Jagged / motion blur with new LED HDTV (Finally over)

[bevo]

Why don't you just bring your ps3 or xbox with you to tryout the tv in store for motion blur? You could find the one you want right then, instead of having to keep returning tvs. If they want to sell you a tv I'm sure it won't be a problem. I've done this before but never at best buy. I try to avoid them at all costs for tv purchases. I have never had anything but trouble with them when something goes wrong.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

That was my plan originally but they usually dont have the tv in stock that I want. Like the Samsungs, both I was interrested in, they dont have in stock.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Now I am getting somewhere. Dealing with price matching, I was able to get a better deal at ABC Warehouse. BB wont even price match because they TV is not in stock so it looks like ABC gets my business with this tv. And they have a display model in stock that I can actually look at before the purchase. He said he would sell me the display model for $750.00 but I said no thanks.

Samsung UN32d6000S LED 1080P 120hz
$779.00 ABC Warehouse
$809.00 Best Buy

 

[eSZee]

Good news. Hope it works for you.
What's the difference between the UN32d6000S and UN32d6000? Does the S at the end simply stand for SILVER, as in silver exterior?

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Good question. I am not sure. Silver exterior would actually match my surround sound components. Black matches the PS3 but the black seems to be a magnet to dust. I will be happy either way.

 

[Submerged]

Plasma does seem like its the best but everywhere I go, everyone I talk to says stay away from plasma.

Sometimes, the majority is blinded by the shiny shiny. Plasmas is better for colour reproduction and closest to a CRT levels of colours. Often, in my experience, LCD tend to be too harsh and blue with their colours and also does not display realistic colours very well in comparison to a well tuned Plasma.

For games, you do not have so much of an issue with burn-in fears anymore. They're pretty much non-existent.

I need a 32" so Plasma is pretty much out out of the equasion anyway. So its between LCD and LED.

What makes the size of 32 inch a no go for plasma? Is it because all the television shops only stock LED or LCD televisions now, at that size?

 

[eSZee]

Good question. I am not sure. Silver exterior would actually match my surround sound components. Black matches the PS3 but the black seems to be a magnet to dust. I will be happy either way.

I was gonna mention the TV is $700 shipped from amazon but wasn't sure if the S and non-S were the same panel or not.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Sometimes, the majority is blinded by the shiny shiny. Plasmas is better for colour reproduction and closest to a CRT levels of colours. Often, in my experience, LCD tend to be too harsh and blue with their colours and also does not display realistic colours very well in comparison to a well tuned Plasma.

For games, you do not have so much of an issue with burn-in fears anymore. They're pretty much non-existent.




What makes the size of 32 inch a no go for plasma? Is it because all the television shops only stock LED or LCD televisions now, at that size?

Checked Best Buy, ABC Warehouse, Amazon, New Egg and its next to impossible to find a 32" Plasma. So Plasma is out of the question. At this point its up to LED. And I will be leaving work in a few minutes to check out the Samsung LED that I listed a couple posts back for $779.00. They have a display model I can mess with and if I like it they can order the tv for me.

 

[Endless-Wilso]

As far as i know its industry standard for plasmas to be 42" and up now somthing becauce of the pixels that makes it hard to make .

 

[wfooshee]

Smaller ones generally tend to be limited to 720 as well, something he already went through.

But I repeat my statement that LED vs LCD will do NOTHING for your jaggies issue, or for your motion blur issue. LED set are LCD sets, just with a different light source.

 

[G.T]

Smaller ones generally tend to be limited to 720 as well, something he already went through.

But I repeat my statement that LED vs LCD will do NOTHING for your jaggies issue, or for your motion blur issue. LED set are LCD sets, just with a different light source.

Also quoted for truth. Although I am presuming because LED is now/almost the new standard a little more development time is being put into them, but there will be no or very little difference for fixing your jaggy or blur issue as it is basically still the same display technology just with a different energy-saving backlight.

 

[bevo]

Now I am getting somewhere. Dealing with price matching, I was able to get a better deal at ABC Warehouse. BB wont even price match because they TV is not in stock so it looks like ABC gets my business with this tv. And they have a display model in stock that I can actually look at before the purchase. He said he would sell me the display model for $750.00 but I said no thanks.

Samsung UN32d6000S LED 1080P 120hz
$779.00 ABC Warehouse
$809.00 Best Buy

I don't know if there are HH greg stores near you, but those are the best places to buy TVs. I bought 2 50 inch panasonic plasmas about 3-4 uears ago from them. I talked them down to over 500 under what best buy was selling them for on both sets, and they threw in a 250$ stand for one, and only charged me 50$ for the 3 year extended warrenty. Best buy told me they're prices are so low they can't barter on them. HH greg beat them by 600$ a TV.

In all honesty though it sounds like your chasing the dragon on these TV sets. Like I have told you before, the 3 best brands will all be great TVs, and unless you go OLED the tech doesn't matter much, you are not going to see a difference between LCD and LED. You have made it clear you have no intention of getting the TV calibrated, and have said you might buy a calibration disk and if it doesn't work return it, so you obviously don't seem like you wish to get the most out of your TV. You can't get a true opinion of a TV in the home without calibrating it. Hopefully your happy with the samsung your getting because if your not, then your screwed. You'll never find a tv you like. They all look bad out of the box, without at least a decent DVD calibration.

From the sounds of what your wanting from a TV, I would say your best bet would be a rear projection DLP, or a DLP projector. They look super smooth and handle fast scenes the best, But neither of those are going to happen with a 32 inch limit. To me it sounds like your eyes just don't like HD. It shows to many flaws with the source material for you, and the problems you list are things that are wrong with the source material and not the TV itself. I'm not telling you this to be mean, or ruin your experience. I've been down the same road your going down about 7 years ago, and have researched TVs to this day, and have owned at least 10 different brands of HDTVs since then. To me my last panasonic I bought is by far the best TV I have owned or viewed in someone's home. Again though I bet I am the only one of the people I know who set down with at least a DVD to calibrate my TV. I have even went to peoples homes and tried to get them to let me do it for them, and they said their TV looks fine. I would be damned if I payed more then a couple hundred bucks for a TV and didn't try and get it to look as good as it could. You could make a 250$ 32 inch tv look better then a 600$ one by calibrating it against the 600$ one. Try not to jump to a conclusion on your new set until you have used Avia to calibrate it. Hope I have helped some. With the different types of tech and things salesman tell you TVs can be alot harder to pick then they need to be.

 

[Ibonibo]

Be aware that the TV in shops are calibrated like a duck!
Often pushed the vibrance to the extreme.

As you look for a crt replacement you will need to take into account that todays technology is still lacking behind.
Plasma or a good LCD with full panel backlight LED are your only choice for the moment. But none will equal an CRT
Don't take an edge LED, they will have also some cloudiness.

I suppose you don't want to wait a year and pay a boatload of money, otherwise look at CES.
Sony's full LED or Samsung/LG's OLED screens will finally (hopefully) close the gap of CRT/Flatpanel


EDIT: Rad about calibrating:
First you can calibrate your Tv with very simple methods.
Somewhere here is a thread where I posted 2 images on that serve to calibrate TV's.
Not a lot of work and the difference is stunning.
Secondly, tearing and juddering can also come from processing the TV does.
I have a bravia z4500. Calibrated with the 2 images, turned down all helps, or toned them down to the lowest setting and put the TV on gaming mode so to have the smallest latency.

If you go by the picture that is shown to you in shops, you will never be happy as the setting the shops use is a hidden feature (showroom) and disabled for customers as it drasticlly reduces the tv lifetime. You need to calibrate the TV because the stock settings aare never to the fullest of what the panel can do.
Often the factory settings are way too high.

If you don't want to calibrate you surly have a friend who can do it. Only requirement is a good eye.

But in your case with the image faults (jaggyness,...) it is probably the processor messing up things.

faults like that rarely comes from source material or the panel but the processing the Tv does

 

[Submerged]

But in your case with the image faults (jaggyness,...) it is probably the processor messing up things.

faults like that rarely comes from source material or the panel but the processing the Tv does

.... Well, it is well known that Xbox 360's and PS3 doesn't really employ AA in their games, hence why there are jaggies being apparent using HD television screens.

Yes, some televisions do use their own versions of post-processing, which you can turn off in "game" mode (supposely). However it will still display the jaggies anyway, because of the fact that the console doesn't at all do anything to minimise the creation of the jaggies in the first place.

No amount of post-processing is going to solve this problem at all, apart from making it all a blurry, horribly coloured mess.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

UPDATE: Currently using. SONY BRAVIA KDL-32EX523 1080p 60hz $669.00

LED does indeed look a LOT better than LCD.

I went to the store 99% positive I was going to buy the Samsung. BUT it was setting right next to the Sony. The Sony had instant better blacks and colors default but the Samsung handled the jaggies and motion blur much better. We tried for an hour and a half and could not get the color or the blacks on the Samsung to look as good as the color or blacks of the Sony. Found out the Samsung doesnt allow PIP for ever imput, only for cable. The Sony allowed PIP with ANY imput which was another instant selling point for me since I always like to play GT5 B-Spec at the same time as playing the 360. And if I wanted I could watch a blu-ray movie at the same time while I am playing the 360. The pip also had a ton of options and adjustments as you can see in the pics I posted. Plus not being able to dial in the color or blacks to match the Sony also drove me nuts. So I went with the Sony even though it was only 60 hz which is probably why it was $100.00 cheaper than the Samsung. I was also impressed that the sales rep actually sat patiently with me for over an hour and a half while we messed with both tvs. Great guy for sure. Since they didnt have the Samsung in stock, I bought the Sony to compare LED to LCD. I had the sales rep order me the 120hz Samsung so I could try it out as the 4th and last tv on my list. It should arrive Tuesday or Wednesday. If the Samsung doesnt beat this Sony then I will be keeping the Sony. One thing is for sure, LED tvs look a LOT better than LCD tvs.

Once I got the Sony home it took over 30 minutes to find the cable channels which was the longest of all 3 tvs. A bit strange since we only have a few cable channels. The Sony was very dark with the factory settings so I had to turn up the brightness and the backlighting and adjusted the color just a little. Found out it is dark from the factory for the energy saving. I used the Sony over the entire weekend and the Jaggies are a little less visible compared to the LCD tvs. I LOVE the colors with this LED. LOVE them!! This tv is the closest tv in terms of color and clearity to my Sony Trinitron Wega. The most strange part about this tv is that it sets Gran Turismo 5 to 1080i instead of 1080p. However it sets Blu-Ray movies to 1080p and 360 to 1080p. One thing is for sure. The PIP or P&P is just awesome. I really love having that feature. I didnt show in the pics but the P&P lets you change each screen any size you want. You can even go 50/50 with the P&P. Now that I have this new HDTV that has P&P and PIP I ran a LOT of b-spec this weekend. My driver went from level 20 to level 38 over the weekend. Ran him for 9hours straight on Friday then 12 hours straight on Saturday while I played the 360. Then about another 9 hours on Sunday.

I also ran a test using the component cables from my 360 and used the HDMI from Heathers 360. Had them side by side using the 50/50 pip and they looked identical. So the people that seem to preach and claim HDMI is a "lot" better than component are not correct. They look dang near identical.

Component vs HDMI (Identical)

LED

LCD

 

[Moglet]

Funnily enough on this topic I noticed the edge lighting on my TV for the first time over the weekend. It's barely visible but it's definitely there on the grey scenes. Luckily in dark scenes it's not at all visible. I'm still impressed with the black levels in a dark room. 👍

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Its going to be interresting to see the battle between the Samsung 120hz and this Sony 60hz. So far I am really loving this Sony Bravia. Especially the colors. Just incredible. I am so glad I switched to LED instead of LCD. Huge difference and huge improvement. Whites could be a little brighter with this Sony. Turning up the brightness made some of the blacks a little lighter than I want. But overall I really love this Sony Bravia. The Samsung will have to be really impressive to beat this Sony.

 

[wfooshee]

Turning up the brightness made some of the blacks a little lighter than I want.

That's because brightness controls black level. Everything else gets brighter accordingly, but the brightness adjustment is intended to set the floor black level.

Contrast controls white level. once the black level is set. Then there's usually some give-and-take, working both adjustments back and forth, since they affect each other.

 

[bevo]

UPDATE: Currently using. SONY BRAVIA KDL-32EX523 1080p 60hz $669.00


I also ran a test using the component cables from my 360 and used the HDMI from Heathers 360. Had them side by side using the 50/50 pip and they looked identical. So the people that seem to preach and claim HDMI is a "lot" better than component are not correct. They look dang near identical.

You won't be able to tell a difference on that size of a TV. Even between 720p and 1080p on a 32 inch TV you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. At 32 inches 720p is plenty good enough unless you have it mounted on a racing setup right in front of your face. 1080p is really for larger TVs. I can't tell the difference between my 50 inch which is 1080p and my sisters 50 inch which is 720p. I bought both TVs the same day. The only difference in them is that one was 720 and the other 1080p. Plus when using a 360 to test, it isn't going to tell much anyway. I don't think any 360 games are actually in 1080p. Their upscaled to 1080p which doesn't look near as good as real 1080p. You would need to use blue rays, or some pc games to see the difference in component and HDMI. To me the real advantage of HDMI is Dolby true HD, and DTS master audio.

HDMI is alot better though. You can't get any digital audio through component cables, and if you were using a large screen or projector it would be noticeable. On smaller TVs though not so much.

 

[Moglet]

Watching Blu Rays is the best way to see the difference between 720p and 1080p. The Dark Knight looks like you can reach in and touch the surfaces in 1080p!

 

[Ibonibo]

1080p is really for larger TVs

Why?
You can't have enough resolution. (especially for games)
A long time along in the CRT age, we already had higher resolution on much smaller screens. (1600*1200px on 19")
1080p is standard now.
Long live 4K.
But that is just because I am a graphic whore

Camaro:
Luckly, I found the pics again:



The grid one is to look if your panel is set to 1:1 pixel resolution and get the right picture (wide , 16:9,...)

On this pic, play with the contrast, sharpness settings to get the line as clear as possible.

On the faces you need to get the right temperature (warm,cold, standard), colour,

Here you nee to see all the differents hues as patterns.

Here too, try to get as many patterns out as possible, if not correct calibrated the greys will melt together

Here you need to see the colours in the right and left, if left is white ot right is black, your contrast, brightness is off, you need to see colours not black or white. More colours you see the better.

Hope that helped a fair bit.


On the tv. Bravias are marvellous little pieces and you will see why they cost a tad more than samsung or Lg.
The 10/12-bit panels have high fidelities for TV's.
Your shot of LCD vs LED is quite astonnishing!

On the jagginess, I miswrote last post: if the source material has jaggies, no worry, there not much you can do about it. TV processors can calculate it out, but it will eat detail for doing that, and other faults.
Try turning down the Bravia's little helpers (mpeg, smoothness,....)

What you can also do if the calibrating yourself is too nerfwrecking or want a second source, google your Tv model with settings, you will find forum threads with settings from other users.
Though that can be misleading as some people prefer wierd calibrated TV's.

If you have a question for the images above, just ask

 

[bevo]

Why?
You can't have enough resolution. (especially for games)
A long time along in the CRT age, we already had higher resolution on much smaller screens. (1600*1200px on 19")
1080p is standard now.
Long live 4K.
But that is just because I am a graphic whore

I love the higher resolutions, but like I said before, when your sitting 4 or 5 feet away from a small screen the difference between 720p and 1080p is not noticeable. 2 feet away from a monitor is a different story, or going way up from say 720p to a higher res PC monitor would also be noticable because you are so close. Plus for console gaming the games are not even in natuve 1080p so why worry about getting a 1080p TV.

Why spend several more hundred dollars on a small TV to get 1080p when the games you are playing are not in 1080p or you are far enough away not to be able to tell the difference? I've compared 50 inch panasonic plasmas at 1080p and 720p, both with the same blue ray, and video settings sitting side by side. Unless you get really, really close, no one could tell me which was which for sure. And I was the only one who could say they could ever tell a difference but I knew which they were, so it might have been in my head. The only time I thought I could tell was when I was right up on top of it. People are way to caught up in the 1080p thing, when very few console games are even in 1080p.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Camaro:
Luckly, I found the pics again:

Ahhh thank you for those pics! I am guessing the best thing for me to do would be to put those pics on a flash then just stick them into the USB port of the tv or even the usb port on the 360 or PS3? I am guessing those are similar images that would be on a calibration disk.

Also does anyone know why this Sony sets GT5 to 1080i? It sets everything else including blu-ray movies to 1080p. Not sure why GT5 defaults to 1080i.

Oh and for the price, this Sony Bravia was actually about $100 cheaper. But I think thats because it is 60hz compared to the Samsung which is 120hz.

That's because brightness controls black level. Everything else gets brighter accordingly, but the brightness adjustment is intended to set the floor black level.

Contrast controls white level. once the black level is set. Then there's usually some give-and-take, working both adjustments back and forth, since they affect each other.

This Sony Bravia does not have a "contrast" setting which seems a bit strange.

 

[bevo]

This Sony Bravia does not have a "contrast" setting which seems a bit strange.

Contrast just sets your white levels so it goes by different names. Anything that looks like it is raising or lowering your whites will be your contrast. Just like brightness sets the black levels, contrast sets the whites. Order one of the Avia calibration dvds and it will explain alot of stuff to you, and help you get your TV looking alot closer to being calibrated. Amazon has it sometimes for around 20 bucks used.

To get those pictures on your TV you could just use your PS3 to get on GTP and look at them.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I always forget that the PS3 has internet access. I tried it once when the PS3 first came out and it seemed so clunky and the lettering was tiny. Maybe a lot of that has been cleaned up with patches. But thats still a good idea. 👍
The nice thing about having the pics on a flash drive is that they would be in full size instead of clicking through the image shack images to get the full image. So I might still put them on a flash drive.

 

[Ibonibo]

bevo: I was just pushing you with the res. If it's not for PC use, you don't need higher res. than 1080p (and even than 1080p is good enough for the normal consumer)
And 4k is good for TV sets above 60".

Camaro:
Burosch has a calibration disk (video) with those images and a few more (which is their business), but those two are enough to get a good calibration even for firsttimers, and are free which is always a plus. So yes, you will find the same or similar images on calibration disks.
I recommand using a stick and putting it directly on the TV. The less sources it goes through the better.
And as you said, no clicking through webpages and adjusting so the image is centered.


For Gt being in 1080i instead of 1080p, I think it is either in the PS3 settings or in the GT menu, I guess it's in GT that you need to change the resolution.

For the Hz, both TV have 60hz input, the rest is the processor who fills it with refreshed images.
Look on your Bravia if you have a gaming mode?
If yes, put it on, it drasticly reduces input lag (something from 10-15ms to 5-2ms)

My bravia has 200hz (240hz in the US) and it can create faults in the image because it messes up.
Don't get me wrong, more hz can be a good thing as it can render fast images more fluid in theory, but more than 200 (240) hz is useless. Lg had one with 600hz, which was solely marketing. Above 100 (120) hz, the improvements are barely visible, if at all, or mesurable in image quality.
If you don't see problems in fast scenes (where the whole image changes, not racing in a straight line) then 60hz can be enough.
Also the above about Hz, is my knowledge when I bought my TV which dates back a little, so I guess 60hz Tv todays are far better than 2-3 years ago.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

1/19/12 Samsung follow up. The Samsung said something on the box about 240 refresh rate but everything I looked up said it is 120hz so not sure about that.

I picked up the Samsung last night and set it side by side next to the Sony Bravia. I had my 360 on the Sony and Heathers 360 hooked to the Samsung. I put TDU2 into both games side by side same and went to the same locations in the game. First went to the casino then hit the start button to check the colors. After that went to the map layout to see the overall view of the city on both screens. In terms of screen tearing, blurring, and Anti Aliassing the Samsung dominated in this category. It was mind blowing the difference. Just simply rotating left and right I could see the difference instantly and even more on the overlooking birds eye map of the city. The Sony was VERY blurry and jagged with movement. The Samsung was very fluid in motion. Very very impressive.

So below I will list the pros and cons of each tv.

SONY BRAVIA KDL-32EX523 1080p 60hz
Pros
-Color is incredible
-P&P with a lot of options. I love P&P. It also has PIP but I dont care for PIP
-Anti glare front screen
-Remote and menus are very easy to navigate
-Blu-Ray Movies look amazing
-Overall I really love this TV

Cons
-Motion blur is terrible, VERY jagged. Very poor refresh rate probably because of 60hz. This is very bad because I want this TV for games and movies

Samsung UN32d6000SF LED 1080P 240hz/120hz
Pros
-The motion blur with movement is incredible. Very smooth. Probably because of 240/120hz. This is really all this tv has going for it.

Cons
-Color just doesnt even come close to the Sony
-No P&P. Only PIP and that only can be used with tv channels. Worthless to me.
-Very shiny front screen
-Remote and menus are clunky to navigate.
-Blu-Ray Movies seemed to have jitters, hesitation in some action scenes. Very strange looking.

So the conclusion between these 2 is that even though the Samsung dominates in refresh rate and the motion blur is very smooth, I prefer EVERYTHING else about the Sony. So I need a Sony with the refresh rate of the Samsung and then I will finally be happy. Bad news, they dont have any Sony in 32" with 120hz. The good news, kinda, is that they have a Sony 1080p 240hz 3D HDTV but it is a 40" for $1,000. The max distance I sit from the TV is about 7' unless I wall mount it then I might get 8' max. That distance might be ok for 40". So Friday I am going to ABC Warehouse with my 360 and I plan to test this TV in person. I dont care about the 3D, I just want a Sony with 120hz or 240hz. So if I am pleased with the results of the 360 hooked to the 40 Sony then that will offically be my new tv.

 

[Ibonibo]

Blu-Ray Movies seemed to have jitters, hesitation in some action scenes. Very strange looking.

This also can happen with Sony.
There is an option for the video output : Video1, Video 2, Text,... ( I have 3 option but don´t remind the names now).
There is a huge difference, I would need to take again a look to explain it, but has to do with the Hz and frames/sec conversion.
i had jitters on Blurays because I had the wrong option enabled.
Just saying.

Your new choice seems good. You will have a good TV. Higher refresh rates are important for gaming.
I play a 1-2 meters away from my 40". It´s no problem at all

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

At least I am getting closer and closer. It was the 4th tv I tested and each one has something better. The Sony truly has everything I want. Now if I can just get that same refresh rate and lack of jagginess on the 40" Sony then I will be very satisfied. Just a little nervous going to 40" especially since it has 3D. But as I said above, I could always wall mount it if it seems to close. But if I go that route, it means re-doing my entire entertainment center. Which would be a pain but if thats what I have to do then thats what I have to do. I will know more after tomorrow once I bring my 360 there.

I cant belive how patient this sales rep has been at ABC Warehouse. Very nice guy and has busted his butt to make sure I get a tv I am happy with. He is just awesome! I am sure the commission going from a $669 tv to a $1000 tv is motivating for him too. At this point I dont care, I will spend anything to get the TV I am happy with.

 

[Ibonibo]

Yeah better pay a bit more and be happy than pay budget and be unhappy in a few months and having regrets.
There is a saying : Buy cheap, pay twice

Tell us how it went