say, China and the Uighurs?

Well, let's think about this for a second. Israel made sure that the attack by Hamas was shared widely. Fair enough, they were the victims and they have the right to show everyone the terrible thing that was done to them. Israel then continued by very publically prosecuting a war against not only Hamas, but the entirety of Gaza including the civilian population. The whole world is aware of the Israel/Palestine situation, but mostly ignores it unless something serious happens. The Israeli army invading and killing tens of thousands of civilians is something serious, and there's tons of footage and reporting happening on it.

Compare this to the Uighurs. What China is doing may well be worse, but they've gone to incredible lengths to ensure that reliable information is hard to come by. There's limited first hand video, and the reporting on it tends to be vague and poorly substantiated. There's clearly something going on, but it's really hard to tell exactly what, and they've slow rolled a lot of it over nearly a decade. That makes it far less impactful than a war that went from 0 to 100 in less than a month.

That's why. When a man beats his wife in the street, people step in. When a man beats his wife at home, maybe people hear some thumping and shouting but they probably don't intervene. They're not sure exactly what's going on, and they don't want to charge into someone else's house making accusations without solid proof and even then it's iffy.

Israel is proudly handing out proof of what they're doing. China is not. In the international court of public opinion, that makes a difference. Also the International Criminal Court, where presumably having objective evidence is looked upon favourably.

Why are Israel's crimes being singled out at this moment? Because now is when it's happening. Duh. Come on, bro. A 2 year old could have figured that one out.

Breaking it down further, we've imported the politics of the Middle East (among other tribal things) and don't have a clue on how to deal with it. See also the Montreal riots.

Because Canada never had riots before they "imported the politics of the Middle East", right?

Get off it. People protest, people riot, people have been doing that for literally millenia. That's nothing to do with the Middle East other than that happens to be one of the things that specific protest was about.

 

[Scaff]

Why is Israel getting singled out

What he also seems to be ignoring is that the ICC didn't just issue a warrant for Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant , but also for Mohammed Deif.

Add in that one of key judges involved is Theodor Meron, a holocaust survivor that Netanyahu has basically accused of being antisemitic!

Theodor Meron - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[GranTurNismo]

Former NY governor Andrew Cuomo- who has been hinting a return to politics, possibly a senate run- to join Benjamin Netanyahu's legal defense team, calls the ICC "anti-semitic":

Said to be mulling NYC mayor run, Andrew Cuomo joins 'dream team' to defend Netanyahu

Lawyer Alan Dershowitz convened the team to defend the prime minister of Israel as he faces international war crime charges over Israel's actions in Gaza.

gothamist.com

 

[UKMikey]

‘Tired of writing about dead kids’: why a US state department worker resigned over Israel-Gaza policy

Mike Casey, one of only two people explicitly focused on Gaza, left over inaction and doing ‘what the Israelis want’

www.theguardian.com

"I got so tired of writing about dead kids," he said. "Just constantly having to prove to Washington that these children actually died and then watching nothing happen."

 

[GranTurNismo]

45 house Democrats join all house Republicans in voting to sanction the ICC for its arrest warrant against Netanyahu.

Forty-Five Democrats Join Republicans to Pass Sanctions On ICC Over Netanyahu Arrest Warrant

Brian Mast (R-FL), a steadfast supporter of Israel, slammed the ICC for “legitimizing the false accusations of Israeli war crimes.”

www.mediaite.com

 

[DK]

 

[UKMikey]

Guardian: Quaker group pulls NYT ad over paper’s refusal to let it call Israel’s Gaza bombing 'genocide':

https://theguardian.com/media/2025/jan/08/new-york-times-ad-cancel-gaza-genocide

 

[GranTurNismo]

https://theguardian.com/media/2025/jan/08/new-york-times-ad-cancel-gaza-genocide

You're not allowed to publicly oppose Israel in the United States, no exceptions. It's really that simple.

 

[Liquid]

The USA sanctioning a body it isn't party to (because it doesn't want to be on the hook) is very on-brand.

 

[GranTurNismo]

The USA sanctioning a body it isn't party to (because it doesn't want to be on the hook) is very on-brand.

Multilateralism is dead. If you can't investigate a blatant genocide without the world superpower immediately punishing you then what's the point. The "rules based international order" has become a bad joke- these people will vote to sanction the ICC, yet have the gall to preach freedom, democracy and the rule of law to the rest of the world. Ukraine is getting scraps to defend against a war of aggression while Israel doesn't even need to ask for more weapons so they can bomb their neighbors and seize territory from governments that may have had a chance of improving relations with then. It's beyond ridiculous.

It's also worth pointing out that both George Latimer and Wesley Bell, the freshmen Democratic reps who unseated progressives Jamaal Bowman and Cori Bush respectively, in large part due to receiving eight-figure campaign contributions from AIPAC, both voted to sanction the ICC. And both of these reps are in heavily blue districts. How is this not a foreign government literally meddling in our affairs?

It may seem like, by now, that Israel is a massive political liability to the United States, but for an astronomical amount of congresspeople, AIPAC is their single largest donor. Another massive group of politicians are in bed with defense contractors - General Dynamics literally bragged about how what's going on in the Middle East is good for their bottom line in an earnings call. Lockheed, RTX, all of them all produced substantial financial returns for their shareholders as a result of Israel's actions in Gaza (and the West Bank). There's no financial incentive for politicians that comes from supporting the Palestinians. On the contrary, if you are a politician that even tepidly speaks out against Israel, AIPAC is quite likely to primary you in the next election.

 

[Liquid]

it may seem like, by now, that Israel is a massive political liability to the United States

Near as makes no difference, Israel is the 51st parasite.

 

[GranTurNismo]

 

[Fezzik]

Details of potential ceasefire and hostage releases

Reuters is now also carrying what it says is an outline of the proposed deal between Israel and Hamas, according to information it has received from an Israeli official and a Palestinian official.

It reports the first phase entails:

• 33 hostages would be set free. These include children, women including female soldiers, men above 50, wounded and sick. Israel believes most are alive but has had no official confirmation
• On the 16th day from the deal taking effect, negotiations would start on a second stage, with the aim of securing the return of the remaining living hostages – male soldiers and younger civilian males – and the return of the bodies of dead hostages
• In return for the hostages, Israel will free from its jails a significant number of Palestinian prisoners, although exactly how many will depend on how many hostages are still alive. The two officials have given Reuters slightly differing indications of how many – the Israeli official said the number would be “many hundreds”, while the Palestinian official said it would be more than 1,000
• Where the prisoners would be sent has not yet been agreed but anyone convicted of murder or deadly attacks would not be released to the Israeli-occupied West Bank, and anyone who took part in the 7 October 2023 attack on Israel would not be released
• Israel will not fully withdraw its troops from Gaza until all the hostages have been returned but there will be a phased pull back, with Israeli forces remaining in the border perimeter to defend Israeli border towns and villages
• There would be security arrangements at the Philadelphi corridor bordering Egypt, along the southern edge of Gaza, with Israel withdrawing from parts of it after the first few days of the deal
• Unarmed North Gaza residents would be allowed back, with a mechanism to ensure no weapons are moved there, and the Rafah crossing between Egypt and Gaza will start to work gradually. There would be a significant increase of humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip.

 

[Tornado]

Biden really gonna go down as the second worst President in history, lmao.

 

[DK]

The ceasefire will start too late for at least 70 Palestinians, as Israeli airstrikes killed them this morning.

 

[Joey D]

Probably because it's only a "ceasefire" and not a real ceasefire, Israel is just going to rearm and reposition before it makes up some excuse to start killing Palestinians again. Trump is probably going to encourage Israel to do it too, and with the green light from Israel's sugar daddy, they're going to wipe Palestine off the map.

Also, I'm willing to bet the Trump and his team has something to do with the hostages. This is way too similar to the October Surprise to be anything else.

 

[opelgt1969]

Probably because it's only a "ceasefire" and not a real ceasefire, Israel is just going to rearm and reposition before it makes up some excuse to start killing Palestinians again. Trump is probably going to encourage Israel to do it too, and with the green light from Israel's sugar daddy, they're going to wipe Palestine off the map.

Also, I'm willing to bet the Trump and his team has something to do with the hostages. This is way too similar to the October Surprise to be anything else.

But your God Biden is responsible so shut up and don't blame Trump. They are way too many people blaming crap on Trump on here. We the people were tired of Obama running the show why do you think Trump won we were sick of the show that has been going on.Read/Listen to the news Biden 2nd worst president ever.So get over it or do like a lot of other liars are saying everywhere we're leaving the USA. I would also like proof that it was Biden on the press conference and not Obama's AI. Biden really needs to have a mental check-up.

 

[McLaren]

Biden 2nd worst president ever.

Damn, Trump's still #1? Awesome.

Biden really needs to have a mental check-up.

Coming from a guy who just said, "I want proof it wasn't Obama's AI".

 

[Scaff]

They are way too many people blaming crap on Trump on here.

Do you mean like him bailing on multiple campaign promises before he's even officially in office?

 

[Famine]

Quick, find a way to blame the black guy!

 

[Joey D]

But your God Biden is responsible so shut up and don't blame Trump. They are way too many people blaming crap on Trump on here. We the people were tired of Obama running the show why do you think Trump won we were sick of the show that has been going on.Read/Listen to the news Biden 2nd worst president ever.So get over it or do like a lot of other liars are saying everywhere we're leaving the USA. I would also like proof that it was Biden on the press conference and not Obama's AI. Biden really needs to have a mental check-up.

You think I liked Biden? That's really, really funny and cute. I'm not a Democrat, not even close, and I hate Biden. I just don't like Trump because he's an unconstitutional asshole who hired an illegal immigrant from South Africa to run the country. And no, I'm not going to read or listen to the news to get my understanding of what's going on. The news media sane-washed Trump so much that people actually thought that a felonious asshole was going to lower the price of groceries. I'm kind of over the media because it's just a vehicle to allow rich people to tell poor people how to think. But I do look at source information and make up my own mind. Statistics show that Biden isn't the worst president, not by a long shot, but I don't think he was a great president by any means. He's probably somewhere in the middle. The worst presidents are either James Buchanan or Andrew Johnson, but Trump is among the three worst presidents ever to hold office. Warren Harding, Herbert Hoover, and Richard Nixon are all up there too.

Look, I know you're too busy thinking about the sex lives of underage girls, but maybe, just maybe, if you read any posts at all, you'd know that I'm not even close to a Biden lover or a Democrat.

Also, I work with AI; it's not good enough to fake Biden mainly because Biden has the correct number of fingers and didn't have an eye growing out his ear.

 

[UKMikey]

Read/Listen to the news Biden 2nd worst president ever.So get over it or do like a lot of other liars are saying everywhere we're leaving the USA. I would also like proof that it was Biden on the press conference and not Obama's AI. Biden really needs to have a mental check-up.

 

[opelgt1969]

Quick, find a way to blame the black guy!

Do you really think sleepy Joe ever was in charge he was just a puppet for Obama. If more people would quit with their bias opinions this would be a lot better forum topic. All I read is people bashing people with a different opinion. No Trump wasn't worst that goes to Nixon.

 

[Famine]

Do you really think sleepy Joe ever was in charge he was just a puppet for Obama.

I thought Trump won in 2020 and was in charge the whole time? Although I guess that would mean he couldn't win in 2024 because, you know, two-term limit in the Constitution. I kind of get lost with all the insane cope the Trumpers come up with.

Obama definitely hasn't been in charge of anything though. You can tell because his first eight years aged him about 20 years, and he doesn't seem to have got any older since.

Most Presidents get a lot older-looking, very quickly. I guess those who were already old and don't spend a full 1/4 of their whole term on a golf course don't show it so much.

Still, the guys for whom racism isn't a deal-breaker gotta find a way to blame the black guy, even if it is the magic bogeyman of AI.

 

[GranTurNismo]

You think I liked Biden? That's really, really funny and cute. I'm not a Democrat, not even close, and I hate Biden. I just don't like Trump because he's an unconstitutional asshole who hired an illegal immigrant from South Africa to run the country. And no, I'm not going to read or listen to the news to get my understanding of what's going on. The news media sane-washed Trump so much that people actually thought that a felonious asshole was going to lower the price of groceries. I'm kind of over the media because it's just a vehicle to allow rich people to tell poor people how to think. But I do look at source information and make up my own mind. Statistics show that Biden isn't the worst president, not by a long shot, but I don't think he was a great president by any means. He's probably somewhere in the middle. The worst presidents are either James Buchanan or Andrew Johnson, but Trump is among the three worst presidents ever to hold office. Warren Harding, Herbert Hoover, and Richard Nixon are all up there too.

Look, I know you're too busy thinking about the sex lives of underage girls, but maybe, just maybe, if you read any posts at all, you'd know that I'm not even close to a Biden lover or a Democrat.

Also, I work with AI; it's not good enough to fake Biden mainly because Biden has the correct number of fingers and didn't have an eye growing out his ear.

Fascism necessitates a strict ingroup/outgroup mentality. If you're against Trump, then you're effectively for Biden. It doesn't matter whether you're a right-libertarian who also despises Biden or a woke Marxist lefty, or anywhere in between. There's no such thing as any legitimate criticisms of or dissent towards the cult leader.

 

[McLaren]

If more people would quit with their bias opinions

Do you really think sleepy Joe ever was in charge he was just a puppet for Obama.

 

[Joey D]

Do you really think sleepy Joe ever was in charge he was just a puppet for Obama. If more people would quit with their bias opinions this would be a lot better forum topic. All I read is people bashing people with a different opinion. No Trump wasn't worst that goes to Nixon.

No, we bash stupid hot takes, not different opinions. Lots of people here have different views on things, and we manage to discuss it just fine, but when you come in here screaming that it's all the black guy's fault and that the current president is nothing but AI, you're going to get laughed at.

Fascism necessitates a strict ingroup/outgroup mentality. If you're against Trump, then you're effectively for Biden. It doesn't matter whether you're a right-libertarian who also despises Biden or a woke Marxist lefty, or anywhere in between. There's no such thing as any legitimate criticisms of or dissent towards the cult leader.

I'm sure it's part of a fascist takeover, but the whole mentality has been like that for a long time. Just look at what happens when someone says they're voting third party. In this past election, if you voted third party, you were going to be responsible for Trump winning or losing and, at the same time, for Harris winning or losing. I've said to to people that I don't like Biden and they instantly think I'm a Trumpster, and when I say I don't like Trump they think I'm some kind of liberal.

Hell, it goes beyond politics and it's especially prevalent now with social media amplifying everything. It's hard to criticize anything without being labeled a hater or a supporter of the other side. From sports, to video games, to movies, to fashion, it seems to be getting harder and harder to go against whatever the group thinks. And god forbid you're opinion draws the ire of the perpetually online crowd because they're going to do everything they can to "cancel" you because you don't think like them. I'm not talking about just about wokeness either, it goes well beyond that.

Really, you only get safe bastion from that when you find a group of individuals that understand and listen to different ideas and opinions. It's one reason I've stuck around GTP for so long despite not playing many sim racing games. There's a core group here that are capable of talking about ideas and criticizing things without being labeled as hater.

 

[opelgt1969]

No, we bash stupid hot takes, not different opinions. Lots of people here have different views on things, and we manage to discuss it just fine, but when you come in here screaming that it's all the black guy's fault and that the current president is nothing but AI, you're going to get laughed at.

I'm sure it's part of a fascist takeover, but the whole mentality has been like that for a long time. Just look at what happens when someone says they're voting third party. In this past election, if you voted third party, you were going to be responsible for Trump winning or losing and, at the same time, for Harris winning or losing. I've said to to people that I don't like Biden and they instantly think I'm a Trumpster, and when I say I don't like Trump they think I'm some kind of liberal.

Hell, it goes beyond politics and it's especially prevalent now with social media amplifying everything. It's hard to criticize anything without being labeled a hater or a supporter of the other side. From sports, to video games, to movies, to fashion, it seems to be getting harder and harder to go against whatever the group thinks. And god forbid you're opinion draws the ire of the perpetually online crowd because they're going to do everything they can to "cancel" you because you don't think like them. I'm not talking about just about wokeness either, it goes well beyond that.

Really, you only get safe bastion from that when you find a group of individuals that understand and listen to different ideas and opinions. It's one reason I've stuck around GTP for so long despite not playing many sim racing games. There's a core group here that are capable of talking about ideas and criticizing things without being labeled as hater.

This post really describes you and your opinions. I'm not a Trumpster I unlike most voted for what I think is the leaser of 2 evils

 

[Exorcet]

All I read is people bashing people with a different opinion.

Different opinions have coexisted on this site for years. Holding different views doesn't lead to bashing.

No Trump wasn't worst that goes to Nixon.

Nixon resigned when he got caught. Trump kept on trying to break the country. Trump is the worst thing to happen to the US.