JSTC GT400 (GT300) Season 2 - Winter Test Session 2/9/13 4pm Pst

[Wardez]

I beg to differ. I've ran these cars in a couple of different series' before. Through a race the higher weight gives more tire wear. These cars make up for it with more power. Just like IRL. They balanced the JAF GT300s with the GT3 cars by giving the GT300s a little more power and keeping the GT3s at FIA spec.

What they ran was a whole different concept than what this series is. Not to crack on PURE, but this isn't their series. Not everyone has to follow their concept. There are numerous other series out there with nothing but JAF GT300 cars. I think adding 2 or 3 cars that are close to what the GT3's are IRL would add to the realism. The Vette can't corner as good as the Celica or Garaiya. Its also not hard to limit it's power to 400hp and exclude any upgrades like I said. The GTR TC is 4wd, but then so is the premium Subaru. The main difference is the power and the weight. You could do what I said and bump the weight of the GTR TC up to 1300kg and give it 384hp. It's slow in a straight line but really good around turns. But again, the weight will keep it in check, and especially since were making the race distances longer this season, tire wear will play a part! I have a room up now testing for this weekend's race, and testing the proposed new cars against the current ones. They're all very close, and after 10 laps the tire wear is nearly the same on mediums, but the R8 gets tricky to drive on low tires.

Show me numbers, that's all I want to see, not theory.

And again with the "IRL" thing, this is GT5!

Also, not telling you to run anything like a Pure series. Simply saying the cars won't work.

 

[joetruckv8]

Seth I get your theory, but we just want to keep it simple for now. I'm sure they could be reg'ed but the drivers just don't want them on the grid. And for whatever reason I agree. Sorry man!

 

[freshseth83]

You took your vote on it, that's not everyone 👎. I've been testing them for a long time now. I'm in my room and the Vette @400hp 1250kg is doing 1:51.8's at GVS. The Audi is faster but doing 1:51.0's. That's with the current GT300 cars at the same spec, and I'm doing 1:51.6's with the Garaiya. 1:52.0 with the Celica.

How is that not simple? The current cars are just as fast and even faster.

 

[freshseth83]

Show me numbers, that's all I want to see, not theory.

And again with the "IRL" thing, this is GT5!

Also, not telling you to run anything like a Pure series. Simply saying the cars won't work.

You do your own testing, I already gave the numbers. You don't even partake in this series, but come in here talking about what pure does. Sorry I don't think trying to be realistic on GT5 is a bad thing. If you have something to contribute besides talking about some other series that's great, but this isn't that series, just because it didn't work there doesn't mean it can't work here.

 

[TylerJDallas]

New Chassis: 👎

 

[Wardez]

You do your own testing, I already gave the numbers. You don't even partake in this series, but come in here talking about what pure does. Sorry I don't think trying to be realistic on GT5 is a bad thing. If you have something to contribute besides talking about some other series that's great, but this isn't that series, just because it didn't work there doesn't mean it can't work here.

This is an open forum, and this thread's in the interest check section, free game for feedback. If the leaders of JSTC didn't want feedback then they would've had this all in a social group.

So you can drop the whole " you don't have as much say since you're not in the series." (paraphrase) thing.

Now that that's out of the way. And you're right, all I wanted to contribute was our experience. It's useful to give our experience so I will give it, in good conscience, because I want to contribute whatever I have in order to help this series succeed.

You're wasting time trying to include the cars. Leaving it at that.
And trust me, I wanted to include the cars more than anyone. I didn't let go of them easily at all.

 

[freshseth83]

This is an open forum, and this thread's in the interest check section, free game for feedback. If the leaders of JSTC didn't want feedback then they would've had this all in a social group.

So you can drop the whole " you don't have as much say since you're not in the series." (paraphrase) thing.

Now that that's out of the way. And you're right, all I wanted to contribute was our experience. It's useful to give our experience so I will give it, in good conscience, because I want to contribute whatever I have in order to help this series succeed.

You're wasting time trying to include the cars. Leaving it at that.
And trust me, I wanted to include the cars more than anyone. I didn't let go of them easily at all.

Bolded part, never said that. I said your series, or pure or whatever it's called. This isn't your series. Did you not see when I said "If you have something to contribute besides talking about some other series that's great... just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it can't work here"? You ran cars with ~330hp. These cars have upwards of 380hp. 👍 Just like in real life GT300, they gave a power boost to the JAF GT300 machines to compete in a straight line with the GT3's. I really don't care if people don't like it, or if they feel it's a bad idea. I'm saying I like it, I think it's a good idea. Oh, and the cars are even because I've ran them before (had this idea about 8 months ago when GT3's were starting to show their worth in SGT). When you speed up the GT300 cars and slow down the 'GT3s' they're a great match.

So my specs are

384hp 1300kg (no upgrades) Audi R8LMS
404hp 1250kg (no upgrades) Z06/ZR1 RM
384hp 1300kg (stage 3 engine) GTR R35 TC

 

[Wardez]

We had them at around 330hp, yes, but the GT3 cars are able to be limited down to less than 300hp and they still didn't work because you're flattening the power curve so much, something like 50% in our case compared to 70% in yours is hardly a difference when it comes to the way the power feeds, it's just too much too fast.

And the GT-R with its tire wear being much better, you can try and get the lap times close but there are still many other things you have to consider that break parity in a series.

I'd like to think you'd want to take my word for it, but you have no reason to right?

The bit you bolded up; you obviously say "paraphrase" in parentheses, that means: my take on what you said, not putting words in your mouth.
It was a reference to the attitude you were putting up when you said I wasn't "partaking" in the series, like that should throw out any of my opinion.

If you had taken that idea you had eight months ago and ran with it, making a successful series, things would be a lot different, so why didn't you?

 

[CSLACR]

You can spec any cars you want, the question is how evenly matched you want them.

Another thing to remember is that different people always get different results from the same thing in this game. Somebody has a good tune on one car, a bad tune on another, misses an important apex, specs get whacked.
So while these specs may seem perfect to one driver, they might not be the same way for everyone else.

It sounds like freshseth is that one driver here.

 

[freshseth83]

Wardez, I didn't say you put words in my mouth. I told you what I said. Your paraphrase was wrong because I didn't say anything like that. Take what I said as it's said bud, not what you think I meant. As far as the tire wear, the model is different now with the new update. I don't "take your word for it" because I do my own testing. I've done so for a long time now ever since the subject of a season two for this series was thought of in the first season thread. 👍 with engine stage 3 the GTR is given some top end which it lacks. But with 1300kg the weight added makes the tire wear greater. And since it's 4wd the front tires will start to wear faster than the rear, even with the new tire wear model in the latest update.

And why you worried about why I didn't "run with it"? Why? Because there was already 5 or 6 different GT300 leagues. And since I don't have some fancy title and was busy with other series I didn't go for it plus didn't think there'd be much interest. Especially seeing as how people now aren't even thinking 'GT3' type cars could be speced to meet the others.

With the series the way it is now, you already have the RX7, the Garaiya, the Lexus etc. with engine stage tuning and them being limited to about 70%-80%. So the point your making about limiting the other cars is covered there IMO. You don't even need to upgrade them. Which is what I'm proposing. The Corvette doesn't need any upgrades but racing exhaust. The R8LMS needs none. The stage 3 engine on the GTR is just to give it top speed because that's an issue with the car. Look at the POLE times from Monza this season- 1:50.5. After 3 laps (qualifying style) with the Corvette, my best (not saying that's the best possible) was 1:51.378- that would be 3rd on the grid. So the most powerful car of the new additions would still be slower than two of the GT300s. The Audi and GTR were 1:52.3xx and 1:52.0xx respectively at Monza. This is with my skill level, my desired downforce like I ran with the Garaiya this season. For reference I ran a 1:52.011 for qualifying with it. Basically at every track I've tested so far, the 3 cars I think should be added are all within .200-.500 of what I have done with the Garaiya. Like i said, do your own testing and see what conclusions you draw. The GTR might still have superior tire wear, but I can't tell. With the race distances increasing and the fuel consumption from the engine tuning, it'll need to pit just like every other car. So that's not even a worry. None of what you brought up is because I've been running the cars (again) for the past few weeks to modify them according the specs of the current cars this series is using.

 

[TylerJDallas]

Wow wall of text he11. Going to be hard to mark whatever it is we're voting on now.

 

[Wardez]

I wasn't paraphrasing your, "doesn't mean it can't work here" part, I was paraphrasing, " you're not even partaking in this series."

So you must've been looking for something in my post before you even started replying to it.

btw, if you're confident in an idea enough, forget about the trends, if it's good enough, all of the other multiple series of the same type will just fall away.

Bottom line - your theory is sound, to you, and that's great, but it's put into practice, nothing will come of it. Practice meaning: being run for a full season in a series. I would think it was awesome if you got it to work, and encourage you to try, but I just don't think it will.

I'll run the cars around at your spec and post up my times later. Who says I wouldn't want to run in season 2?

 

[freshseth83]

I wasn't paraphrasing your, "doesn't mean it can't work here" part, I was paraphrasing, " you're not even partaking in this series."

What're you talking about? Was I wrong in saying you don't partake in this series? You talked about how these cars didn't work in your experience with your other series. My point is this isn't that series. Making connections is useless as these are two different concepts. So while that's cool that your pure whatever it's called didn't work out, one experience doesn't = all.

So you must've been looking for something in my post before you even started replying to it.

Why are you still reaching?

btw, if you're confident in an idea enough, forget about the trends, if it's good enough, all of the other multiple series of the same type will just fall away.

You missed where I said I had other series I was partaking in? Didn't have time to make it.

Bottom line - your theory is sound, to you, and that's great, but it's put into practice, nothing will come of it. Practice meaning: being run for a full season in a series. I would think it was awesome if you got it to work, and encourage you to try, but I just don't think it will.

That's great! And I think it will work, especially since the cars reach the same times and have around the same tire wear rates. What's different from the Lexus being the fastest car thanks to it's HP and the Garaiya being fast around the corners and them reaching the same lap times? There is no difference except the car type being a Corvette Audi or a RX7 IS350 etc.

I'll run the cars around at your spec and post up my times later. Who says I wouldn't want to run in season 2?

You don't run in this series now. Never said anything about season two. 👍

 

[SkengD]

Lets just quit the arguing and get some facts out , some numbers , some data .

 

[freshseth83]

Already available. Gave lap times, gave power/weight values. Equal length stints with no noticeable difference in tire wear rates. Slightly higher for the R8 at certain tracks but that can be fixed. On mediums, the Vette, R8 and GTR were all about .3-.6 second faster/slower than my Garaiya.

 

[phil bell]

This seems to vary for us, me and Zach are faster in the Vettes than our Rotary rockets. And not by abit. Strange..

 

[freshseth83]

Try 394hp and 404hp. And use no upgrades except racing exhaust. 1250kg. On the straights and acceleration it's definitely faster, but braking and cornering aren't any better.

 

[ZachAK47]

This seems to vary for us, me and Zach are faster in the Vettes than our Rotary rockets. And not by abit. Strange..

All about numbers like the guys been saying. Works for some and not for others. I don't doubt that Seth can get them to within .3-.5 but I can get it 1.5-2s quicker

 

[freshseth83]

All about numbers like the guys been saying. Works for some and not for others. I don't doubt that Seth can get them to within .3-.5 but I can get it 1.5-2s quicker

Where? What car comparisons? 1250kg for the Vette Z06 or ZR1? 394hp no upgrades at all except racing exhaust?

 

[ZachAK47]

Where? What car comparisons? 1250kg for the Vette Z06 or ZR1? 394hp no upgrades at all except racing exhaust?

Z06 no upgrades at all not even racing exhaust.

Tried so far at spa, grand valley and Suzuka.

If you feel those tracks are too biased then name me another one and I'll go try it out.

The problem is not its power or weight. But the torque it produces. It's torque is higher than the lexus and we all know the Lexus out accelerates anybody on the track. It's top speed isn't much greater like you say, but it's the rate at which it gets there that produces its massive advantage.

I don't believe adding new cars is wrong, just we can't get them evenly specced. A car that naturally generates something like 100 more BHP than our gt300s when power limited is always going to hold and advantage over it.

If your vote passes I'm more than willing this off season to help you reg them

 

[BOB0011]

Rather than argue about the performance of individual existing cars or adding new cars why don't we get a number of drivers to test all the existing cars and any proposed additions on several tracks and then share the data. I am sure that if the sample size is big enough and the results are consistent the answers will be self evident.

 

[TylerJDallas]

At this point there's so much lobbying for everyone's individual opinion, I think we have enough information to cast our votes and move on.

 

[freshseth83]

Z06 no upgrades at all not even racing exhaust.

Tried so far at spa, grand valley and Suzuka.

If you feel those tracks are too biased then name me another one and I'll go try it out.

The problem is not its power or weight. But the torque it produces. It's torque is higher than the lexus and we all know the Lexus out accelerates anybody on the track. It's top speed isn't much greater like you say, but it's the rate at which it gets there that produces its massive advantage.

I don't believe adding new cars is wrong, just we can't get them evenly specced. A car that naturally generates something like 100 more BHP than our gt300s when power limited is always going to hold and advantage over it.

If your vote passes I'm more than willing this off season to help you reg them

So what times were you getting on mediums at Grand Valley with 394hp in the Vette? Without trying too hard I was getting mid 1:51's. I never set my cars up for a serious lap time. I usually try to get it so the tires last. I'm not the best tuner and just set the cars up pretty close to eachother depending on FF FR MR etc.

 

[ZachAK47]

So what times were you getting on mediums at Grand Valley with 394hp in the Vette? Without trying too hard I was getting mid 1:51's. I never set my cars up for a serious lap time. I usually try to get it so the tires last. I'm not the best tuner and just set the cars up pretty close to eachother depending on FF FR MR etc.

Was hitting mid 51s, and at that time was hitting high 52s in the other cars learning the track.

Hadn't touched the tune on the Vette at all, all standard except adding weight and reducing power

 

[freshseth83]

So it's on pace with everyone else basically. You're faster with it so I think once you learn the track you'll be low 51's with the Vette, and high 51's with the GT300 car. Other guys are hitting low 51s with the GT300 cars already. I have had a tune on the Vette for a while, nothing special just messed with the transmission to hit a good top speed. The R8 is faster for me here, but about a second slower at Monza. I was better in the Garaiya at Monza than the R8. The GTR I was about even with a 1:52.0.

 

[CSLACR]

Z06 no upgrades at all not even racing exhaust.

Tried so far at spa, grand valley and Suzuka.

If you feel those tracks are too biased then name me another one and I'll go try it out.

The problem is not its power or weight. But the torque it produces. It's torque is higher than the lexus and we all know the Lexus out accelerates anybody on the track. It's top speed isn't much greater like you say, but it's the rate at which it gets there that produces its massive advantage.

I don't believe adding new cars is wrong, just we can't get them evenly specced. A car that naturally generates something like 100 more BHP than our gt300s when power limited is always going to hold and advantage over it.

If your vote passes I'm more than willing this off season to help you reg them

If you drove an RM Corvette, it certainly had racing exhaust.
Racing exhaust is standard with RM's and not a removable part once the RM is complete.

FYI I recently investigated a Z06 RM with GT300 cars around 305-335HP, and it's problem was absolutely, and indisputably, too high of a top speed.
When it's acceleration was on par, it reached over 5mph faster than any comparative GT300 car.
When it's top speed was on par, (within my 4mph radius that it had exceeded by 5mph) it's acceleration was very sluggish to the point it couldn't keep up between corners.

I'm not partaking in the series for multiple prior commitments, but I'm happy to share any information I've come across while testing.

 

[freshseth83]

The Vette is fast in the straights, but looks to me there are other GT300s which equal or better it's speed. The Autobachs Toyota MRS with 364hp 1170kg (I think season 1's spec?) reached the same top speed (255kmh) at the end of the straight on GVS as the Vette with 394hp.

 

[CSLACR]

The MR-S is an oddball GT300, which suffers from the same symptoms of the Corvette though.

Until we mandated minimum aero on the rest of the GT300's, we couldn't spec the MR-S with the rest well enough for our taste(see below). But like I said, it depends on how similar you want the cars too.

I recall a driver that greatly enjoyed driving the monstrous NSX(gt500's obviously), despite being clobbered by GT-R's in the corners, for some people it's the goal.

Our aim is to have every car have a legitimate chance to win at any track, and the Corvette makes that extremely difficult if not impossible, however if you want car choice to play more of a factor, it could genuinely be a solid choice.

 

[freshseth83]

You don't run success ballast. You don't run medium tires. You don't run as much hp. Those are the three big differences that make these cars able to compete.

 

[joetruckv8]

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