Just Raced Under The New Algorithms and Rules

[Voodoovaj]

The system can't judge who may benefit... it can judge contact and contact is avoidable.

No, the system can't judge intention, but it can estimate fault. It can judge when someone is off the racing line. It can judge when someone brakes too soon or too late. It can judge all these things because that's how the scoring system works! The penalties can be assessed along those lines if the scoring can be assessed along those lines.

This is a short cut solution that is poorly implemented and poorly thought out, probably because the game play staff is under manned. I sympathize with their work, and the dissent, but this is a very poor choice for them to make.

 

[Mirror_man]

I really wish they could make it so you can serve the penalty in the pits, way more convenient and safer.

Or .. as many have suggested to ghost the serving cars... I inclusively has an additional suggestion... An added command on the sliding panels as you race.. to... simply activate... Serving Penalization Time Mode!! That would automatically ghost the car, and slow it down until time was served or.. you interrupt (yes.. an option to interrupt should exist) the execution of the penalization!!

 

[JulesDennis]

You keep misquoting this (probably intentionally to further your argument). It only applies to ADDITIONAL penalties which are given if the original penalties are not served quickly.

I already pointed out -to you- a video in this very topic where an S/S driver gets a penalty when another makes a minor contact with him from behind.
You yourself said that as an B/S and A/S driver,you did not have this happening to you.
So a video that proves that someone at S/S can get a 3 sec penalty for getting a small hit from behind and your own experience that this do not happen in lower DR ranks proves my point.
It is you that avoid answering my questing:why did @hellZfirE do in order to get that penalty?
But in order to make it more clear lets say I am wrong about this and higher DR does not mean more strict penalties.
I did read the patch notes.Additional penalties for the same situation depending on your rating.
So if an S/S driver gets a penalty - example:for cutting track after a mistake-,will not only get a penalty for that but more extra time to serve compared to a lower rated player.This gives an advantage -in terms of penalties- to the lower ranked player because a lower driver will have to serve less additional time.
Imagine now that this means in races with mixed ranked players: DR S/A/B and SR S.And there are a lot of Sport mode races with mixed ratings as we all know.
Two drivers cut the same corner,in the same race,the same way in the very last lap.Both decide not to stop and carry that up until the end .The DR S driver gets an extra 10 sec penalty but the DR A gets an extra 5 sec penalty.
Does the DR A have an advantage or not for pretty much going the same thing with the DR S driver in the same race/corner/lap?

 

[Mr616]

The system can't judge who may benefit... it can judge contact and contact is avoidable.

This had me thinking. There are drivers who must see an accident about to happen but think "not my fault" so they turn in anyway, or take their line anyway, then when contact is made they cry "not my fault". Maybe the contact wasn't their fault, but they could still avoid the contact.

The overly aggressive, high win % but SR like a mountain range players will slowly realise that their way of racing is not the GT way. It will upset some to realise they are not quite what they they thought they were, and hopefully bump passing and saving SR through the race for that last lap lunge and knock somebody off line (but retaining SR) is a thing of the past.

 

[Satomiblood]

I'm still pretty satisfied with the updated algorithm. I've climbed back up to B/B and feel like I'm being rewarded for my efforts to race cleanly. I've been bumped around a few times by other drivers, but never have I received a negative SR or a penalty in those instances. I can't comment on higher ranked drivers and their issues with the current system because I'm not at their level (yet). Quite frankly, I'm not as concerned with them since I'm trying to improve my skillset as a driver. I suppose that opinion could change if I ever achieve S/S status. As of right now, though, the system seems fair.

 

[Voodoovaj]

This had me thinking. There are drivers who must see an accident about to happen but think "not my fault" so they turn in anyway, or take their line anyway, then when contact is made they cry "not my fault". Maybe the contact wasn't their fault, but they could still avoid the contact.

That would be penalized before as well. This exact action would result in the passer touching the door of the defending player (with his bumper) and result in a penalty for the passer.

The problem with the old method was that you could come in broadside and knock the other player HARD with the side of your car and get no penalty. Instead of making the hard contact more sensitive, they made ALL contact more sensitive and penalized higher ranking drivers more harshly.

What's happening now is that if I make a clean pass prior to turn in, with my car clearly in front before the corner, the outside player can turn into me and I get penalized anyway. Worse yet, B level players and lower can be excessively aggressive and get away with it because the higher ranking players always get the penalty.

So , in the same scenario you describe, let's say a B player is going to try to make the pass where the gap isn't really there. He dives in from too far back, doesn't complete the pass and hits me as I turn. Now, I get the penalty for his poor driving. What did he learn? Nothing. What did I learn? Don't race in Sport Mode.

Now, no more driving slower cars. If a car isn't capable of a top 10 time, you can't possibly risk using it. I used to like using those cars before, but not anymore. Actually, qualifying is a worse idea now. It's better and safer to keep the trouble in front of you. Start from the back and pick your spots. That's a far better strategy that having a C or B driver ruin my race.

Let's see how many brave souls enter the next oval events.

And although I don't have anything against cockpit players, cockpit view does obscure the visibility of cars along side you. Radar or no radar. Cockpit users will suffer.

I'm still pretty satisfied with the updated algorithm. I've climbed back up to B/B and feel like I'm being rewarded for my efforts to race cleanly. I've been bumped around a few times by other drivers, but never have I received a negative SR or a penalty in those instances. I can't comment on higher ranked drivers and their issues with the current system because I'm not at their level (yet). Quite frankly, I'm not as concerned with them since I'm trying to improve my skillset as a driver. I suppose that opinion could change if I ever achieve S/S status. As of right now, though, the system seems fair.

And there it is. B drivers can make contact and be fine.

So, I should not even hazard to venture into a room other than the FIA races. Full stop.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Imagine now that this means in races with mixed ranked players: DR S/A/B and SR S.And there are a lot of Sport mode races with mixed ratings as we all know.
Two drivers cut the same corner,in the same race,the same way in the very last lap.Both decide not to stop and carry that up until the end .The DR S driver gets an extra 10 sec penalty but the DR A gets an extra 5 sec penalty.

My understanding is that the additional penalty time is added after exceeding a set amount of penalty time and not serving the penalty within a quick enough time frame.

A DR S driver in my opinion should be held to a higher driver standard than a driver say in DR C class. Their skillset and car control along with their racing knowledge and experience should be superior to a driver racing in a lower class.

No different than comparing a RL driver in the top class of their profession to a driver racing at a club level in a local series. It would be a given that in most cases the pro will on a regular basis make better decisions and fewer mistakes than the club level racer.

Why even have upper classes in the game if the expectations of a bottom ranked driver is the same as the supposed best of the best?

I am also in the camp that the racing since this new addition to the penalty is better than it has been since the addition and influx of all the new players since the x-mas holiday season. I had about quit sport racing as it had gotten to where being bulldozed out of the way had become the normal method for many to make a pass.

Raced for the first time in almost two weeks yesterday and had the best races since the pre holiday period in what I experienced. I can only speak for my level and about 8 total races run so far under the system of course but I think it is a move in the right direction from my initial personal experience.

 

[Seb Weasel]

It's a long vid so I just watched the first 2 laps, first penalty is too harsh I agree. Not even sure why there was a penalty. Second one, clear corner cutting however. Anyway @hellZfirE himself mentioned he was liking the direction of the update, and I don't think it calls for throwing the whole game out the window. I'm curious to see more vids, so far this is the only one I've seen of this kind but thanks for pointing it out.
Sorry I wasted your time with off topic stuff! My attitude is just trying to remain positive. I don't know where you come from, but for me this is better than GT6 on many levels, and I appreciate the fact that the game is supported with regular updates and attempts to improve the system (which was my point, as I feel respected as a customer compared to other company's practices -looking at you EA! .
I see your point regarding beta testing. Unfortunately it probably cannot achieve real life data gathering and analysis like with 1/2 million players around the world. Besides and again, not wanting to antagonize you, but some people like the direction this is going...

There are some video's in this topic mate.Check out post #214 from @hellZfirE .Got tapped from behind and "earned" a 3 sec penalty for pretty much nothing.



After all these years of development and "closed beta testing" and releasing the "final" product,PD has no time left in my book.
We are using a "finished" product,we are not testing a "beta" or a program during developmet.
DLC,micro transactions or whatever have nothing to do with this topic.

I think it's tough to compare though... Not sure Robben had feedback from the exact same track and corner. It could be that another rank could have had that same unfair (we agree on that) penalty.
Unfortunately it's only conjecture until we have compelling evidence, or even better, explanation from PD regarding this issue. Which is why I think it's great to see videos from those unfair penalties to try to understand, but most importantly, avoid them.

I already pointed out -to you- a video in this very topic where an S/S driver gets a penalty when another makes a minor contact with him from behind.
You yourself said that as an B/S and A/S driver,you did not have this happening to you.
So a video that proves that someone at S/S can get a 3 sec penalty for getting a small hit from behind and your own experience that this do not happen in lower DR ranks proves my point.
It is you that avoid answering my questing:why did @hellZfirE do in order to get that penalty?
But in order to make it more clear lets say I am wrong about this and higher DR does not mean more strict penalties.
I did read the patch notes.Additional penalties for the same situation depending on your rating.
So if an S/S driver gets a penalty - example:for cutting track after a mistake-,will not only get a penalty for that but more extra time to serve compared to a lower rated player.This gives an advantage -in terms of penalties- to the lower ranked player because a lower driver will have to serve less additional time.
Imagine now that this means in races with mixed ranked players: DR S/A/B and SR S.And there are a lot of Sport mode races with mixed ratings as we all know.
Two drivers cut the same corner,in the same race,the same way in the very last lap.Both decide not to stop and carry that up until the end .The DR S driver gets an extra 10 sec penalty but the DR A gets an extra 5 sec penalty.
Does the DR A have an advantage or not for pretty much going the same thing with the DR S driver in the same race/corner/lap?

 

[Satomiblood]

And there it is. B drivers can make contact and be fine.

So, I should not even hazard to venture into a room other than the FIA races. Full stop.

*Shrugs* I'm not here to make enemies. I've been racing online since November and have witnessed my DR/SR bounce around quite a bit despite my efforts to play the game as intended. It was far more frustrating than enjoyable for me pre-update, but I still played through it. Now, things seem a lot better and I'm not being penalized for things I didn't instigate. It's not like I'm magically winning all of my races now. I still only have 2 wins to my credit in 400 tries and the highest ranking I've ever obtained was B/B, which I'm currently sitting at. Of course I'm going to favor something that's rewarding me for doing the right thing. I'm sorry that you guys dislike the changes. Maybe a future patch will tweak the algorithm so that you aren't being handed penalties left and right. But damn, it feels a bit vindicating for us lower ranked drivers who have continually stayed stuck in a pool of trolls, griefers, and new players. It felt like purgatory.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

This had me thinking. There are drivers who must see an accident about to happen but think "not my fault" so they turn in anyway, or take their line anyway, then when contact is made they cry "not my fault". Maybe the contact wasn't their fault, but they could still avoid the contact.

The overly aggressive, high win % but SR like a mountain range players will slowly realise that their way of racing is not the GT way. It will upset some to realise they are not quite what they they thought they were, and hopefully bump passing and saving SR through the race for that last lap lunge and knock somebody off line (but retaining SR) is a thing of the past.

There were a lot of SR S drivers who seemingly had no clue about how you have to leave space for the other driver when going into a turn with an overlapped vehicle. Even watching youtube channels, you'll see a youtuber with thousands of dollars invested into their sim rig and broadcast equipment, only to watch them wedge nudge into apexes from a car length behind or try to cut other drivers off on the apex all without any awareness that they're ruining the race.

I really don't know how they're supposed to get the memo on how this is all supposed to work. Once I learned what Sport was all about I went to real world racing message boards and videos to research actual driving etiquette. Clearly, most people didn't do this and the videos provided by the video game are far below par in educating these ideas. I'd imagine many of these people are just going to get confused and just quit the game.

 

[Cogan]

Initially I was impressed, finally the punters and rammers would be penalised, stupid of me to think that. Just finished a daily race in the GT1 where I got tipped/rammed from the rear while taking the racing line at normal speed and it gives me 3-10 second penalties and destroys the race. ****ing ridiculous, how is FIA races supposed to take place like this.

 

[bad_brain_1]

.

 

[John Crellin]

I really don't know how they're supposed to get the memo on how this is all supposed to work. Once I learned what Sport was all about I went to real world racing message boards and videos to research actual driving etiquette. Clearly, most people didn't do this and the videos provided by the video game are far below par in educating these ideas. I'd imagine many of these people are just going to get confused and just quit the game.

^^This

I have thought this since the beginning. It was odd to me that I had to go out an personally research etiquette. especially when it would be so simple for them to do a quick tutorial, or make a damn video clip that actually explains the rules and some general overtake theory. Maybe a Mission challenge style event where you have to make a clean overtake.... anything except the vague 2min video they have now... anything at all

 

[_ApexPredator]

See what you guys make of this Gr.3 daily on the new Blue Moon layout. It was my first time racing under the new algorithm, and a bit of a mixed bag; I'd love to hear some of your thoughts & opinions though - could I have avoided some penalties, were they fair, etc

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

^^This

I have thought this since the beginning. It was odd to me that I had to go out an personally research etiquette. especially when it would be so simple for them to do a quick tutorial, or make a damn video clip that actually explains the rules and some general overtake theory. Maybe a Mission challenge style event where you have to make a clean overtake.... anything except the vague 2min video they have now... anything at all

I still don't understand why PD thought that tutorializing these etiquette concepts would have been too difficult. Some of the Tutorial challenges currently in the game would have functioned fine if they would have just turned the penalty system on and decreased the density of the AI pack.

Instead you have to climb from 12th to 1st in 2 laps with penalties off. Most of those tutorial challenges completely undermined the entire design philosophy of the game in how it essentially trained players to dive bomb into first place.

The lack of driver etiquette training in the game is probably the single greatest flaw that still has the potential to undermine and kill this game.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Yes it sucks that you get penalized as well when getting hit from behind. However I have noticed that the person hitting me from behind usually gets a higher time penalty, albeit just one second difference.

There is room for improvement, yet the deterrent is there. You don't win anymore by bumping people out of the way. Sometimes I get an unfair penalty, I'm fine with it, I race for fun, don't really care about winning. I do care about close fair and clean battles, and I'm getting those much more frequently now.

If the penalty is less than 5 sec (where it starts counting up) I just race on and take it to the finish. No point endangering other people, and so what if I drop a couple places at the finish line. I know where I finished. The tapper usually slows down as they do care about losing places at the finish line, which is great, I don't see them again for the rest of the race and can race with the clean crowd.

The only time yesterday when my penalty exceeded 5 sec was from hitting a car serving a penalty that suddenly swerved in my path while trying to avoid him. He paid for it as well and will be more careful next time not to slow down to serve a penalty on the racing line after a high speed blind corner. One of the improvements PD can make is only make it possible to serve penalties on straights, turn the penalty time green to indicate where you can scrub it and add a flashing counter above the car showing the car is reducing its time penalty.

 

[_ApexPredator]

I still don't understand why PD thought that tutorializing these etiquette concepts would have been too difficult. Some of the Tutorial challenges currently in the game would have functioned fine if they would have just turned the penalty system on and decreased the density of the AI pack.

Instead you have to climb from 12th to 1st in 2 laps with penalties off. Most of those tutorial challenges completely undermined the entire design philosophy of the game in how it essentially trained players to dive bomb into first place.

The lack of driver etiquette training in the game is probably the single greatest flaw that still has the potential to undermine and kill this game.

^ Great post, you're spot on. They put the time & effort into having tutorials for accelerating & braking in a straight line... but just a quick video which can be easily ignored about the complexities of racing door-to-door with other drivers.
And as you say, the challenges with the AI drivers (12th to 1st in 2 laps) totally flies against that etiquette and careful racing philosophy that ought to be promoted far harder.

Wish I could like your post x10.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

And as you say, the challenges with the AI drivers (12th to 1st in 2 laps) totally flies against that etiquette and careful racing philosophy that ought to be promoted far harder.

It's really a missed opportunity. With a properly gamified etiquette tutorial they could have turned a bunch of 12 year old kids into legit sim race car drivers. Unfortunately, working with only the information the game provides they literally created a wave of dive bomber players who jumped right from the tutorial challenges into the online races.

These people don't visit this board, they don't keep up with the change notes, and they're not niche sim racer fans. They're going to play the way the game allows them to play until it's not fun anymore.

The only saving grace here is that GT has quickly become the de facto clean racing console game, which is drawing a small percentage of other players from other franchises. I mean, keep things in perspective, many of the fouls we are complaining about in GT are nothing but heavy petting compared to the online carnage that occurs in most other racing games. The fact that we're even comparing a $40 video game to iRacing says a lot.

 

[George Jakob]

Much Much better my results have skyrocketed ! now i can run my without the usual
Get killed at turn 1
Making somewhat of a comaback
Getting killed again
I enjoy it so much more now before they were times that i honestly regreted buing the game
Allthough in my case i think it is a bit too forgiving now.

 

[Seb Weasel]

Thanks for the vid, with commentary too! I have to say, some penalties might have been harsh (as you said we can't see them) but you were in a dirty race!
Since you asked for me you raced quite clean but I must say I think you deserved that penalty for your overtake on lap 6 (vs German driver). You were almost a whole car length behind his nose and pushed him wide... I think to "claim" an apex you must be ahead by the end of the braking zone.
Just my opinion!

As per the penalty fest, I agree it's ridiculous but the race wasn't clean at all so...

See what you guys make of this Gr.3 daily on the new Blue Moon layout. It was my first time racing under the new algorithm, and a bit of a mixed bag; I'd love to hear some of your thoughts & opinions though - could I have avoided some penalties, were they fair, etc

 

[GTWolverine]

Let's see how many brave souls enter the next oval events.

If it's at Blue Moon Bay, just don't qualify and start at the rear, or pull off the racing line to let everyone by, leave a large gap to the field in front of you, wait until the bump-drafting starts, then drive by everyone as they serve 3-second penalties. Easy win. In the VW van Sport Mode race at the Northern Isle oval a while back, I started 2nd and bump-drafted the leader the entire race - literally just floored it and pushed him around the whole track, including the turns, lap after lap - and got a CLEAN RACE BONUS after the fact, because it was only light contact of the sort you'd expect at an oval race that doesn't require any lifting or braking. Now doing that is impossible and would probably get both of us disqualified with the time penalties we'd accumulate...

Also, if you're really brave, Monza's chicanes sound truly terrifying with this new penalty system, and there's a Gr.1 C-race there today...

 

[FUNanywhere]

Some pens are harsh yes but the overall impact is for the good and it is visible.

A Guy decided to go at Speef of Light at T3 at Monza, boom ghosted . Bye Bye.

You can vrooom past back markers is a big thing as well.

 

[George Jakob]

I think i founs how you can get DQ at least one way that is lol by getting 58+ Sec penalty

 

[Chevy Heavy]

I've lost count of the amount of times I've said this but once they relax the top rank's collision measurement, they should be able to find a happy medium for everyone. I think they need to keep the tiered penalties based on ability though as contact happens a lot more often further down.

Disagree. Penalties should be handled the same across the board. It makes no sense letting lower tiered players get away with contact and not get punished for it. It's like teaching them bad habits. If they learn what is acceptable from the start, then when they progress to a higher rank they won't be wondering why they are receiving penalties for something they have been getting away with up til now.

The problem with GTS is that before the update everybody got away with too much. So the less skilled players progressed through the ranks through dirty tactics. Now that they are ranked DR/A or DR/S they are still using these same tactics because that's what they have been getting away with all along. So now everybody must relearn per PD's rules. They are taking a step in the right direction by trying to purge these dirty drivers with the new penalty system. They just went too extreme in the changes.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Also, if you're really brave, Monza's chicanes sound truly terrifying with this new penalty system, and there's a Gr.1 C-race there today...

Nope, I saw that and said nope, nope, nope.

I can navigate the carnage normally, but not without some tap from another driver who is spinning or coming back onto the track without care. Since it's a hands off policy now, there is no way I am ever running Monza.

And I still don't see how this solves the problem of 99% of players. If a penalty system becomes more stringent as you climb the ranks, that means no one is learning as they climb and they will only learn their lesson at the cost of someone else's race every time.

And then if you say "well, you're good, avoid the contact". Fine, I avoid the contact and the dumbass who made the move that I had to avoid still learns nothing because I was skilled enough to avoid the contact.

I would be grumpy with this system if it were a blanket system, but as a blanket system, everyone is learning the same lessons along the way. But it isn't a blanket system, and I am going to be the one that pays the price for some other person's lesson (because I have in most cases).

I've been on the other end of this before. I get it. I've been nudged out of the way on a pass, but in those cases, I can fight back and try to take the position back. Now, nope. Penalty for being hit from behind and then I have to serve that penalty which takes me out of touch with the person who caused it AND I lose position to other drivers in the mean time.

Before - unsportsmanlike nudge from behind. I get grumpy. I lose 1 place and I get on with my race and try to reclaim my spot

Now - unsportsmanlike nudge. I get penalized. I have to essentially stop on track. I lose multiple places and my race is ruined.

That is never going to seem better to me no matter how many times you tell me it is.

 

[kilesa4568]

Regarding the etiquette, haven't we all seen enough motor sport on TV to know what's a good move and what's bad?

Most of us have got common sense so if a move looks risky, try listening to it once in a while. It's often informative.

 

[Mr616]

There were a lot of SR S drivers who seemingly had no clue about how you have to leave space for the other driver when going into a turn with an overlapped vehicle. Even watching youtube channels, you'll see a youtuber with thousands of dollars invested into their sim rig and broadcast equipment, only to watch them wedge nudge into apexes from a car length behind or try to cut other drivers off on the apex all without any awareness that they're ruining the race.

I really don't know how they're supposed to get the memo on how this is all supposed to work. Once I learned what Sport was all about I went to real world racing message boards and videos to research actual driving etiquette. Clearly, most people didn't do this and the videos provided by the video game are far below par in educating these ideas. I'd imagine many of these people are just going to get confused and just quit the game.

This ^^

I've just had a thought. Could it be that lower SR:S players are getting matched with less clean, or less careful drivers? I hold 99 SR a lot of the time. Rarely drop below 94. Could it be that if your SR is more sporadic that the game experience changes severely making the new penalties seem more harsh?

All I'm thinking is that there is such a polarisation of experience it can't all be down to driving/racing standards, or is it?

 

[George Jakob]

Nope, I saw that and said nope, nope, nope.

I can navigate the carnage normally, but not without some tap from another driver who is spinning or coming back onto the track without care. Since it's a hands off policy now, there is no way I am ever running Monza.

And I still don't see how this solves the problem of 99% of players. If a penalty system becomes more stringent as you climb the ranks, that means no one is learning as they climb and they will only learn their lesson at the cost of someone else's race every time.

And then if you say "well, you're good, avoid the contact". Fine, I avoid the contact and the dumbass who made the move that I had to avoid still learns nothing because I was skilled enough to avoid the contact.

I would be grumpy with this system if it were a blanket system, but as a blanket system, everyone is learning the same lessons along the way. But it isn't a blanket system, and I am going to be the one that pays the price for some other person's lesson (because I have in most cases).

I've been on the other end of this before. I get it. I've been nudged out of the way on a pass, but in those cases, I can fight back and try to take the position back. Now, nope. Penalty for being hit from behind and then I have to serve that penalty which takes me out of touch with the person who caused it AND I lose position to other drivers in the mean time.

Before - unsportsmanlike nudge from behind. I get grumpy. I lose 1 place and I get on with my race and try to reclaim my spot

Now - unsportsmanlike nudge. I get penalized. I have to essentially stop on track. I lose multiple places and my race is ruined.

That is never going to seem better to me no matter how many times you tell me it is.

Im racing there so far so good exept the last one where i got a 58 second penalty for no vig resson and i was about to get DQ so i DNF.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Im racing there so far so good exept the last one where i got a 58 second penalty for no vig resson and i was about to get DQ so i DNF.

I'm curious what your DR was when you started and what it was when you got the penalty.

 

[George Jakob]

I'm curious what your DR was when you started and what it was when you got the penalty.

Nothing changed im stil B-B