It's now March; where is our promised community update?

[vasiliflame]

lmao, this must be your first rodeo, news flash WE are the alpha and the beta testers.

Fact we are not beta testers period. I bought a retail game at version 1 there has be no communication that the game is in its beta phase , we bought a final retail game that was advertised as a final product .. Just because it so so buggy does not mean its a beta game...

If that is correct and it is in beta like you said , I am within my right to go to my solicitor and put a lawsuit against Sony/pd for false advertising and get a big payout. The simple fact is the game is below par and basically gt5 spec3 with most of its features stripped off...

I was lucky enough to be part of the 1st 200 people to revive a playstation network adaptor from Sony directly with a headset and a copy of socom navy seals an headset etc , we had direct communication with the beta test team and we solved a hell of a lo of problems , when I first logged on the was 17 people online in the whole UK , Sony treated us all with respect sent us free games lots of beta discs that I still have a ps2 eye camera and most of all a lot of communication.

Fact is the disc went gold when it shouldn't even be brass GT6 IS NOT A BETA!

 

[Lawndart]

You made me curious now Lawndart on which games you produced? Big scale or smaller scale games?


I don't really care seeing i didn't bother with GT6, but if they update it next week like you say; I hope they fix a lot of the broken stuff and release missing features on top of handing out new goodies, as i think people are more eager for those things. You know anything about this also?

Most might just ignore this question, but this community has seemed to appreciate my contributions and I thought how I might answer this... Without bluntly stating who I am, so I'll mention some of the products I had varying roles on in the first 5 years of my 20 year career, across different companies...

Descent series, Fallout Series, Balders Gate series, Quake Series, Unreal Series, etc. the following 15 years had many larger productions and some smaller ones... I've probably been involved with around 50 productions in my time.

I've been awarded a BAFTA in 2006 and my racing has been sponsored by 2 major publishers. 1 when I raced sport bikes, more recently in cars.

Kaz means something to me quite different to me than anyone else here, he reminds me of a time long past when games were more about art than analytics. When our mantra was "let's make a game we want to play, and everyone else will want to as well". Its nostalgic, but at the same time very frustrating as I've mastered the 'knowledge' Kaz has not developed, the true understanding of organization of very creative AAA projects. The reality that games don't grow, they evolve much like children, and how to foster that evolution, not try and control it.

For years I was looked at as the industries leader in logistics, publishers wanted me as an insurance policy for all their developments. And if Kaz called me to enquire how to structure, define, and align to his business models and mandates, I'd likely drop everything to help... And could confidently state that I could define execution of his vision to fully realize it in both his own, and customers eyes. But, if he read some of my complaints here he would likely think I was poison

So it's with a special understanding that is nearly bipolar inducing that I express my views and observations. I consider the fact that I can be 100% customer right now a luxury more anything else.

 

[eran0004]

No one outright lies. Not even Kaz. Something gets considered a lie when something is stated and an unreasonable amount of time has passed with no communication. The rule to managing expectations is communication. Not much different than telling your wife when you will be home... If you say for dinner, and you show up in the middle of the night? She's pissed! But if you call around the expected time and explain your late, even with minimal explanation, her expectations are calibrated. She might not like it, but she will understand and focus on the next deadline.

I have no doubt Kaz intends (at the time) to make good on everything he says... But the road to hell is paved in good intentions. He also tries to not talk about risky things, but he does... And he also likes to bring up vision a lot... Customers dissect vision and create their own assumption of what it means... And with little communication otherwise... The hype train builds in momentum.

That makes it a lack of communication and possibly a divorce, but it doesn't make it a lie. If your intention was to stay out all night when you said "dinner", then that would be a lie.

And in this case (community update) not much is clear of what was being said exactly. The only source I've found is the GTPlanet twitter feed that says that it will be launched in the "January update". But if that was a clear statement at the presentation, why is the following question from the interview afterwards worded like this:

You mentioned the Senna content in May, can you give us any sort of timeline as to when we can expect the other major features to be released, such as the Course Maker, online community features, etc.?

“We don’t have a definite order yet of things, but, you know, January, February, March, April, May, etc., we have updates planned for each of those months, and there are actually more things too which we still can’t mention! [Laughs.]

“We do already have a big update coming in December, and in January there will probably be two big updates. And that’s because there’s a lot of things, such as the unveiling of new cars, which we have no control over.”

On the official website, which is the official communication channel, it says "forthcoming update", no month specified.

 

[eSZee]

The raw numbers are fine.

However, your interpretation implies that GT underselling relative to AC4 at this point in time is a disaster in light of the total sales such games are expected to achieve over their lifetime.

What you either deliberately omitted, or simply didn't consider, is that a GT game burns much longer than a game like AC. The latter has a huge hump and then practically nothing, whilst GT has a hump and then a very long tail. That's where the big numbers come from for all the GT games.

Sure, GT6 is unlikely to sell as well as GT5, but the console game environment is nowhere near the same for either game. Even if it were, it would be hard to pinpoint the difference in sales - they could be the exact same product, in terms of expectations, and sell different amounts, just depending on what the public is feeling at the time.


But sales are actually irrelevant anyway, for many reasons. Just one being the phenomena responsible for some of the best games I've played (and widely regarded as such) being abject commercial "failures".

I'm aware that GT games sell well over long periods but I also know that they have huge sales numbers very early in their life.
Actually, if you looked at AC sales and compare them to GT sales, the trends are pretty much the same. The overall totals are just different. Both games sell about half their overall totals in the first 4-5 weeks with the other 50% spread out over extended periods. GT5 sold 5m within the 1st month, and another 5m or so til today. AC3 sold ~2.7m over the first month and another 2.7m til today.
If I haven't mentioned the 5.5m vs 9m+ in my post, which I shouldn't have, we wouldn't be having this chat.

 

[CeeJay]

Most might just ignore this question, but this community has seemed to appreciate my contributions and I thought how I might answer this... Without bluntly stating who I am, so I'll mention some of the products I had varying roles on in the first 5 years of my 20 year career, across different companies...

Descent series, Fallout Series, Balders Gate series, Quake Series, Unreal Series, etc. the following 15 years had many larger productions and some smaller ones... I've probably been involved with around 50 productions in my time.

dang it's amazing to talk to someone who had a hand in causing my gaming addiction!! Unreal, Quake, Descent.. great memories!! Big thanks for all of your work man

I am really getting more worried about GT6 and the promised updates now. 8 days left in Feb without much from PD..

 

[wowbaggerBR]

Not all fans are angry and/or disappointed. As mentioned previously, it appears to be a vocal minority. I have yet to come across any game breaking bugs or issues.

If PD doesn't want to communicate or interact, that's their decision. I am happy to wait for further content and features, it doesn't bother me whether a set date is announced for those or not.

The sales aren't that great, so one could argue that we aren't that small minority.

 

[Lawndart]

That makes it a lack of communication and possibly a divorce, but it doesn't make it a lie. If your intention was to stay out all night when you said "dinner", then that would be a lie.

And in this case (community update) not much is clear of what was being said exactly. The only source I've found is the GTPlanet twitter feed that says that it will be launched in the "January update". But if that was a clear statement at the presentation, why is the following question from the interview afterwards worded like this:



On the official website, which is the official communication channel, it says "forthcoming update", no month specified.

Right or wrong, if the majority expectation is A, then the messaging amounted to A, regardless of any words. Anything else is an excuse.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know the Oz behind the curtains. And for what its worth, I have expectations that aren't being met, I have a HUGE benefit of the doubt but my expectations were not created by my wants, they were placed there.

Beyond what you read on GT p, I've been to all the major stage shows and presentations.

My expectations where carefully managed by PD with every message released by Sony and pd being caveated by "post support". So my expectations for what was in the disk were minimal. But my expectations for what was 'promised' are being tested by the fact that nearly a quarter of a year has passed with nothing but obligatory patches and some marketing assets.

Let's also clear up what 'promise' means while we are debating semantics. Anything a company states is a promise, supports an expectation. It's the very nature of why PR exists... Companies don't casual discuss what they would like to do openly, they talk about what they are going to do... And sometimes they share how...

Kaz walks a dangerous line when discussing vision that few other in the industry do. 99% of everything you hear is tailored very carefully. Just a simple statement has a battery of approvals.

The only reason people are so restless here is because we are all fans with a very genuine and vested interest in GT succeeding, if for no other reason than to selfishly enjoy the product.

Trust me when I say, I read all the complaints of my products far more than the complements. But truth be told, I don't have time to read many forums for my own games, I rely on guys like Jordan to keep me updated.

If I were Kaz, or Sony, this is likely what Jordan would be telling me;
1) People are really anxious for more feature updates.
2) more so in recent weeks the community is getting very restless due to some of the statements made around release regarding online and other core features and not knowing the state of them or when they are coming
3) GT 7 is becoming a larger topic due to the lack of any forward communications on GT 6.

And I might ask for examples to forward to my marketing and PR folks. Each of these simple statements are massively telling beyond the words.

But why don't I have time to spend on forums? Because I'm on other forums about what ever it is I'm currently playing... After all, we developers are all gamers too... Actually that's not true anymore... There are so many in our industry that actually aren't anymore... Its sad really.

Do you guys like The Last of us? It bored the hell out of me... I've played that game at least 4 times before, many years ago... Its sad how few real game vets are not making games anymore, but I digress.

Even the guys here who freely admit they never bought GT 6 are still here... And they are the real model of patience... And as such I respect what they have to say (even if it lacks context) as they will be the next to buy GT 6 when pd make good on their promises... Whose the smarter here, us who bought GT 6, or those that are waiting for key expectations to be filled before buying it? Even I'm wearing pie on my face...

It's never good when someone can sum up your game in a few bullet points, sadder when none of those points expand on features from the previous iteration...

 

[vasiliflame]

dang it's amazing to talk to someone who had a hand in causing my gaming addiction!! Unreal, Quake, Descent.. great memories!! Big thanks for all of your work man

I am really getting more worried about GT6 and the promised updates now. 8 days left in Feb without much from PD..

Well they did update the seasonal's on gt5 lol

 

[Lawndart]

dang it's amazing to talk to someone who had a hand in causing my gaming addiction!! Unreal, Quake, Descent.. great memories!! Big thanks for all of your work man

I am really getting more worried about GT6 and the promised updates now. 8 days left in Feb without much from PD..

I like to look at it like I made people's lives more enjoyable vs addiction

What's going on in the social and mobile space, the abuse of 40+ year old woman's phycological disorders just kills any reason I ever had when I fought to get in the industry.

But I'm happy to hear you enjoyed them. You would be appalled to know how many people in game companies today are too young to even have played them, let alone even heard of them.

 

[Steve Mcqueen]

I thought we where supposed too have 2 updates a month it's getting closer too the end of this one and no update.... Just sayin

 

[Streeto]

The sales aren't that great, so one could argue that we aren't that small minority.

Taking into account the active members on this site that comment about these things, and the amount of copies sold, we probably make up less than 1% of the fanbase.

 

[Vagabond]

Taking into account the active members on this site that comment about these things, and the amount of copies sold, we probably make up less than 1% of the fanbase.

That's true but we are the vocal minority; that's not to say that we represent a minority view, only that we are the ones that choose to have a voice in an online community. It has always been the case that a vocal minority express the views of the majority. Look at demonstrations against controversial legislation for instance. You can have 10s of thousands attending - a good number of people but a tiny percent of the actual population. Do they represent a minority or are they simply the active minority who represent the majority view?

Its the same with most product review too - if 20 people write a review and 18 of them give it 1 star, the assumption is that it's a poor product. Do we assume that only 20 people bought it? Do we assume that the possible hundreds or thousands that bought it but didn't say anything thought it was great, or assume that they agree with the 18 people who gave it a bad review but just couldn't be bothered saying anything?

The only way to know for sure here would be a poll or referendum of all current GT6 owners but its not likely that a game company would bother with such an undertaking. Instead they use online communities to gauge the reaction of their customer base.

 

[sk8er913]

Right or wrong, if the majority expectation is A, then the messaging amounted to A, regardless of any words. Anything else is an excuse.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know the Oz behind the curtains. And for what its worth, I have expectations that aren't being met, I have a HUGE benefit of the doubt but my expectations were not created by my wants, they were placed there.

Beyond what you read on GT p, I've been to all the major stage shows and presentations.

My expectations where carefully managed by PD with every message released by Sony and pd being caveated by "post support". So my expectations for what was in the disk were minimal. But my expectations for what was 'promised' are being tested by the fact that nearly a quarter of a year has passed with nothing but obligatory patches and some marketing assets.

Let's also clear up what 'promise' means while we are debating semantics. Anything a company states is a promise, supports an expectation. It's the very nature of why PR exists... Companies don't casual discuss what they would like to do openly, they talk about what they are going to do... And sometimes they share how...

Kaz walks a dangerous line when discussing vision that few other in the industry do. 99% of everything you hear is tailored very carefully. Just a simple statement has a battery of approvals.

The only reason people are so restless here is because we are all fans with a very genuine and vested interest in GT succeeding, if for no other reason than to selfishly enjoy the product.

Trust me when I say, I read all the complaints of my products far more than the complements. But truth be told, I don't have time to read many forums for my own games, I rely on guys like Jordan to keep me updated.

If I were Kaz, or Sony, this is likely what Jordan would be telling me;
1) People are really anxious for more feature updates.
2) more so in recent weeks the community is getting very restless due to some of the statements made around release regarding online and other core features and not knowing the state of them or when they are coming
3) GT 7 is becoming a larger topic due to the lack of any forward communications on GT 6.

And I might ask for examples to forward to my marketing and PR folks. Each of these simple statements are massively telling beyond the words.

But why don't I have time to spend on forums? Because I'm on other forums about what ever it is I'm currently playing... After all, we developers are all gamers too... Actually that's not true anymore... There are so many in our industry that actually aren't anymore... Its sad really.

Do you guys like The Last of us? It bored the hell out of me... I've played that game at least 4 times before, many years ago... Its sad how few real game vets are not making games anymore, but I digress.

Even the guys here who freely admit they never bought GT 6 are still here... And they are the real model of patience... And as such I respect what they have to say (even if it lacks context) as they will be the next to buy GT 6 when pd make good on their promises... Whose the smarter here, us who bought GT 6, or those that are waiting for key expectations to be filled before buying it? Even I'm wearing pie on my face...

It's never good when someone can sum up your game in a few bullet points, sadder when none of those points expand on features from the previous iteration...

I am young, 19, but I worked in a development studio from May 2013 until January 2014, and whenever work would end, everyone in the room would log into our private minecraft server or log into Left for Dead 2 or some Kerbal Space Program... there was one week where the seniors got addicted to worms... it was absolutely hilarious. I have them as friends on steam, and last night they logged into Team Fortress 2 and Kerbal Space program. There is still hope! ...They currently have a product that is 13 days past its announced release date, yet still uncompleted. PD aren't the only ones that sometimes run into unexpected issues.

 

[Lawndart]

I am young, 19, but I worked in a development studio from May 2013 until January 2014, and whenever work would end, everyone in the room would log into our private minecraft server or log into Left for Dead 2 or some Kerbal Space Program... there was one week where the seniors got addicted to worms... it was absolutely hilarious. I have them as friends on steam, and last night they logged into Team Fortress 2 and Kerbal Space program. There is still hope! ...They currently have a product that is 13 days past its announced release date, yet still uncompleted. PD aren't the only ones that sometimes run into unexpected issues.

Welcome to the industry I'm sure pr and marketing are preparing some communication... The reality that retailers cut their orders if we miss dates, and the shear lose on tv advertising, that is a leading reason for not being late... Or forcing a slightly buggy product out.

I notice how you said 13 days, not 11 or 12... Every day counts past a deadline

I was 19 when I worked on my first game

 

[Devil240Z]

So is this just the secret new update anticipation thread?

 

[sk8er913]

Welcome to the industry I'm sure pr and marketing are preparing some communication... The reality that retailers cut their orders if we miss dates, and the shear lose on tv advertising, that is a leading reason for not being late... Or forcing a slightly buggy product out.

I notice how you said 13 days, not 11 or 12... Every day counts past a deadline

I was 19 when I worked on my first game

Yeah the fans have their torches and pitchforks out, hopefully they'll let me come in this week or next week... But yeah the modelling department this late in the film doesn't help much, hopefully they could use another video editor... We make mainly Android apps, commercials, and a somewhat popular webseries. I even got to try on a prototype Google Glass way back in June, because we were making an app for it. I thought that was pretty awesome to be able to try something that wasn't officially released yet.



This is what happens when someone misses their release dates, I'm sure you've experienced it.

So is this just the secret new update anticipation thread?

Exactly.

 

[Vagabond]

So is this just the secret new update anticipation thread?

So it seems... its not going too badly so far.

 

[VenomDan]

So it seems... its not going too badly so far.

One can only hope my friend.

 

[Bobert power]

Whenever this update is released, I hope we get the course maker. I'm really curious at what possibilities there are for it. If community gets added (I doubt it), that would be nice to see too.

 

[Griffith500]

I'm aware that GT games sell well over long periods but I also know that they have huge sales numbers very early in their life.
Actually, if you looked at AC sales and compare them to GT sales, the trends are pretty much the same. The overall totals are just different. Both games sell about half their overall totals in the first 4-5 weeks with the other 50% spread out over extended periods. GT5 sold 5m within the 1st month, and another 5m or so til today. AC3 sold ~2.7m over the first month and another 2.7m til today.
If I haven't mentioned the 5.5m vs 9m+ in my post, which I shouldn't have, we wouldn't be having this chat.

Assassin's Creed 3 was released two years after GT5, and AC4 a month before GT6. The data are rarely available to correct that kind of disparity, especially if the 99% point (or some other signifier of totality of sales; the "time constant", if you will) of the tail's duration is unknown.

Obviously, after enough time, "total" sales are pretty much total sales. But forecasting total sales (after some unspecified length of time) based on sales a month in might not always work out.

A nice point of comparison might be GT2 and GT3. GT2 was released right before the PS2 was released; GT3 followed about a year or so after. They worked on both simultaneously, but GT3 was lacking in several key areas over GT2. Despite that, it sold brilliantly because it somehow captured the US / NA market (and / or the PS2 did). If Sony are pushing for a repeat with the PS4 / GT7, a lot of things PD / Sony / their markets are doing now might make more sense...


But I respect why you originally brought the figures up. 👍

 

[VBR]

Lets just pretend there was an update, don't spoil this moment for me

OK, let's pretend!

PD said in the update; "Here's update 1.05, the main changes are as follows; we have fixed all the bugs & implemented all the changes requested by the GT community as posted in FRoSTeD's thread on GT Planet. We're very sorry for ignoring our fans all these years & perusing our own narrow minded agenda at the expense of common sense, we beg you to please forgive us. We've come to our senses after being awestruck at the ingenious humility of Slghtly Mad Studios regarding how they are creating a simulator based on community feedback. From now on we'll be doing the same & welcome all your input via GT Planet. PD staff members have signed up over at GT Planet & will be working with Jordan to improve the GT series from now on."

I wish!

 

[Griffith500]

Sorry, but it's so important to have both "singular" games as well as "committee designed" ones; think about a figurative "gene pool".

Be grateful you get the choice, and make sure you celebrate that choice, because then there'll be more of it in future.

 

[Kurei]

In no way am I defending the "arguing 10 year olds" or trolls (whatever the internet calls them), but deep down, and I can only say for how it is in America but it's not sunshine and bunnies these days (except for the rich). Gran Turismo 6 (and other games) is suppose to be a way to relax and enjoy in your private time alone or with family and friends. Some people have to pinch pennies to buy these items and don't want to be told "oops"(see the Red Bull X challenge/January date fallout) by said rich people swimming in your money like Scrooge McDuck.

I feel a lot of the anger here has to do with "I'm/we are getting shafted again, I'm already getting that at work or life in general." It's seems when PD is quiet (No news) all is pretty well here but when they make a "promise" (again Red Bull) all the troublemakers come out and some of the decent reasonable posters fall victim. Am I happy with how things are in the GT6 world, not really. Am I going to cry and whine, no. That's get us no where but angry and banned. I do hope things improve, but PD is no different than any other company and I do hope they get their act together and things get better. For me a start would be some communication from someone with knowledge. Even Kaz's translator would be great, someone, anyone. The language barrier is not an excuse for me. That way we can have a discussion on facts and not arguments on speculation.

Yeah, I get that. I was just pointing out how it's quickly become a regular occurrence with GTP & GT as a whole.

PD really needs to just 'open up' on the subject. The less answers we have, the more fuel for the fire there is.

Edit* I just realized, this thread hasn't been locked yet afterall

 

[eSZee]

Edit* I just realized, this thread hasn't been locked yet afterall

People are behaving.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

My personal thought for the update that (should) be coming before the end of the month is that they are having a hard time getting it to work right.

That said, they did say "monthly updates".....

They have 8 days...

Man, I wish there was a PR department for PD!!!!

 

[bman1984]

Yeah, I get that. I was just pointing out how it's quickly become a regular occurrence with GTP & GT as a whole.

PD really needs to just 'open up' on the subject. The less answers we have, the more fuel for the fire there is.

Edit* I just realized, this thread hasn't been locked yet afterall

I agree that it is a turn off to log on and see the some of the community up in arms over let's face it a video game, that then affects the other posters and how they act. I want the very best PD can offer as much as the next guy/gal, but acting in a demeaning way won't go very far. If the complainers would put all (or most) of their energy into real life as they did here maybe we'd live in a better place. But thanks to the internet, people get to hide behind a computer screen. We live in an "I'm owed" world and it shows at times. As I've said before Gran Turismo is something to enjoy. It's clear that is a task at times and not something you'd expect in you ENTERTAINMENT.

I also agree with you in that someone has to start talking. No, not about their dinner or a play by play, hour by hour update, but something like when it comes to the Camber debate or Tire wear in the S-Class Challenges. Something on social media or even here (like an information account/thread only) that can say "we hear you, we're looking into it" or "we're working on it, in the mean time here's a teaser picture/video." or "Good morning/afternoon SURPRISE" with something attached showing their progress. Boom, acknowledgement AND something to discuss as suggested before. I know GTPlanet is not an official Sony site, but considering Jordan get's invited to most if not all their special events and even conduct interviews with their people, they must respect and trust him. I'm sure not just anyone gets that kind of access.

Off Topic: It's neat how on this site that "Turismo" gets the red misspelled underline.

 

[jimipitbull]

Off Topic: It's neat how on this site that "Turismo" gets the red misspelled underline.

I believe that would be from your browser, not this site

 

[bman1984]

I believe that would be from your browser, not this site

Ah... well if that's the case my mistake. 💡 I figured it was a built-in spell checker in the reply window through GTPlanet. Thanks.👍

 

[civicgsir]

I am by no means giving PD a pass, but things ain't going that great for Sony, or Japan for that matter.


http://news.yahoo.com/sony-reverses-annual-profit-forecast-1-08-bln-062044731.html

Sony cuts 5,000 jobs, exits PC business and books $1 bn loss
By Peter Brieger February 6, 2014 5:26 AM

Tokyo (AFP) - Sony warned Thursday it would book a $1.08 billion annual loss as it cuts 5,000 jobs and exits the stagnant PC market this year, as the once-mighty electronics giant struggles to reinvent itself in the digital age.

The shock news comes a week after Moody's downgraded its credit rating on Sony to junk, saying the maker of Bravia televisions and PlayStation game consoles had more work to do in repairing its battered balance sheet.

Japan's embattled electronics sector, including Sharp and Panasonic, has faced serious challenges from foreign rivals such as US giant Apple and South Korea's Samsung as they were outplayed in the smartphone and low-margin television business.

Sony said Thursday the job cuts would save about $1.0 billion a year starting from early 2015, and announced the sale of its Vaio-brand PC division to a Japanese investment fund.

 

[Lawndart]

I am by no means giving PD a pass, but things ain't going that great for Sony, or Japan for that matter.


http://news.yahoo.com/sony-reverses-annual-profit-forecast-1-08-bln-062044731.html

Sony cuts 5,000 jobs, exits PC business and books $1 bn loss
By Peter Brieger February 6, 2014 5:26 AM

Tokyo (AFP) - Sony warned Thursday it would book a $1.08 billion annual loss as it cuts 5,000 jobs and exits the stagnant PC market this year, as the once-mighty electronics giant struggles to reinvent itself in the digital age.

The shock news comes a week after Moody's downgraded its credit rating on Sony to junk, saying the maker of Bravia televisions and PlayStation game consoles had more work to do in repairing its battered balance sheet.

Japan's embattled electronics sector, including Sharp and Panasonic, has faced serious challenges from foreign rivals such as US giant Apple and South Korea's Samsung as they were outplayed in the smartphone and low-margin television business.

Sony said Thursday the job cuts would save about $1.0 billion a year starting from early 2015, and announced the sale of its Vaio-brand PC division to a Japanese investment fund.

This has no impact on the entertainment division. It's actually doing really well.

This is just the PC hardware vertical. Other areas of Sony are also in taters.